Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: The Answer
Kollos wrote:
Yes, you are slanting the game. Game balance has many more aspects to it than just combat. Giving Droid Engineers more combat capabilities tilts game balance in their favor, even if you're not giving them terribly powerful combat capabilities. Why? Because Droid Engineers basically have zero combat capabilities of their own to start with. You're giving them additional abilities, so something's gotta give in order to keep the game balanced overall.
Balance is thecancellation of a force with an equal and opposite force. You cannot balance crafting with combat. Nobody is going to argue that a master combat profession wouldn't kill a DE with a level 25 droid and no combat skills to speak of.
But even if you use a different definition of balance, we aren't balanced with other crafting professions. The weaponsmith, chef, tailor, and Architect make useful items for a large cross-section of the playerbase. Our products do not have the breadth or depth of any of the other crafting professions.
And by your argument, I suppose Creature Handler would have to be disqualified from combat as well. The prerequisite for Novice Creature Handler is 17500 points of Scouting Experience.
They're forcing an economy into existance because my Droid Engineer CANNOT, all by himself, also be l33t at PvP or for that matter even PvE.
He couldn't be even if he had a combat droid trailing him around. Not unless you had some pretty decent combat skills to go along with it. Your signature says you don't have any combat skills. Take your probot to, say, a regular Durni lair and try and take it out. I can just about takeout a Crazed Durni lair and all the defenders in two moves as a Master Swordsman.
Yes, they could add "minor" combat capabilities to Droid Engineer without unbalancing the game. But to do so, they would have to gimp or remove other capabilities of Droid Engineers in the process. And that's a tradeoff that many of us are not willing to make just to get combat abilities that we can easily obtain by picking up some other combat profession.
Where is the logic that brings you to that conclusion? We might as well say that Doctors can't buffthemselves, or Smugglers can't take thier own spice, or chefs can't eat thier own food, or Tailors can't wear thier own clothing! I know what you want to say, and that comparison to Weaponsmith doesn't even apply. Weaponsmith and BE are the exception, not the norm.
I think the greatest folly of arguing balance between combat and crafting is assuming that the player economy revolves around crafters. For the same time spent in-game, I can easily make more money swinging my sword than crafting and selling droids. And I can also get faction points, go down into dungeons, get more badges, and loot strange and cool items from the fallen. *shrug* You tell me what is balanced about that.
SinjenRandall wrote:
Balance is thecancellation of a force with an equal and opposite force. You cannot balance crafting with combat. Nobody is going to argue that a master combat profession wouldn't kill a DE with a level 25 droid and no combat skills to speak of.
Do you think then that BH's should be given crafting skills? Or how about commandos? They don't have any crafting skills to speak of, so give them the ability to make some low level droids, say seekers and arakyd's. This wouldn't unbalance them, since you say that crafting and combat can't be balanced against eachother.
But even if you use a different definition of balance, we aren't balanced with other crafting professions. The weaponsmith, chef, tailor, and Architect make useful items for a large cross-section of the playerbase. Our products do not have the breadth or depth of any of the other crafting professions.
You state this as a problem, yet adding combat droids that only we can use don't fix that. This is where personal opinion comes in. Some people would rather have the devs add some combat capabilities to fill the gap (making us weak in combat and weak in crafting) whereas the rest of us would rather have more crafting style enhancements (such as more utility droids or droid capabilities) to even out this balance. One isn't any more right than the other, but the majority has asked for more crafting.
Where is the logic that brings you to that conclusion? We might as well say that Doctors can't buffthemselves, or Smugglers can't take thier own spice, or chefs can't eat thier own food, or Tailors can't wear thier own clothing! I know what you want to say, and that comparison to Weaponsmith doesn't even apply. Weaponsmith and BE are the exception, not the norm.
BE's and weaponsmiths can't be the exception, because they abide by the same rules the rest of them do. The rule of thumb is that the crafter of the item can use it just as well as all other characters can use it (not a specific group). chefs and doctors can use their own services because every other character can as well, weaponsmith and BE cannot use theirs because not all characters can.
