Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: I finally realized what was REALLY bothering me. It's us.
Zorkk
Sat Oct 23, 2004 8:51 pm
#14
Three cheers for Straker!!!
you've nailed it. Hopefully someone important can read that and say "doh" why didn't we do this?!?
Z
duncje
Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:10 pm
#15
GnomeAd wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
The comment in yellow is what bugs me. JTL was the PERFECT chance to do that.
Yet it wasn't done.
Why should it have been? Why should we have gotten more lovin with JtL than say the Pikemen or the Weaponsmith?
Message Edited by Straker_Atrella on 10-23-2004 08:34 PM
Message Edited by GnomeAd on 10-23-2004 10:52 PM
Well, we were told that droids would be an integral part of spaceflight, instead droids are optional. But we've been lied to before.
/shrug
A lot of us are ok with droids the way they are now. Some aren't. But the truth is, droids could (and should) be so much more than they are in this game. Droids are a vital part of Star Wars lore. In SWG, they're merely optional.
I came back to this game wanting to be nothing but a DE. Why? Because I love droids.But I'm disappointed as a fan of Star Wars by the integration (or lack thereof) of droids into everyday duties in this game.
And GnomeAd, JtL is fun, darn fun. But everyone knows you can't make hyperspace jumps without a droid or a flight computer in Star Wars. 
babyblue_d
Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:17 pm
#16
Straker_Atrella wrote:
Ok second Postto Baby and Electro,
I understand that not everybody wants money or needs a lot of it. That is up to you. Yet because that is your philosphy, doesn't mean it should be everybodies.
andI never said it should be.
look to me it seems you ar mad at us for "takeing it lieing down". I was explaning why thats the cas for me. you say we should all be mad becouse "we are geting farther and farther befind in the econimy" wellI'm not mad at the devs andI dont feelI should be just so you can feel better. that serves to help no one. I think there doing a great job with the game as a ex MMORPG server admin and develiper for a UO free server that made it to the top 20 of a 200 server list.I have a lot of respect for what it takes to do what thay do, andI know how it feels to work for weeks on a project to make it funner for all only to be told it's not good enoff.
as for being needed the devs have told us droids will nerver replace a player funtion. but if we had decay then that would improve the situation 100 fold. look at it like this if a doc had to replace a droid every 500 - 2000 calls or get a new medical mod every 500 -2000 buffs. you would see a huge swing in sales. not becouse its needed but becouse it sucks without it. its ALL about decay.
look if the deves had made the flight comps take more sub componets whay would we be yelling about? thats ez "comon oure stuff already takes to many subcomponts and the devs have made it worse".
Straker_Atrella
Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:17 pm
#17
GnomeAd wrote:
Straker,
I think I've finally figured out what's bothering you...It's you. You're unhappy because DEs don't make as much money as Armorsmiths or Weaponsmiths. You're unhappy with what we got out of JtL. You're unhappy with our response to JtL. Let's face it...you're unhappy. As far as I can see, you only have two choices here. Get over it or go do something else.
You can get over it by stop trying to make DE something it's not. DEs aren'tthe central rolein SWG. That's just the way things are. Looking at the game as a whole, I just don't see that changing. Ask your self what you would do with DEs if you had the power to make us anything you wanted. Then ask yourself how that would affect the game and the other players. Should you be required to have a droid to fly a ship? How would that be beneficial to the new player who only has 1k starting money and wants to get into space? Should a droid be required to heal wounds? How would that be fair to existing Doctors and Medics? The fact is that we don't have one key role in SWG, but we do have a supporting role in just about every profession. How would the absence of droids effect this game? Imagine Doctors only being able to heal wounds and buff in hospitals. Imagine only being able to craft in your house or by a public crafting station. We play a minor supporting role in this game. You CAN make money as a DE. It's not easy, but nothing worthwhile really is.
I know more long term DEs than I do long term Weaponsmiths or Armorsmiths. Why? Once you've maxed out your bank account (takes them about two months of playing) what is there for you to do? There's only so much to buy, only so much you can make. It might be an old joke, but money doesn't buy happiness. A person with 200 Million credits is no happier than a person with 100 Million credits. If you're going to be a DE, you have to learn to accept our role in this game and be happy with it.
The other choice is to go do something else. Want to have as much money as a Weaponsmith? Go be a Weaponsmith! It only costs 63 skill points. Better yet, drop being a crafter all together and just run Janta missions all day. See how long that keeps you interested. There again, once you reach a maxed out bank account, where's the fun.
