Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: DE and Combat droids
Gveedo wrote:test.
Chef.. makes food, and even if the food goes bad, and then can walk, talk, and fight you for dommance of the fridge, it still isnt a controllable object, so untill it is, dont compare it to a DE
LOL! That's too funny!
The problem that Jenden and I (and others) have with this type of thread is not that you want to change droids, it's that you want to change the Droid Engineer profession.
Droid Engineers are crafters. Period. All of our products can be used by anyone.
All of you who keep trying to get the devs to introduce DE-only combat droids are trying to change the profession into something else. THAT is what we don't like. DE-only combat droids would just make us a clone of Creature Handlers, and we don't want to be Creature Handlers.
If you want to make powerful combat droids that are so good that they require a cert system, fine. But DO NOT add the certs to the Droid Engineer profession! If necessary, add them to the Creature Handler profession as a new skill tree. Or add them to the Squad Leader profession.
There are ways to add all of the droids that people keep asking for without radically altering the Droid Engineer profession. Please stop trying to turn us into a Creature Handler clone!
Kollos wrote:
The problem that Jenden and I (and others) have with this type of thread is not that you want to change droids, it's that you want to change the Droid Engineer profession.
Droid Engineers are crafters. Period. All of our products can be used by anyone.
My sentiments exactly. DEs are artisans, a profession of crafters that play the game to make money by creating the best products possible to the widest customer base available.
If you want your combat jollies, work a combat tree in addition to/instead of DE.
Kollos wrote:The problem that Jenden and I (and others) have with this type of thread is not that you want to change droids, it's that you want to change the Droid Engineer profession.
Droid Engineers are crafters. Period. All of our products can be used by anyone.
All of you who keep trying to get the devs to introduce DE-only combat droids are trying to change the profession into something else. THAT is what we don't like. DE-only combat droids would just make us a clone of Creature Handlers, and we don't want to be Creature Handlers.
If you want to make powerful combat droids that are so good that they require a cert system, fine. But DO NOT add the certs to the Droid Engineer profession! If necessary, add them to the Creature Handler profession as a new skill tree. Or add them to the Squad Leader profession.
There are ways to add all of the droids that people keep asking for without radically altering the Droid Engineer profession. Please stop trying to turn us into a Creature Handler clone!
Who appointed you judge and jury over what is and is not Droid Engineering? And if a Creature Handling like ability is added to DE, why is it any skin off your nose? Fact is, it's not. You can just ignore that feature and go right about your business of playing DE like a pure crafter. But get off your high horse right now and stop telling the rest of us that we have to play it your way and no other way! Who are you to dictate to us how we play our Droid Engineer characters? Who promoted you to designers? Sorry, but I reject your view point and your demands that the door to playing DE any other way but yours should be locked and barred.
I don't see the problem here. Adding a DE-only combat droid to master will give us another option and further distinguish the master DE.
If you are in the "pure-crafter" camp, having one droid that can't be sold out of all of our other droids shouldn't be that big of a deal. Just think of it as another BLL 
Those that want to hunt with an uber-droid pet should be thrilled. We're talking about a pet equal to the kind that a CH can use at master. And you'd have to master DE to get it, so there isn't a lot of room for dabbling in other skills.
Some people may argue the selling combat droids to other classes, even with a certification system, will undermine the CH's ability to make money. I have to laugh at that. We're the crafting class, not them.
Don't think of it as altering the DE profession. Think of it as broadening it's scope and functionality.
I'm sure this is going to be too subtle for some, but I'm going to do it anyway:
Ardan -
Who appointed you judge and jury over what is and is not Droid Engineering? And if a Creature Handling like ability is not added to DE, why is it any skin off your nose? Fact is, it's not. You can just switch to Creature Handler. But get off your high horse right now and stop telling the rest of us that we have to play it your way and no other way! Who are you to dictate to us how we play our Droid Engineer characters? Who promoted you to designers? Sorry, but I reject your view point and your demands that the door to playing DE any other way but yours should be locked and barred.
Kollos - patronising does not help:
However
Shian - I added numbering to make it easier to respond to your points.
1.) Actually any proposal to add a DE-only combat droid dramatically alters my ability to play my profession the way it was designed. Why? Because it fundamentally alters the reason for playing the class. I firmly believe that a DE-only combat droid will destroy the droid economy because Droid Handlers (as opposed to Droid Engineers) would flood the server. If every guild has 3-4 Droid Handlers in it, then every guilded player will have easy access to free droids.
