Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Combat Droids: A Focus Thread
As TH stated in his responses to the community, there is obviously a huge divide within our community between those who would like to have DEs craft and operate combat droids (DE only) and those who believe that combat droids should be separated out into the so-called Droid Handler class ("crafter only" DEs). With the first combat droids planned soon, we need to come up with a consensus as a community as to what we want. I will attempt here to put forward the best arguments of both sides in order to kick start the discussion.
DE Crafter/User Arguments (DE Only Combat Droids)
- With so many skill points already spent on being a DE (Master DE, Master Artisan), we shouldn't have to spend more skill points on a droid-related profession to actually use our own product.
- CH can get their combat pets (tame) and use them as well, why can't DEs?
DE Crafter Only (pro-Droid 'Handler') Arguments
- Combat droids will be less powerful if they are DE only than if they were managed by a separate profession.
- DE only combat droids would make us "Uber", "Flavor of the Month" and subject us to significant nerfing.
- CH must now go to a crafter (BE) to get the best possible pets, whereas before these pets were tameable in the wild (with vehicle patch/creature balance).
- DEs wishing to be combatants using droids can drop other combat/crafting skills and assign the points to the "DH" profession (which really needs a better name).
- Giving DE only combat droids invites "03s" - 3133+ DEs - into the profession.
- DE Only combat droids obviously cannot be sold, so they do not address the prime complaint of many DEs - lack of cash flow.
I've made obvious before which side of the fence I'm sitting on and my loss of reasons for DE Only droids makes it clear here as well. However, it's my goal here to kick start a discussion and come to an eventual consensus.
My challenge to the community:
- Add positives or negatives you see that I haven't listed to either side of the argument and elaborate.
- Try to keep an open mind and see the other camp's perspective. Do not flame or belittle the opinions of others.
- Come to a consensus that most of us can live with and that the devs can use as a template for the combat droid design
- Provide viable, balanced alternatives to the DE Only and Droid Handler options if you see them, elaborating on your idea
Let's get them an answer, so we can have cool combat droids we all like.
that would just be completely and utterly stupid ... to make another class to control droids... Oh i finally finished this probot i built it i know everything about it every gear every lever. Oh no i don't know how to make it attack ..
where is the sense in that ? DE's should be able to control droids they make it is the only logical choice
KKCS wrote:
that would just be completely and utterly stupid ... to make another class to control droids... Oh i finally finished this probot i built it i know everything about it every gear every lever. Oh no i don't know how to make it attack ..
where is the sense in that ? DE's should be able to control droids they make it is the only logical choice
By you're reasoning, you also built that medical module in the droid, why can't you use it without medic skills? Or what about weaponsmiths, they know every piece and every line of their guns, does that make them good at using it? There is a large difference between the knowledge of how to create something/how it works and how to use it effectively. You need to have knowldege of combat, tactics, manuevers, and things along that sort of line to effectively lead a droid into battle.
The one thing I would point out that I don't think you missed, but you didn't hit quite right is the overall effect of the "1337 D3's" entering the profession. Normally this wouldn't have a huge impact, as you could just ignore them and go on you're way. But with the relatively small number of DE's currently in existance it wouldn't take them long to become a majority. This can shift the devs focus from the original intent of droids (as stated by them) as the "swiss army knife" of SWG to the next CH, as that is what the majority of these would want.
As for those that say why shouldn't it be a hybrid profession, that would be fine, if it actually came from too different areas. If you look at all other hybrid professions (smuggler, BH, CM, can't think of any others off the top of my head) they all have requirements in two distinct skill areas (which is what makes them hybrids). BH's need both scout and combat, CM's need both medic and combat, smugglers need unarmed and pistol. Not only do all these require skills from multiple areas (which is why they are hybrids) but they also require significantly more skill points than DE. Not only does DE only come from one skill area, but there isn't a single profession that takes less skill points to master (though there are a number that take the same number of skill points). If you really want to make DE a hybrid profession that has combat skills (which would be what you are doing with DE only droids) then you should require ranged support skills (just an example, but the one that makes the most sense).