I think the greatest folly of arguing balance between combat and crafting is assuming that the player economy revolves around crafters. For the same time spent in-game, I can easily make more money swinging my sword than crafting and selling droids. And I can also get faction points, go down into dungeons, get more badges, and loot strange and cool items from the fallen. *shrug* You tell me what is balanced about that.
Yes, combat characters are the ones who go out and get the money, but the majority of combat characters I know (and I know quite a few) end up spending almost all their money as soon as they get it, and guess who gets their money? Crafters, who in general have more cash stashed away than any other characters.
Gyros wrote:
Then the DEVs make a plan and poof... WE START COMPLAINING ABOUT THEIRPLAN till DE is once again brought to a halt!!!!
The devs have NEVER told us a plan. They have mentioned a word or so that may suggest a possible direction. Every plan put forth has been by players, and every plan has had no substantive discussion from the devs.
Saying there will be a Droid Handler is NOT a PLAN.
Jenden wrote:
Do you think then that BH's should be given crafting skills? Or how about commandos? They don't have any crafting skills to speak of, so give them the ability to make some low level droids, say seekers and arakyd's. This wouldn't unbalance them, since you say that crafting and combat can't be balanced against eachother.
Boeda wrote:
Droids are the realm of DEs. DEs should still make seekers etc. But you could let BHs craft carbonite bounty wall decorations, or whatever. It certainly wouldnt unbalance anything in a bad way. I dont think most BHs care to craft. Hence the effort would be waisted. Where there is desire, need,or coolness. Combats could be given craft skills 'aproppraite' for thier class. But I dont think there is much desire/reason for this.
On the other hand. There IS desire And need (amoung Many crafters) for some balancing combat advantage from thier skillpoints.
Giving DE's combat droids would not be equivalent to giving BH's a decoration. It would be more analogous to let the BH's craft a few guns or possibly some special bounty hunter armor. This would make a difference, as these items have a direct impact on game balance. Combat droids also have a direct impact on game balance.
Just because someone wants something doesn't mean they should get it. There are players that want to be able to master every profession in the game, but what's the point in that? The choices that we are forced to make are what makes the game entertaining and diverse, take away those choices by letting people do more things for the same number of skill points and you take away that diversity.
Jenden wrote:
Do you think then that BH's should be given crafting skills? Or how about commandos? They don't have any crafting skills to speak of, so give them the ability to make some low level droids, say seekers and arakyd's. This wouldn't unbalance them, since you say that crafting and combat can't be balanced against eachother.
And I still stand by that. The jist of your point here is that giving them crafting abilities would nerf us. But that isn't necessarily true. If you take away the droids we make and give them to the Bounty Hunter to craft, that is seen as a nerf. But if Bounty Hunters or Commandos could craft some sort of tool for themselves, I would be all for it. As long as they get sub-components from other professions, that is still fun.
The reason you cannot balance combat and crafting is that you would have to give crafting folk combat abilities and combat folk crafting abilities, and have them all compete in the same market. If DE's had a combat droid, that doesn't automatically enter them into the competitive combat world. Just asif a combat character made a product for themselves, itdoes not automatically enter them into the competitive crafting market. Equal and opposite.
You state this as a problem, yet adding combat droids that only we can use don't fix that. This is where personal opinion comes in. Some people would rather have the devs add some combat capabilities to fill the gap (making us weak in combat and weak in crafting) whereas the rest of us would rather have more crafting style enhancements (such as more utility droids or droid capabilities) to even out this balance. One isn't any more right than the other, but the majority has asked for more crafting.
And people who want to craft droids to use themselves are also in the "more crafting" camp. Nobody will argue against more crafting. What is strange is the assessment that we will automagically lose crafting abilities if we gain more droids and droid parts to build and use ourselves. The developers have never once said that was the case.
And I really didn't state this as a problem. I stated it as a fact. Giving us droids to use ourselves doesn't solve any problem, but it certainly doesn't create problems either.
I would rather have more utility and useful droids than have anyone get to use a combat droid. But if they can't make it to where everyone can use droids, I don't wanta new profession to use droids. If it were a choice between DE and DH, I would vote DE.