Look, I can see that you're unhappy. Anyone who's been a DE for any length of time has been where you are now. We yelled, screamed, begged and pleaded with the devs to do SOMETHING...ANYTHING. Heck, even TK's almost been banned quite a few times. Eventually, we've all made one of the choices above. Only you can make yourself happy. I see you as a valuable member of the DE community. I'd hate to lose you. But if you're really not happy being a DE, maybe it is time for you to move on to something else. After all, this is a game. It's supposed to be fun.
I'm not asking for DE to be "central" to the game. I don't want it to be better then everyhting else. I just want it to be equal. All crafting professions should be equal.
What advantage does somebody with 200 million over somebody with 10 million have? A lot.
For example, a good Copper and Steel hasn't spawned on our Server for over 6 months. This means that when a batch of it goes up for auction it goes for a lot. If 100k copper goes for 6 million, who can afford it more, the one with 200 Million, or the one with 10 Million? What if it goes for 150 cpu?
So basically your post is EXACTLY what I am talking about. You say, if you want to make money don't be a DE. Why should it be like that? Instead of rollnig over and accepting that point of view, we should be trying (in a good way,) fix it.
I LIKE Droids, I LIKE money, I LIKE being able to buy things. There is no reason that all of those should not fit together.
Straker_Atrella
Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:22 pm
#18
GnomeAd wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
The comment in yellow is what bugs me. JTL was the PERFECT chance to do that.
Yet it wasn't done.
Why should it have been? Why should we have gotten more lovin with JtL than say the Pikemen or the Weaponsmith?
What new Pikeman features were added, what new Weaponsmith items were added? None.
This is exactly my Point. A new Droid system WAS added, it was made and developed. Time was spent on making the new items, time WAS spent on integrating Droids into space.
If the time was spent anyway, why not do it right? Why repeat EXACTLY the same mistakes from before?
I'm not asking for the boardsto be in an uproar. I have been around a little longer then my post date would seem.
We did get a lot in the Droid publishes, a lot of our big money makers (relatively) are the Harvestor Droids, and Bomb Droids. So the squeeky wheel did get some oil.
Again, I'm not asking for us to go off the deep end. I just think we need to let them know they messed it up.
Way to many people happy making 1k off an item. Saying "well at least I'm selling something." I don't want the boards to be in flames, but at least let people know they really mucked this up for DEs.
I want clear logical threads asking why they did us wrong. Then Drashk can lead the Devs to them.
If the Devs actually visited our page today, they would think we are happy with JTL.
I AM happy with JtL. It's an amazing and revolutionary accomplishment for an MMO. Most importantly, it's FUN. I don't judge everything in this game based upon weather it's good for DEs. I judge it upon weather it's fun. This is a GAME after all.
JTL is excellent,I enjoy it. I never said JTL was bad, I never even said droid FUNCTIONALITY was bad, it's not. I like it. What I am saying is bad is that they didn't give a second thought to Droid Engineers themselves.
They had to build the system anyways, why not do it right?
Message Edited by Straker_Atrella on 10-23-2004 08:34 PM
Message Edited by GnomeAd on 10-23-2004 10:52 PM
babyblue_d
Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:26 pm
#19
Also let me say that im not flaming peeps but I LOVE to add to a health debate. so nothing i say should be taken peronal
)
well in the PnP gameyou can but its faster if you use a droid or flight comp (and the devs told us no on that in beta
duncje wrote:
But everyone knows you can't make hyperspace jumps without a droid or a flight computer in Star Wars. :smileytongue:
)Message Edited by babyblue_d on 10-23-2004 09:27 PM
GnomeAd
Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:33 pm
#20
Again Straker, I ask you...what EXACTLY do you wish they would have done? We got more out of JtL than any other existing profession except Tailors. What else do you want?
Straker_Atrella
Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:40 pm
#21
GnomeAd wrote:
Again Straker, I ask you...what EXACTLY do you wish they would have done? We got more out of JtL than any other existing profession except Tailors. What else do you want?
What did we "get?" Profit doesn't mean it's worthwhile profit. Also FYI, Armorsmiths got 2 new types of Armor to sell.
I posted this earlier,maybe you missed it.
The origional 3 is what should have been done.
I'm not suggesting we go off on rants, and attack devs ancestry for example. What I am suggesting is that we at least stop ACTING happy about it.
