Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: The ideal solution to the combat droid issue please read (including Thunderheart :P )
Vampiric_Hoshi wrote:
So, good idea? Yay or nay?
/vote yay
I like this idea. As far as the artisan professions being left out, well why are artisans out fighting? If they want to go out and fight, wouldn't they get at LEAST a novice combat profession? I can't imagine someone would want to run out and fight things with absoloutely NOway to defend themselves should thier trusty droid be taken out of the picture. Thus, they go to an NPC trainer and pick up a novice brawler or novice marksman, and boom, they have access to [slightly] higher-level fighting droids.
I think that getting components from weaponsmiths is a good idea too - it creates the interdependency that TH and SOE are looking for. Look at real-life car manufacturers. They don't manufacture every part that goes in to thier vehicles. The contract out certain parts to be made for them, then assemble it all later.
Good job, Hoshi!
Vampiric,
I don't mean to pick on you, but every time someone starts coming up with some cert plan I can only think "Gee, that would be simple to implement, and balance..."
This plan sounds way too complicated to make it live. There are many simpler ways to impliment certs. And the simplest can be summed up with one word that everyone seems to hate - CH.
No other profession besides DE depends so much on craftable items from other professions - mainly Artisan, but not every DE masters artisan so it's still a valid issue.
Making DE even more dependant on even more professions to craft anything is just a bad idea. To be honest, wedon't really need increased relationships with weaponsmiths.
DE combat droids don't infringe on weaponsmiths as much as CH. Having other professions craft DE parts might make sense from a logical standpoint, but not from a gameplay standpoint. I know, sometimes things don't make sense. A 5 yr old with a blaster has the chance of blowing someones head clean off, but that wouldn't be fun in combat at all.
If done properly, combat droids or modules would be high end craftable items and droid usage would be low end. This would prevent players from building combat droids unless they were dedicatedto the profession. Dabblers could use droids, but not build them.
As far as prices go, they seem to vary widely from server to server. On some servers a probot goes for 10k-15k. Unfortunately, on my server from what I've seen even master DE sell them for around 5k. We can't really change that unless all the DE on a server get together and agree that prices are out of line. Or do some research and charge comparable prices. Many people look at the resources required to produce an item and base their price off cost and not utility. Droid Storage Units only cost a fewresources to build, but are used in high end crafting stations that can sell for 20k or 30k. What do you charge for an item like that? 200cr (cost+profit)? 1000cr? 5000cr? It's hard for people to tell.
I never claimed it to be the simplest solution. I suggested it was the "ideal" solution.
Simple rarely means best, and if we have learnt anything from this game over the past 3 years its that the Developers are not into the habbit of just picking the easiest route. They pick the one they feel would be the most fun and the most liked.
As it stands, this is no different that marksman and rifleman giving certs for different types of rifles except its multiple professions gaining the certs.
This allows ALL players of ALL types to own a combat droid, while giving the more elite players of ALL types to own an even tougher combat droid.
Who builds the parts is irrelevant, really. The idea is more about the combat AI chips.
Well the concept gets my vote...maybe I can even get some of my DE friends to come back to SWG who have left if this was implemented.
Needs some additional fine tunning but one of the best and most constructive ideas I have seen so far.
Steelgrace Master DE Radiant
neshura, you are taking it far too literal.
Labeling droids? You wouldn't use the attack abilities, you'd use the AI level. For instance "ADV Probot with lvl 4 AI chip" No one goes into detail to explain what these labels mean already anyway. Most droids are generaly labeled something like"ADV R2 w/ 110 med mod, 10item storage + chem craft" because of the limnited space ... that doesn't tell someone that only a medic can use it. It doesn't tell someone what "110" actually means. It doesn't tell them if "10 item storage" is actually the storage capacity, or that is has 10 item storage modules and it doesn't tell them what a "chem craft" actually does. We just have to assume the buyer understands, if not we just have to assume they ask.
You wouldn't need to ask someone their entire life story about theirskills, just simply ask them "What is your highest combat skill?" Since all the certs come from combat professions (squad leader is still a combat profession), knowing their highest combat skill lets you know the highest level they can use. Its no different than asking "do you have medic skills?" when someone asks for a combat droid.
Also, since it would be a "cert" it would therefore be listed in the skills they have, so they would also be able to SEE what level combat droid they can actually use.
See, isn't quite so rough-n-ready and drastic as you thought.
I for one like this idea more then any other idea that anyone has come up with.
The MSE bomb thing is the dumbest thing i have heard of EVER...
and i also feel that any weapon that is put in the droid should be made by a weaponsmith...Why you ask? b/c well...they make weapons. And your droid uses weapons...get where im going with this?
And there is nothing wrong with having to explain to customers about things...even if you repeat yourself to 1000 people. If you get tired of it...do the simple thing since thats what you seem to want anyway...QUIT.
Interesting...V, I thought from the original description that the existing cert system was going to be bypassed. If not, thats a plus mark.
It's true, having to explain a little more to the customer should not be the basis on which I say yes or no to an idea.
Least of all me, actually, since I sell wholesale and almost never deal with customers
But I will continue to disagree with the component certification system. The way that weapon certswork now is basically the equivalent of a chassis certification. One doesn't require a certification for a krayt-enhanced thingamafiringjiggy in order to get the best scout blaster. Either one canusea scout blaster, or one cannot.