BE's and weaponsmiths can't be the exception, because they abide by the same rules the rest of them do. The rule of thumb is that the crafter of the item can use it just as well as all other characters can use it (not a specific group). chefs and doctors can use their own services because every other character can as well, weaponsmith and BE cannot use theirs because not all characters can.
BE's and weaponsmiths are the exception because they are the only ones that have product that not everyone can use. (besides the stipulation that Wookiees can't wear armor)
The entire debatecenters on whether or not we should go all the way and have droids that only a few can use, or make it so that everyone can use droids. We already have a little of both. Some people would like to expand what we provide on both sides, having a lot of droids that everyone can use, and a lot of droids that are profession specific. What I want is to have more droids that everyone can use.
Everyone who wants DE's to use thier own droids grudgingly accept the rationale that not everyone can use droids, but don't think the developers should spend time creating a new profession as a reason for us to exist.
Yes, combat characters are the ones who go out and get the money, but the majority of combat characters I know (and I know quite a few) end up spending almost all their money as soon as they get it, and guess who gets their money? Crafters, who in general have more cash stashed away than any other characters.
I don't know if I would say crafters have more money in general. I think the few major players on every server throw the curve. You also have to take into account the type of player you are dealing with. I would say a lot of crafters would rather stash away credits than spend credits, whereas combat characters don't mind spending it all at once, knowing that they will just go right back out and make more. Without some hard numbers, we can't know for sure, so this is all speculation on both sides.
Jenden wrote:
Giving DE's combat droids would not be equivalent to giving BH's a decoration. It would be more analogous to let the BH's craft a few guns or possibly some special bounty hunter armor. This would make a difference, as these items have a direct impact on game balance. Combat droids also have a direct impact on game balance.
If would, be equivelent. If the guns and armor were not 'BH only'. You *can* see my point here can't you ?
Power + 'Powerless' Skills =~= Powerless Skills + Power
(where 'Power' here referes to combat power, and 'powerless' refers to anything confering no more 'power' to the owner of those skills, than to most others.
FWIW, the 'powerless' DE skills would in this case confer a bit more power to Master DEs than to others in general. Because only DEs would have the master box cert. I propose that master DEs, be near to, (lets say, 85%, (90?) (whatever)) (to distinguish 'crafting skillpoints') as powerfull as 'combat skillpoints. { And/or/but I have allways (myself) thought of DEs as a bit of a combat, too' class, like CH }
You, have Five ? stars ?? (?) and I, have ONE ????? Now, THATS Imbalance ! Thats Horible, twisted, Sick imbalance. ((g))
Jenden wrote:
Just because someone wants something doesn't mean they should get it. ...
A little bit of water can save your life. A bit more, a nice swimming pool. Too much, and you need a boat. ... If I had more time, I would try to write a little poliitition like speach here. But it would just disrtact us from the issue.
SinjenRandall wrote:
The reason you cannot balance combat and crafting is that you would have to give crafting folk combat abilities and combat folk crafting abilities, and have them all compete in the same market. If DE's had a combat droid, that doesn't automatically enter them into the competitive combat world. Just asif a combat character made a product for themselves, itdoes not automatically enter them into the competitive crafting market. Equal and opposite.
Can, So ! Why though ?
Many people want to be dancers, or chefs, or DEs, Etc.(its a 'roleplay' thing) But. They also want to Explore, to do Quests, to Adventure, to hunt Holos, Whatever. Crafters should have a 'Chance,' to do these things too.
Yet I see a 'pure combat class' should have some advantage too. thats why i say, oh, 85%.
Yes I am in favore of giving ALL 'non combat' skills, 'perks'. It would not imbalance anyone. It would just create a rich variety of combat means. While impowering crafters to Adventure.
Not All crafters care about this. But I, and Many Do !
If Combat classes have a similar yearning/need to craft. ( i dont think so) We could 'balance them too. They do have a need to aquire credits. and they do have that ability.
SinjenRandall wrote:
The entire debatecenters on whether or not we should go all the way and have droids that only a few can use, or make it so that everyone can use droids. We already have a little of both. Some people would like to expand what we provide on both sides, having a lot of droids that everyone can use, and a lot of droids that are profession specific. What I want is to have more droids that everyone can use.