- Oh really? That gives you crystal ball powers then so I should shut up huh? Look, however many MDE members they have will give that PA access to only that number of MDE combat droids because they are MDE droids - cannot be sold or given to the entire PA
- MDE's currently give free Droids to their PA members so nothing changes here.
2.) No offense, but it sounds like you chose the wrong profession. Droid Engineers aren't meant to go out and see the entire game world, slay dragons, and save the princess. Droid Engineers are crafters - we build tools that allow others to slay dragons and save the princess. (And, actually, I've seen a fair share of the game world simply by being careful.)
- Not meant to eh? Well glad you ordained it so, but I disagree. Either way, with the new combat droids I will be able to get out a bit more, and I stated explicitly elsewhere I dont expect the MDE combat droid to be UBER CH level, just a little better than saleable droids as a distinguishing mark of our profession.
- Saving the princess and slaying dragons is just spurious fluff in an otherwise unsupportable response. You do not know what DE is supposed to be, unless you were on the design team.
3.) This is the same as point #1 and is the crux of our problem. Adding a DE-only combat droid WILL change the way I have to play my profession. Adding a high-end DE-only combat droid will ruin the market for Droid Engineers which will prevent us from playing it the way we currently play it. You're allowed to have your fun - go play a Creature Handler. But don't change the game and take away my fun in order to add a new way for you to have fun.
- See response above - NO FLOODING because the MDE droid is unsaleable to non MDE. Your logic is flawed here, but I understand how you made the mistake. Please dont ask me to play a creature handler, nothing could be worse for what I want. If you dont understand I will say it again. I want to make saleable combat droids and have a slightly better MDE only one, not UberDroid as you mistakenly think
4.) I toss this one back at you - if you're afraid that this argument is going to delay fixes to the Droid Engineer profession, then feel free to stop arguing your side of it. I'm not going to back down, though, and allow my profession to be fundamentally changed in a way that I believe will ruin it.
- Macho attempt eh? so we can play tag till doomsday with nothing being changed and you will never back down? Well thats constructive of you. Lets just war until there is no town left shall we? Very adult of you. The victor will be proud to own the sea of destruction no doubt. "Your" profession will not be changed by an MDE only droid - oops did I say your profession - what makes it yours, its mine too. For reasons already stated clearly above there will be no UberDroid flooding. There will however be more DE's out there when non MDE combat droids come in - thats to be expected - expect your cosy niche to remain? thats dreamworld.
Um... okay. Not sure what you think was patronising about that, especially considering your own response, but whatever.
1.) You're not paying attention to what I'm saying. A DE-only combat droid will draw in large numbers of non-crafter Droid Engineers (which I'm calling Droid Handlers for lack of a better name). Droid Handlers will be able to build all droids, and it is THOSE droids that will dramatically drop in price due to the sudden abundance of players capable of crafting them. Duh, of course the DE-only combat droid won't be saleable.
2.) I base my conclusion on the way the game has been presented consistently throughout design, alpha, beta, and release. Droid Engineers have always been a crafting profession with few points left over for expansion into the more "adventurous" professions. Upon what do you base your conclusion that Droid Engineers should be out slaying dragons and saving princesses? (Don't stoop to nit-picking my analogy, I'm reasonably confident that you know exactly what I mean.)
If I have confused you with one of the other posters with regards to your opinion on the power of the proposed DE-only combat droid, I apologize. I was led to believe by your posts, however, that you're expecting it to be quite good just like virtually everyone else who is in favor if having one.
By the way - if the DE-only combat droid is no better than a universally usable combat droid (i.e. it is just a different model so that Droid Handlers can have something that looks special), then I don't have a problem with it. Non-DEs will be satisfied with the equally good generic combat droid.
3.) I fear a separate DE-only combat droid even if it is only slightly better. Why does it need to be better at all? All that does is attract people to the profession that, realistically, we probably don't want (from a crafting point of view). If you want something that is strictly better that is also unique to the profession, make it a crafting droid. Allow the DE-specific crafting droid to carry every module (and *gasp* make them all functional, too)! Allow the DE-specific crafting droid to give a bonus to other crafters in the vicinity, thus making Droid Engineers desirable simply to have around. There are all kinds of ways to make DE-specific droids that do not turn us into a combat class.
4.) You provided the ultimatum, I simply turned it back on you.
On some level, I just don't think you get it. Your camp is the one that wants to fundamentally alter the profession. I do understand your desire, I just completely disagree with it. Our profession needs to be FIXED before it is radically changed into something else.