At least a DE should be able to call multiple combat Droids at once...3 roger rogers please!
All the CH and Weaponsmith examples I agree need a good deal of training up and over creating the actual item to use it. However, droids are in a category all themselves.None of those CH or WS items include a potentially powerartificial intelligence. Everytime I craft a Advanced Brain for my droids I would like to think it was actually being as the name implies, advanced. If you really wanted to break it down, it would require a DE to program the droids everytime for someone. Something I'm sure you'll agree that no one wants. But the actual use of the droid... I'd like to think that is a bi-product of my craftsmanship 
Perhaps they should come up with a personal stat based on "mind" level to actually be intelligent to use the droid..dunno. Otherwise, based on my reasoning above I can't seea droid userskill.
Figsta Ola'nar (Figsta Cybertronics)
Master Droid Engineer. Master Artisan. Master Architect
I don't see a droid user skill as being the solution, I thinkit would be better to work it into current professions/skill trees. Possibly cert one to anyone with ranged support 4, another one for squad leaders, another one for BH's, that kind of thing. This would be giving them to people who would have the skills to effectively use them in combat (or for another RP type excuse these people would be allowed by Imperial law to use them).
With any of the suggestions you have to ignore some bit of how things *should* work, since this isn't reality. With my suggestion you ignore the fact that it could have a really great AI, but with the idea that it has the really great AI you run into the problem of wouldn't you need someone who is an expert in tactics to program a combat AI?
This is something the professional communityis never going "come to a consensus" about. Too many folks are afraid of becoming "flavor of the month" and losing the exclusivity of their markets -and too many other folks are worried about never getting good enough combat droids to challenge the CH/BE handlers lock on high end pets.
As I see it, there will never be a "droid operator" profession. It goes against the whole concept of droids as artificial sentient beings. On the other hand we will NOT be allowed to break the CL-10 cap for pets that can be used by anyplayer at any level.
So we'll either see low to mid level droids spec'd to specific professions... a hell of a balancing act considering that the devs want to move away from pet dependence and toward specific roles for each profession (read TH's combat thread), or we'll see multiple low-to-mid or single high level droids spec'd to the DE class.
Or we won't see any.
Forget Droidekas that could make a couple of Jedi flee... if they aren't spec'd to DE, all we'll see are pale shadows of canon combat machines.
Can we please have a mature discussion that doesn't degenerate into calling ideas "completely and utterly stupid", 1-starring posts and arguing about that within a few posts into the thread? Just ignore those who are disruptive- "don't feed the trolls".
Jenden Wrote:
Not only does DE only come from one skill area, but there isn't a single profession that takes less skill points to master (though there are a number that take the same number of skill points).
When calculating the skill point spend for MDE for comparitive purposes, I always include the skill point spend needed for Master Artisan because of our highest-in-the-game dependancy on it. When you add in MA, DE goes from a relatively cheap crafting profession to the most expensive (skill point wise). While there are some DEs out there who don't have Master Artisan, it's been my observation that they tend to be the ones doing much less sales volume than those with MA.
Figsta Wrote:
All the CH and Weaponsmith examples I agree need a good deal of training up and over creating the actual item to use it. However, droids are in a category all themselves.None of those CH or WS items include a potentially powerartificial intelligence.
A very neat point. I'd counter two things. First, from a pure game mechanics and balance standpoint, why should we be special or any different than any of those other classes? Secondly, I don't think we should let RP reasons set the way something should work. Rather, game mechanics and balance should set the way something works, and the RP reasons should be invented and used to justify that instead. Otherwise, the argument can be extended out to justify game-breakers like "why can't we have personal Droideka armies? Why isn't the Death Star available as an Imperial faction perk?"- an extreme example, but you see my point.