Everyone who wants DE's to use thier own droids grudgingly accept the rationale that not everyone can use droids, but don't think the developers should spend time creating a new profession as a reason for us to exist.
This plan solves those issues !
It provides 3 different levels of varying certs that non DEs can have. These are easyer for crafters (the 'mechanically inclined'). That 'makes sense'.
And it gives DEs a hefty 'inherant' cert.
What more could you want ?
Varying certs for all, with intuitive, ease for crafters. (who need 'somthing') ((as do entertainers,, Nuther Issue))
And a little , 'CH like' 12 max level/ one more droid out, perk for master DEs.
Boeda wrote:
I don't see an actual plan there, I just see some random comments. It all comes back to the difference of opinion as to the direction of where the DE profession is going. Some want it to branch out into combat (at the cost of crafting capabilities), others want it to further exand its crafting potential.
If would, be equivelent. If the guns and armor were not 'BH only'. You *can* see my point here can't you ?
Power + 'Powerless' Skills =~= Powerless Skills + Power
(where 'Power' here referes to combat power, and 'powerless' refers to anything confering no more 'power' to the owner of those skills, than to most others.
FWIW, the 'powerless' DE skills would in this case confer a bit more power to Master DEs than to others in general. Because only DEs would have the master box cert. I propose that master DEs, be near to, (lets say, 85%, (90?) (whatever)) (to distinguish 'crafting skillpoints') as powerfull as 'combat skillpoints. { And/or/but I have allways (myself) thought of DEs as a bit of a combat, too' class, like CH }
You, have Five ? stars ?? (?) and I, have ONE ????? Now, THATS Imbalance ! Thats Horible, twisted, Sick imbalance. ((g))
I guess we'll have to mark this one down as a philisophical disagreement. I see crafting as every bit as "powerful" as combat, just in a different sense. In my opinion a full crafting profession would have no combat skills, and I'd still consider it every bit as powerful as a rifleman or TKA or whatever combat profession.
Can, So ! Why though ?
Many people want to be dancers, or chefs, or DEs, Etc.(its a 'roleplay' thing) But. They also want to Explore, to do Quests, to Adventure, to hunt Holos, Whatever. Crafters should have a 'Chance,' to do these things too.
Thats where the profession system comes in to play. If you want to be able to explore/do quests/adventure etc, just pick up a combat profession as well. There's nothing stopping you, there's more than enough skill points.
Yet I see a 'pure combat class' should have some advantage too. thats why i say, oh, 85%.
I think if the system worked like this we'd wind up with about 80% of characters on each server as a master crafting profession too...
Yes I am in favore of giving ALL 'non combat' skills, 'perks'. It would not imbalance anyone. It would just create a rich variety of combat means. While impowering crafters to Adventure.
Not All crafters care about this. But I, and Many Do !
I don't think as many crafters want this as combat professions (who want to be able to craft their own stuff and not lose too much of their combat skills).
If Combat classes have a similar yearning/need to craft. ( i dont think so) We could 'balance them too. They do have a need to aquire credits. and they do have that ability.
Again, I'd just mark this down as a fundamental philisophical difference of opinion
This plan solves those issues !
It provides 3 different levels of varying certs that non DEs can have. These are easyer for crafters (the 'mechanically inclined'). That 'makes sense'.
And it gives DEs a hefty 'inherant' cert.
What more could you want ?
Varying certs for all, with intuitive, ease for crafters. (who need 'somthing') ((as do entertainers,, Nuther Issue))
And a little , 'CH like' 12 max level/ one more droid out, perk for master DEs.
Jenden wrote:
Thats where the profession system comes in to play. If you want to be able to explore/do quests/adventure etc, just pick up a combat profession as well. There's nothing stopping you, there's more than enough skill points.
(me)> I guess were having a bit of "philosophical difference", here.
I don't think as many crafters want this as combat professions (who want to be able to craft their own stuff and not lose too much of their combat skills).
(me)> Well it's a continuum, from either extream.
Call me a combat wannabe DE. Call 'us' combats who want to craft. Call 'us' crafters who want to combat.
No, Matter. There are MANY, of 'US'.
We want to role play a musician, or a DE, And Adventure too.