Kollos I have tried to explain it to you, and you seem not to want to understand, so lets be mature and leave it at that.
I concede none of your points, but it's plain that to attempt to reach agreement is futile.
I said what I wanted in this thread, and stand by those words. You have not convinced me of your view.
Thats debate I guess.
Nevermind - we shall see what comes out in the end. Only one thing is certain, more competition, and for that I am glad for there will be more Droids in the land
Shian_Tavkin wrote:
Nevermind - we shall see what comes out in the end. Only one thing is certain, more competition, and for that I am glad for there will be more Droids in the land
ArdenStarmariner wrote:
Who appointed you judge and jury over what is and is not Droid Engineering? And if a Creature Handling like ability is added to DE, why is it any skin off your nose? Fact is, it's not. You can just ignore that feature and go right about your business of playing DE like a pure crafter. But get off your high horse right now and stop telling the rest of us that we have to play it your way and no other way! Who are you to dictate to us how we play our Droid Engineer characters? Who promoted you to designers? Sorry, but I reject your view point and your demands that the door to playing DE any other way but yours should be locked and barred.
First of all, its you who want to turn the profession into something that it currently isn't, I wouldn't recommend throwing around accusations of people thinking they're designers. Secondly, yes, it does effect me as a crafter. Adding combat abilities to a crafting profession is a very slippery slope, and once you start down there's no coming back. Even if placing them in master does prevent dabbling, you still have quite a few people (in relative numbers) becoming DE because it now has combat function (they may have been considering it before because they like droids but don't like crafting). It is the job of the devs to listen to the majority (within reason) and once the precedence has been set that we can be a combat profession, that is what more and more people will demand. It would be a great world if we could have the devs work on both combat and crafting, but I can guarantee you would only get one, and I'm not sure how it is right to take away the profession that is already there and put a new combat profession in its place.
Jenden Morn - Master Droid Engineer - Mos Espa, Tarquinas
Owner, Operator, and Founder of DarkStar Inc.
Arden
For once and for all, if you dont want to use it then by all means sit in your workshop and craft.
Be a pure crafter if YOU want, nothing in these proposals prevents you playing just as you do now. I'm glad you are happy, really I am, but there are many others who could do with a lift y'know. Why do you want to rain on our parade so badly.
As for me, I'm tired of being the underdog in the PA, of not being able to go see the entirity of the gameworld, and I and many others see no harm in crafting and using a machine only we can make.
Dont please quote skillpoints at me, I know what I could do in addition to DE, but thats not the point. I made it, I (following good business practice) tested it's functionality and I personally wish to use it. Plenty agree with me, just as you have your supporters. We are not proposing taking anything away from you here. Your playstyle will be unchanged. So how about you let us have our fun too. Fun - its what I pay for.
I don't understand whats driving this argument, but sure as can be TH will find a use for the dissent to delay what could be a very swift change in all our fortunes. I say this with respect for TH, he has a lot on his plate, but please dont make this issue one he will use for yet more questions in ever decreasing circles.
Where is Sintrosi by the way? I surely hope she's OK
Domacett -
At a superficial level, you are correct. Adding a DE-only combat droid is not, in and of itself, that big of a change to the profession. However, look past the superficial.
Adding a DE-only combat droid that is as good as a Master-CH level pet radically alters the fundamental reason for being a Droid Engineer. It changes the end result of our profession from elite crafting class to elite combat class in one fell swoop. We would see a rapid influx of new Droid Engineers - in and of itself a good thing - whose only desire is to make Master so that they can make and use the new combat droid.
Why is that a problem, you ask? Okay, think about it for a second. These new Droid Engineers really aren't Droid Engineers. They don't care about the crafting side of the new hybrid class at all. In fact, they're probably going to hate the entire grind all the way up because it's just slowing them down from making money and hunting Holocrons (or whatever else they want to do with their l33t new combat droid).
Since they don't care about the crafting side, and more specifically because they have an alternate source of income, they'll be happy to sell a few droids here and there dirt cheap. It's a lark to them and they don't care if they make any money at it because they do not need to sustain themselves by selling. And in the process they will ruin the Droid economy on the server and put all of the crafting Droid Engineers out of business.
There is simply no need for a DE-only combat droid. If you're dead set on having something unique for Master Droid Engineers, make it something more in line with the Droid Engineer profession - how about an EquipmentFactory Droid?
Adding a DE-only combat droid fundamentally changes Droid Engineer into something else.