We can let the Devs know in our calm rational DE way.
Sorry man, I'm not buying the not enough coding time point of view.3 SIMPLE things could have been done to make Droids better in JTL.
1. You need a Droid or FC to fly all but the starter ship. You can't fly without one.
2. Droids or FC's wear out when a ship dies, or they can be targetted.
3. FC's have some meat to them. I'm not even talking experimentation. Some more resources, Advanced Droid brains, Sensors, or Microsensors, already in game things.
While not perfect, it would have been far better then what we did get. People would have at least needed FC's or Droids, a repeat market, and a little more to them, so they arn't selling for 1k.
In Beta, we saw bigger changes then those done in a matter of days. You can't honestly tell me that those 3 things would have been all that hard to code in from the BEGINING.
How could it have been done TOTALLY right?
Let's say the Devs wanted to "fix" DE as a profession, by making it better in space. Here is how it could have been done.
1. First, do number 1-3 up above, that's crucial.
2. Make FC's able to hold 5 modules (equaling an ADV R3 with a data pad.)
3. Add new module types. Such as a Reactor Management Module, Shield Management Module, Imperial Communication Module, IFF module, and many more. Basically a module for each type of Pilot "program." You can still do each of the programs without a module, just ont as well.
4. Make it so on these new Modules Resource Quality and Exp matter. Give a few things to experiment on. The better the Module, the better the Program works.
People could just buy Simple Astro Droids or FC's if they didn't have a lot of cash, they would NEED them in fact to fly. However, if they wanted to perform at their best, they would need the FC's or Droids with modules. Better Modules, performed better.
We would actually have a high end market, that had Decay, that was desired. Possibly, no other ground Decay would be needed.
I'll 100% buy that there may not have been enough time or devs to make this last part, it is much more complex.
I wont buy that for the first part though, they built the system from scratch, they SHOULD and COULD have built that in as well.
Message Edited by Straker_Atrella on 10-23-2004 09:43 PM
Drashk
Sat Oct 23, 2004 9:42 pm
#22
I just wanted everyone to know that I am watching this thread. Many good points have been brought and it got my brain juices a flowing. I've got a couple ideas that I'll post, after I hammer them out a little more. It may will take me a couple of days to do so, since I like to be on the thorough side. (See DE 101 thread.:robotsurprised
I am going to start up a new thread, and sticky it, that puts a question to what has been brought up here.
I also wanted to compliment everyone in this thread, so far, for keeping things very civil.
I'm going to refrain from adding my personal thoughts here, for the moment. I think this is one of those times where the Correspondent needs to just shut up and listen. 
Straker_Atrella
Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:02 pm
#23
Thx for the post Drashk, and thx for reading and considering.
I want to stress again that this is not an attack on the DE's as people. I just feel that we have fallen into a mindset that is bad for the profession.
Now that people have read what I said. Try this. Step away from the Droid Point of view, and just look at the economy point of view.
Think about 100 Million credits beging added to the economy every day from Missions. Not being passed around, ADDED. How much of that 100 Million are you getting as a DE?
That money has HUGE affects on the economy, due to it, prices will continue to rise on EVERYTHING. If you can't keep up, you will be left behind.
Just look at the Economy point of view.
Now back to DE's. I wonder how happy people will be getting 1k for a FC when they need to pay 1 million plus for a ship. It's coming, be ready.
GnomeAd
Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:12 pm
#24
Straker_Atrella wrote:
1. You need a Droid or FC to fly all but the starter ship. You can't fly without one.
Do you really think that's fair to Shipwrights? How would you feel if we had to buy combat modules from Weaponsmiths? I know we have more interdependencies than other professions. Would you wish something worse on Shipwrights?
2. Droids or FC's wear out when a ship dies, or they can be targetted.
So we get decay from ship destruction but Shipwrights don't? Your ship blows up. Your engines are ok, your shields are just fine..but that R2 unit...he's a goner.
3. FC's have some meat to them. I'm not even talking experimentation. Some more resources, Advanced Droid brains, Sensors, or Microsensors, already in game things.
Why would you wish this on us? Remember the huge outcry when CCSCs had to have Droid Brains?
Us having a part in JtL was a gift. I honestly think they started out with just FCs and they were made by Shipwrights. Then they included Astromechs with Data modules in some ships. Rather than having two professions competing for one market, they gave us the FCs. DEs aren't the focus of JtL. We shouldn't base our profession around it. We should be much more. We got a piece of JtL. Take it and run with it. Make what you can and enjoy it.