We want to be a Marksman, who can make our own weapons (and have some combat perk from the WS skillpoints them selves, to give us a competitive chance against the master riflemen we cant be, because we've spent our skillpoints on WS)
We want a chance to have our crafting, and to Adventure Too !
(quote) This plan solves those issues !
It provides 3 different levels of varying certs that non DEs can have. These are easyer for crafters (the 'mechanically inclined'). That 'makes sense'.
And it gives DEs a hefty 'inherant' cert.
What more could you want ?
Varying certs for all, with intuitive, ease for crafters. (who need 'somthing') ((as do entertainers,, Nuther Issue))
And a little , 'CH like' 12 max level/ one more droid out, perk for master DEs. (/quote (of me))
I don't see an actual plan there, I just see some random comments.
Good Grief !
Did you see the first post in this thread ? The Plan ?
With each and every skillbox spelled out? With every plus max droid level, every additional droid 'out', every increase in data pad number stored?
With every skillpoint cost enumerated ?
You "dont see an actual plan here" ???
If you have read the first message in this thread and see only "some random comments". Tthen I can see why you might have trouble understanding my ideas. And I dont think there's much I can do to explain.
If you havnt read the first message in this thread do. (its, a "plan") It tells what skills to put in what boxes to solve our DE and droid problems. In an effective easy way (no programing a new profession.Just some shifting and editing of skillboxes)
Fuurther more it addresses every other 'issue' I have ever heard or thought of.
It costs more skillpoints than CH so DEs can be powerfull.
It allows a relatively easy route for non DEs to aquire a limited Cert. (DEs can sell droids) (others can use new more powerfull droids)
Its not a 'free checker'. It costs non DEs plenty of skillpoints. and it costs master DEs the additional points of master artisan (which they 'tend' to have anyway) to justify power appraching that of CHs.
{ get that "approaching the power" the higher cost DE cert could mean less 'power' than CHs, which is 'less of a crafting class' than DE. }
But CHs have much in common with 'crafting classes' too. I would not complain if we were as powerfull as CHs either. I, even wouldnt complain if we were more powerfull for our greater skill cost. But someone else would for sure.
Call me a 'Droid Handler' that wants to craft his own droids. Im not proud. Just Let Me !
edit - And for the record, I'm not the one who one-starred you, only time I one-star posts is if they don't belong on the board.
Boeda wrote:
Jenden wrote:
We want to be a Marksman, who can make our own weapons (and have some combat perk from the WS skillpoints them selves, to give us a competitive chance against the master riflemen we cant be, because we've spent our skillpoints on WS)
We want a chance to have our crafting, and to Adventure Too !
Why don't you have enough skill points to do both? Last I checked you could master Weaponsmith and Rifleman at the same time just fine.
(quote) This plan solves those issues !
It provides 3 different levels of varying certs that non DEs can have. These are easyer for crafters (the 'mechanically inclined'). That 'makes sense'.
And it gives DEs a hefty 'inherant' cert.
What more could you want ?
Varying certs for all, with intuitive, ease for crafters. (who need 'somthing') ((as do entertainers,, Nuther Issue))
And a little , 'CH like' 12 max level/ one more droid out, perk for master DEs. (/quote (of me))
I don't see an actual plan there, I just see some random comments.
Good Grief !
Did you see the first post in this thread ? The Plan ?
With each and every skillbox spelled out? With every plus max droid level, every additional droid 'out', every increase in data pad number stored?
With every skillpoint cost enumerated ?
You "dont see an actual plan here" ???
If you have read the first message in this thread and see only "some random comments". Tthen I can see why you might have trouble understanding my ideas. And I dont think there's much I can do to explain.
If you havnt read the first message in this thread do. (its, a "plan") It tells what skills to put in what boxes to solve our DE and droid problems. In an effective easy way (no programing a new profession.Just some shifting and editing of skillboxes)
Fuurther more it addresses every other 'issue' I have ever heard or thought of.
It costs more skillpoints than CH so DEs can be powerfull.
It allows a relatively easy route for non DEs to aquire a limited Cert. (DEs can sell droids) (others can use new more powerfull droids)
Its not a 'free checker'. It costs non DEs plenty of skillpoints. and it costs master DEs the additional points of master artisan (which they 'tend' to have anyway) to justify power appraching that of CHs.