To justify the droid user, one could for instance conjure the RP reason that it takes a great deal of understanding of how the artificially intelligent droid mind works to command the droid and that it's a science separate in and of itself from that of construction. Remember that droids in the SW universeexhibit free will (a hallmark, in fact, of true AI) and unique personas- take IG-88, Artoo's streak of willful defiance, ThreePio's unique neuroses or the presence in the universe of restraining bolts. The droid user class would understand the "inner workings" of the droid AI, using that knowledge to control the droid more effectively.
Jenden Wrote:
I don't see a droid user skill as being the solution, I thinkit would be better to work it into current professions/skill trees. Possibly cert one to anyone with ranged support 4, another one for squad leaders, another one for BH's, that kind of thing.
Attaching certs to existing professions is one of my favorite ideas mechanically, but it's got serious ramifications when you look at it from a balance perspective. The problem is that, like the DE only idea, this makes combat droids "free" - more power for no additional skillpoint spend. You'd either have to find underpowered existing professions to attach these certs to (and arguably, the right way to get them to the correct power is to increase their current abilities instead), or the resultant combat droids would have to be so low powered as to be incidental in balance considerations.
Therearentan Wrote:
A well thought out post, but ultimately you're fighting a lost cause I'm afraid.
The Dev's are attatched to this CL 10 limit. As long as they are attatched to this, there will never be any Droids worth anything once you get a couple boxes into your Novice. At that point, the stuff you fight will kill any CL 10 so quickly it'll be useless.
The affinity for CL10 is for those who are "uncertified commoners" - those who have spent no additional skill points breaching the cap. What we're talking about here is ways to spend skill points to breach the CL10 cap through certification - either by becoming a DE, or by inventing and becoming members of a Droid Operator class.
GrimJakk Wrote:
As I see it, there will never be a "droid operator" profession. It goes against the whole concept of droids as artificial sentient beings.
The beauty of fiction is that you can invent fictional loopholes to get you out of just about any jam. See my challenges to the RPer argument above, and RP reasons why it might not be that simple.
Consensus or not, this is turning out to be a good discussion. Keep it up!
To justify the droid user, one could for instance conjure the RP reason that it takes a great deal of understanding of how the artificially intelligent droid mind works to command the droid and that it's a science separate in and of itself from that of construction
It really annoys me about the complete lack of logic that the people that use this argument employ. Yes, AI, that means free will. That means they'll ignore you should they choose to. How is that any different to commanding something else with intelligence - a human? If you can explain that to me satisfactorily, then you may have a valid point, but right now, that is a completely invalid argument about why a DE is more effective at controlling a droid than anyone else would be. Precisely because of that free will, a DE will be just as useless (or as good) as anyone else commanding one. In fact, the people that would be most effective at commanding are those that have been given training in commanding a lot of free thinking entities (ie people) - Squad Leaders.
In fact, I will take this a step further and argue that a DE would be one of the worst people to command them. Think about RL and social/command situations. Why do engineers have a stereotype of being non-social, reclusive people? It's because their mind thinks in a particular way that is very analytical, but very poor at communication. Look at industry where the engineering professions have their own skill tree and progression path through corporate structures - newbie, engineer, senior engineer, design lead, project lead etc etc. None of these require specific interpersonal management skills. Those that do have these skills end up leaving the engineering profession altogether and become management. That same argument can be applied here, to make DE be the same thing as WS/AS/Chef/whatever. There are those that are good at making things becuase their brain works that way, and those that are good at taking tools that they have been given and using them effectively. A "pure" DE doesn't have the skills to command because they are too narrow minded (for want of a better term) to be able to command other free-thinking entities, whether it be a human, droid or creature.
The affinity for CL10 is for those who are "uncertified commoners" - those who have spent no additional skill points breaching the cap. What we're talking about here is ways to spend skill points to breach the CL10 cap through certification - either by becoming a DE, or by inventing and becoming members of a Droid Operator class.