I want more for DEs just like all of us. But it can't come at the expense of other professions or other players as a whole.
Nell2ThaIzzay
Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:23 pm
#25
I agree with Straker. I mean, seriously... I love droids too. That's why I won't leave the profession. But in all honesty, it's a STUPID move to do. I *cannot* support myself as a DE. I am not a master, so I have nothing really to offer to the community. Whenever I ask if people need droids, they say they'll go to a master who can make them the best droids. People don't come to me asking for droids, because I can't make them what I want.
I have to reply on selling droids grossly underpriced on the bazaar to make my money. That's barely enough cash flow to support my harvestors and my houses. So if I have no money to support my harvestors, I have no resources to continue crafting droids, and I can't continue through the ranks of droid engineering. It's a nasty circle that I found myself in my first time around playing this game, and is the reason why I left in April to play City of Heroes [That, and the dev's BRILLIANT (sarcastic, if you didn't get that) idea to implement a droid handling profession, on top of saying that chefs and meds can buff, but droids having any function will unbalance the game. Stupid TH and his stupid checkers statement].
So sure, I like making droids... I am 2 / 1 / 0/ 2... I've been this way for a LONG time... I BARELY was able to build my first power droid last night, because I never had money to buy the needed resources to build it.
Meanwhile, other artisan professions are raking in the dough. Meanwhile, I'm stuck grinding out droids to sell on the bazaar for anywhere between 3 - 5 thousand credits a pop so I can just get SOME kind of cash in my pocket to pay my bills.
And Straker, I'd honestly like to know where these 32k missions are at, because I have novice rifleman also, and the only missions I can find pay about 1500 a pop. And now all of a sudden, the Imperial missions I run continue to spawn more and more Rebels and I just get overwhelmed and I can't even run missions anymore. So much for being able to support myself in the slightest.
Just because you like droids doesn't mean you should be screwed out of money. I'm not worried about being a millionaire in this game. I just want to be able to know that I can have enough money to be able to pay off all of my houses, harvestors, and vendors,so that I can support my crafting and be able to advance through the ranks. I'd also like to have some extra cash on me... so if I need to buy some new clothes, furniture, weapons, or armor, I can without having to worry about breaking the bank.
I hear some DE's talking about "Oh we can make money". Tell me how, because I have yet to find it. I'm completely screwed because I haven't been DE long enough to be a master yet... so I have no market for my product whatsoever. How is that fair?
Straker_Atrella
Sat Oct 23, 2004 10:31 pm
#26
GnomeAd wrote:
Straker_Atrella wrote:
1. You need a Droid or FC to fly all but the starter ship. You can't fly without one.
Do you really think that's fair to Shipwrights? How would you feel if we had to buy combat modules from Weaponsmiths? I know we have more interdependencies than other professions. Would you wish something worse on Shipwrights?
There are some SW parts that are already needed to fly. You do realise that Shipwrights will make a million plus per ship probably, and each person will want 5 ships. Do you really think that somebody paying 1 million for a ship will balk at paying 20k, or even 50k for a FC? I don't.
2. Droids or FC's wear out when a ship dies, or they can be targetted.
So we get decay from ship destruction but Shipwrights don't? Your ship blows up. Your engines are ok, your shields are just fine..but that R2 unit...he's a goner.
Last I checked Shipwright parts decayed. They get damaged and need to be replaced. This was broken for a while, but from what I understand it works now.
3. FC's have some meat to them. I'm not even talking experimentation. Some more resources, Advanced Droid brains, Sensors, or Microsensors, already in game things.
Why would you wish this on us? Remember the huge outcry when CCSCs had to have Droid Brains?
Why? Because then you wouldn't see them selling for 1k obviously. As long as something is simple, and quality doesn't matter, the money will always be low. CPU profit doesn't matter, it's about total money. If they were more complex, you would be able to get more money from them.
Us having a part in JtL was a gift. I honestly think they started out with just FCs and they were made by Shipwrights. Then they included Astromechs with Data modules in some ships. Rather than having two professions competing for one market, they gave us the FCs. DEs aren't the focus of JtL. We shouldn't base our profession around it. We should be much more. We got a piece of JtL. Take it and run with it. Make what you can and enjoy it.
I want more for DEs just like all of us. But it can't come at the expense of other professions or other players as a whole.