{ get that "approaching the power" the higher cost DE cert could mean less 'power' than CHs, which is 'less of a crafting class' than DE. }
But CHs have much in common with 'crafting classes' too. I would not complain if we were as powerfull as CHs either. I, even wouldnt complain if we were more powerfull for our greater skill cost. But someone else would for sure.
Call me a 'Droid Handler' that wants to craft his own droids. Im not proud. Just Let Me !
I thought you were referring to the post you quoted as the plan, yes, your original post is a plan. I still don't like the plan as I think the game has more than enough combat professions and DE has so much potential as a utility profession.
Message Edited by Jenden on 02-03-2004 12:00 PM
Jenden wrote:
Why don't you have enough skill points to do both? Last I checked you could master Weaponsmith and Rifleman at the same time just fine.
Boeda wrote:
Jenden wrote:
Why don't you have enough skill points to do both? Last I checked you could master Weaponsmith and Rifleman at the same time just fine.
I Never have enough skillpoints. I never tried Rifleman and WS. But I'm sure if you can do that (I believe you) that you cant have other things I would want with that template. Novice Medic, Scout skills. Whatever. I Never ghave enough skillpoints and Most people I talk to dont Either. I know people who have quit because of this.
One person wanted to be a master dancer. So they became one. Thier 'Role' was master dancer. But they wanted 'adventure' too. They figured Master Terra Kazzi (or whatever that UA mastery is) Would go great with Dancing. And allow them to Adventure. I dont know what otther skills they had. What else they had to have, and/or couldnt give up. But they couldnt make 'TKA' (or whatever that is) and , They Quit ! I would let them have TKA and the pet snake they wanted too.
Id have my awsome combat droids, my subcomponent crafting skills, and a big Bunny (g) and the world would be a better place.
I dont like to be dependant on someone else for my sub components. I dont like to pay 3 credits a resource or more for power cores , or even yet more for artisan parts. I like mask scent and to ID critters i examine. I like novice medic for a chance in, hello, to not die. I had some marksman and brawling skills. I tasted novice smuggler. Im now tasting BE and CH ( I got a BE holo) )i had to surrender all marksman and brawler skills. But I cant get anywhere. Ive nothing lefy to surrender.Perhaps I am less easily satisfied than most. But *I* dont have enough skil points Already. Let alone using up more for 'DH'. Most people want more skillpoints too. (like more sugar, etc.) But I prattle on,,,
I think it would help if we had a bit morre skillpoints. I know if we had Too, many. We would all be everything, and it would not be good. But Some, more,, better. But That is not the issue Now. My issue now, concerning skill points is,, I , do Not want Less! skillpoints. Do to what presious few I have being tied up in DH.
I must say, i might rather spend points on a DH proffession than try to get my 'power to adventure' In other combat skills. IF the powers of 'developement' in this game dont see the clear light of my reason. But I would prefer the plan I have described here. And cant see a thing wrong with it.
As to THs proggress post I think my plan would be less of a 'DE <-> CH clone, than a new droid handler proffession would be. (BE,CH <-> DE,DH) And it would put more limited droid cert 'in the hands of the people'.
Thanks, I like the plan.
I didn't read the whole non DE rant, but, on combat/non combat balance :
Changing a crafting profession that carft tools useless for everyone to a profession that craft tools usefull for them is good.
Architect can craft their own harvesters and houses.
WeaponSmith can craft their own weapons
ArmorSmith can craft their own armor.
Tailor can craft their own clothes
Smugglers can slice their weapons/armor and make their spices.
Chef can make their foods.
Medic can heal themselves
Doctor can buff themselves.
And so on,...
Only difference for Droid engineer is that non-DE cannot use big droids. Is that bad? No.
On the same note, Musician can craft their own instrument, but they cannot buff themselves, just heal after battle themselves.
DE should be balanced after those changes.
To the person that said that the problem was that dev were giving combat capacities to a prof that don't have :
They are giving a use to a profession that have none. If you have a problem with that, drop your combat skills and make a DE.