I've long been a proponent of Droid Certification, but unfortunately, it appears it's not going to happen.
As long as the Developers remain attatched to the Forced Grouping which they are indicating they are moving to, Certifications and High Level Droids aren't going to happen.
What I mean is this, read through the Combat Thread Thunderheart posted a couple days ago. A fair portion of that, especially the "Specialization" portion, indicates they are moving towards a Forced Grouping atmosphere. Specialization is a nice way of saying "Combat Roles" which is a nice way of saying Forced Grouping. It means that classes are given very specific strengths and weaknesses they need another class to overcome. Because the other interpretations are exactly what the current system provides, as I as a Pistoleer can't use a Rifle or Carbine, I am specialized.
Additionally, the recent movement to CL 10 creatures for Non-CH pets, and the limitation of even Troopers to PvP and Faction only indicates they do not want Players with AI groups any longer. They wish to push Players to group with other Players. Forced Grouping.
This is going somewhere, I swear
As such, creating a Certification system will outright kill their efforts elsewhere. At that point, Players are once again able to circumvent their Forced Grouping system by again providing them with reasonably usefull AI pets. It returns them to where we stand now.
The issue at this point is not Combat Droids, or a Certification System, or a Droid Handler class. It is the question of Soloing vs Forced Grouping. If this is going to be a Forced Grouping game, then > CL 10 combat droids cannot exist for the majority. Nor can Surgicals that heal you as you fight. Droid Engineers *will* suffer because of the Forced Grouping mentality they are moving to, as they can avoid giving DE any usefull combat droids. CH is something they can't do anything about, and thus it will continue to exist.
Further, as long as DE is compared to CH in the Devs minds, DE will *always* suffer. Because there won't be a Cert system for just droids. It'll go in as a CL system similiar to what exists in CH so they don't "Devalue CH pets".
It's a lost cause as long as the Devs retain their CL 10 and Forced Grouping mentality 
BlueMongoth - as I said before, game mechanics have to drive RP, rather than having RP drive game mechanics as you suggest. Things often have to work differently in a game based on a work of fiction than the fiction would dictate they should, because what the fiction dictates is not always best for gameplay. It's a different medium, and what happens is much like what happens when a book is turned into a movie or TV show, or a movie is turned around into a book. Things get changed around or lost in the translation because one medium has different requirements and presentations than another.
SWG is relatively unique as an MMO in that it's based on an existing body of fiction that sets out a lot of concrete rules for the universe. Other MMOs have the advantage of writing their own fiction as they go along, thus allowing them to an extent to posess RP driven mechanics. The problem is that written and film works of fiction have no balance requirements. In fact, characters are set up as protagonists and antagonists, we root for the protagonist and enjoy the experience all the same - terribly unbalanced. Video games, on the other hand, have to be balanced because no one likes to lose or be significantly less powerful than someone else (certainly not all or most of the time). In this regard, SWG has to occasionally break the "rules" for gameplay purposes.
The point is that while the RP status of a droid as AI dictates anyone should be able to use it, the mechanics of that don't work in a video game.
Therearentan Wrote:
As long as the Developers remain attatched to the Forced Grouping which they are indicating they are moving to, Certifications and High Level Droids aren't going to happen.
You're right in that TH's post has some as yet unknown consequences for the combat system. I've always thought of the game system as "encouraged grouping" though. You can enter combat without a medic/doctor, or without a CH "meat shield" and you might be successful. Grouping with others who can fill in your weaknesses (and you theirs) increases your chances, even in the current system. I think there'll always be a place for soloing, because not only is it a valid playstyle preferred by a lot of people, but removing the ability to do so "locks out" the casual player logging on for a 1 hour session to kill time. We'll see what it all means, but I think it's a positive signal that they're going forward with combat droids as a high priority even in light of the coming balances to the combat system.