Weapons certs are basically elegant and unobtrusive for me, in large part because with one glance I was able to scan the list of gun names and retain the ones I qualified for (granted...a short list). I don't have to examine the bits and pieces of the gun to find out if I qualify.
Droid cert listsfor droid components require, regardless, that we place a new burden on the customer.
Your rebukefor me not wanting to do more work was well-deserved. If the choice came down to putting more work on my shoulders or more work on the shoulders ofmy resellers and customers, I'll absolutely pick the former.
Also I may or may not be philosophically opposed to droid certs in general. I haven't decided on that yet...
I like what you've started here. It may well become what eventually happens.
This is some amount of work to accomplish, I suspect, but is an excellent place to start the basis fortalking details on combat droid modules.
I suspect the Devs are already thinking something along these very lines. I think know would be a good time for TH to step in on this thread and give it his thoughts and some validity.
Well done.
/bow
Respectfully,
I hope the devs think and consider this thread.
Kodos for a great job!
Vampiric_Hoshi wrote:
I never claimed it to be the simplest solution. I suggested it was the "ideal" solution.
Simple rarely means best, and if we have learnt anything from this game over the past 3 years its that the Developers are not into the habbit of just picking the easiest route. They pick the one they feel would be the most fun and the most liked.
As it stands, this is no different that marksman and rifleman giving certs for different types of rifles except its multiple professions gaining the certs.
This allows ALL players of ALL types to own a combat droid, while giving the more elite players of ALL types to own an even tougher combat droid.
Who builds the parts is irrelevant, really. The idea is more about the combat AI chips.
OK, let me rephrase - this plan seems way too complex to implement and use.
I don't see that this isan 'ideal' solution. Though I seriously doubt there is a truely ideal solution.
1. Each AI level lists anywhere from 2 to 7 different professions and levels of professions.
Perhaps you don't see this as a problem when trying to sell droids to people that are pretty much clueless about droids. But I doubt many DE want to spend all their time explaining to people 1000's of times how such a complex cert system works.
2. Customers will have to buy a droid with an AIlevel that is specific to thier current profession.
If they drop skills in one profession to pick up another profession, they will not be able to use their droids until they reachsome spot in another profession.
This will be a major disadvantage when trying to sell droids to players if they know they may not be able to use the droids they spent thier hard earned credits on.
Tying droid types or levels to specific professions isn't a very good idea.
3. Where are the non-combat professions???
Only combat professions will be able to use combat droids above level 1? Why limit droid usagethis way? Master DE, the only non-combat profession, is the only one listed, and at Level 6. That will not please all DE's.
You can say that only combat professions need combat droids, but that's an assumption you're making for all the rest of us.
This plan does not allow ALL players of ALL types to own a combat droid, or elite players of ALL types to own atougher combat droid.
Why not limit CH pets to specific combat professions and not let any non-combat professionsuse them.
4. This is different than a rifleman getting rifle certs.
That instance is a profession gaining skills for using the tools of their own profession, not items from another profession. But I won't argue that point too strongly as long as people get to usedroids.
5. I know you said who builds the parts is irrelevant, but the original plan mentions weaponsmiths over and over again.
Very few DE will appreciate even more dependence on other professions to build our droids. We already need master Artisan parts, architect parts, and armorsmith parts. No other profession is that dependent.
I know that it's logical to assume weapons parts would be produced by weaponsmiths, but that would put more undue strain onour profession.
All in all, there are other plans that are simpler and easier to implement, do allow players of all types to own low end and high end droids as skills dictate, and are easier for the layperson to understand.
By the way, I love the idea of AI chips as opposed togeneric Droid Levels.
It's much more techie. And that's what droids are whether crafting stations ot combat droids - techie toys.
I love it!
Certification by obfuscation? Nay.
Hiding a certification system inside the droid components themselves is a mistake. If you want droid certs, don't invent something new that I will have to explain to every customer over and over. There's an existing certification system in place for weapons, people understand it already, and for a cert system, it's relatively elegant.
Problem #1 with the system is custom orders: The droid module system and the vagaries and complexities in stacking versus non-stacking are complicated enough. Those of you who still have customers probably have enjoyed the situation where you spend an hour explaining "droids" to a person who is slightly slow on the uptake. Not their fault, and not something to punish them for, but it happens. Custom orders would be a nightmare, since virtually every order begins with a /tell of "can u mak me the best fighting droid". As it stands now, I just say "Yes". After this plan is implemented, I have to screen everyone with "Send me a list of your current skillbox set, as well as any plans you may have to drop or take up new professions."
Problem #2 with the system is vendor sales. Consider the following situation: A DE makes 100 droids using all sorts of possible combinations of armor and combat and weapon modules and AI chips. Say that they are one of the good DEswho doesn't just throw it up as "Deed for Droideka Advanced" but insteadlabels them as "Deed for Droideka, ADV, ranged rifle 2.3 atk 150-220 dmg, med 22% armor usable by MTK an", and well, nows/he's out of space. They carefully label and list these items on the vendor.
You know what happens next. People will purchase the best droid possible and not touch the medium to low powered droids. People do that. Nobody wants anything less than the best. I am not looking forward to the frustrated customers who didn't realize that they couldn't use the droid that they bought. For weapons it is obvious. You look in your cert list. Do you have a cert? Then buy the weapon. For droids, it's not obvious, and will lead to a lot of headaches.
If you were to revise and repost, I would happily re-evaluate. But as described above, definitely nay.