Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Hybrid DE Discussion: Melee Balance
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:Its to our advantage to make it easy to "dabble" in this profession. I would prefer to have it in a manner where melees and ranged types could do so equally. But we need to hear from the devs on this. They may like Ranged Support as an important limitation. Or they may want all players to be able to more easily have access to these droids.One thing to note is that the votes have been overwhelmingly in support of Variant #1.(Gosh, can't believe how far we've come with this discussion since Woody's "forum rules" post. Very cool.)
I'd prefer to have Ranged/Melee equally able to 'dabble' as well, but the Support line is still the most logical place to do it since it is not (by itself) a gateway to any elite profession and contains no weapon certs.
In the end though, it's really up to the devs to decide on where to grant the +1 Combat Droid modifiers if they decide to go this route. For melee, the only place I can think of putting it is the Master Brawler box. The skillpoint expenditure is higher, but it's also a very useful box to attain all by itself.
this is a great idea
/sign
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
The purpose of this thread is to discuss the balance issues relating to Melee players for the Hybrid DE plan.
Some individual have raised the concern that the Hybrid DE plan favors ranged weapon types as opposed to melee-based players. Your constructive ideas and suggestions are welcome and encouraged in this thread.
Extra combat skillpoints for a rifleman who gets Ranged Support IV: 14
Extra combat skillpoints for a swordsman who gets Ranged Support IV: 29
Now, I can fully understand where you guys who want the Ranged Support are coming from, really I do. However, someone who chooses pistol, rifle, or carbine has a pretty serious advantage over those who choose the sword, pike, or unarmed. Whether or not you can justify this through arguing the ranged support line's supposed tactical benefits is somewhat irrelevant. It is nested in the marksman's skilltree.
If I were one of the developers, I would be asking these same questions. And I don't know if I could give much weight to any argument or proposal that alienates a sizeable portion of my playerbase under the chant of "too bad so sad". So for those of you who just think that brawler shouldn't have picked brawler, please consider your audience.
Our only current established precedent for controlling pets as a profession perk, the Creature Handler, requires absolutely no combat skills on the part of the handler. It helps, sure, and makes it easier, but it is entirely possible to master Creature Handler without ever firing a shot or using a weapon of any kind. This is one of the reasons I like the proposal to make DE a hybrid profession. Because it isn't a combat profession now, and it wouldn't be a combat profession after. Only by pairing the skills of controlling droids with a combat profession of your choosing would it become a combat effective class. Like with Creature Handler.
What makes the proposal unattractive to me, however, is the variant that forces me into taking a ranged profession just because I want to control droids. Because it doesn't make sense to me. Telling a droid to go kill something has absolutely nothing to do with how I would go kill something myself. I don't care how the enemy dies, as long as they do. If I have to do it myself, I prefer chopping something's head off, while you might prefer not to get all messy. The droid's programming might go another way altogether. To me, the droid's combat effectiveness has to do with the quality of the droid, not the combat skills of the owner.
So maybe it is best not to argue for a combat prerequisite at all. Maybe it is better to argue for Trapping IV (Martial Design: described as: envy of military forces throughout the galaxy; could very well be weapons designers). I am fully on board for the Master Artisan variant. I am up for a lot of things. But I don't agree with Ranged Support IV. And I wouldn't agree with Swordsman IV, either, if that was the only prerequisite.
Javac wrote:
I think the idea of using "Skillpoints Remaining" was brought up before, but worth kicking around again. If it is used the skillpoint expenditure should probably be lower than in the current proposal because you are granted no other bonuses. The other potential problem is that this would be an entirely new game mechanic. I'm not sure how the devs would feel about that, one of the benefits as it currently stands is that it follows pre-existing game mechanics.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was brought up before, Lord knows we have been almost everywhere possible at some time or another.
Skillpoint cost? leave it to the Devs..its a balance issue and thats their business I say.
Entirely new game mechanic? Well yes but hardly 'mega development', its just another check after the CL level check that currently exists: If player skillpoint total < dev decided figure THEN call droid ELSE errormessage
Doesn't seem too hard to me.
I now really dont care how it's done, I just know it needs to be done, and soon. Customers are screaming and thats a Bad Thing (tm)
Message Edited by Shian_Tavkin on 03-18-2004 05:37 AM
SinjenRandall wrote:
<snip>
So maybe it is best not to argue for a combat prerequisite at all. Maybe it is better to argue for Trapping IV (Martial Design: described as: envy of military forces throughout the galaxy; could very well be weapons designers). I am fully on board for the Master Artisan variant. I am up for a lot of things. But I don't agree with Ranged Support IV. And I wouldn't agree with Swordsman IV, either, if that was the only prerequisite.
Shian_Tavkin wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if it was brought up before, Lord knows we have been almost everywhere possible at some time or another.
Skillpoint cost? leave it to the Devs..its a balance issue and thats their business I say.
Entirely new game mechanic? Well yes but hardly 'mega development', its just another check after the CL level check that currently exists: If player skillpoint total dev decided figure THEN call droid ELSE errormessage
Doesn't seem too hard to me.
I now really dont care how it's done, I just know it needs to be done, and soon. Customers are screaming and thats a Bad Thing (tm)
Message Edited by Shian_Tavkin on 03-18-2004 05:37 AM
I agree it doesn't appear to be that difficult to implement, but that's not my point. It would be gaining abilities in a completely different way than anything else in the game. It's also very non-intuitive from the users' point of view in my opinion.
It's really too bad that brawler doesn't have a support type line, that would make this discussion a moot point.
Really Sodan, I don't think there is any way to balance melee with your proposal (DE0040 + ranged support), while keeping it fair...
Ponder this:
Unlike marksman (which has 3 weapon trees and a support tree), brawler has 4 separate weapon trees. If you add a "+1 combat droids" to one of the weapon trees (ex: pike tree) you are favoring that class at the expense of all 3 others (ex: TKA, fence, sword). So by adding that +1 to one of the brawler trees, you are only really helping one weapon type.
Alternatively, you could add the +1 to all 4 brawler trees. However this gets into the realm of "giving people extra checkers for something they already did without any extra effort" and makes it so that all brawlers can easily meet the requirement.
Another thought: One of the best things about your proposal is that it takes unrelated skills and uses them as prerequisites. Look at all the other hybrid professions...commando takes the unarmed tree, which it does not use at all; BH has to use almost all their skill points; CM has to spend a truckload of skill points for 2 full healing professions AND take up marksmanfor ranged support. It is normal and part of the game that you have to pick up professions you don't want, need, or use to get access to a hybrid profession.
There are a bunch of people in game who are not marksman and don't have the ranged support tree. However, I would wager there are VERY few players who don't have marksman OR brawler. If you put that +1 in both, I think is dilutes the effect of having to meet the requirement. People will easily be able to be DEs/marksman (for combat droids)AND brawlers if they really want to, but probably won't be able to be other hybrid professions or master elite of more than one elite marksman/brawler profession in addition to that. To me, that is balance...these droids are going to be great, and people should have to sacrifice a little to have them. You can't have combat droids AND an elite marksman profession AND an elite brawler profession, but you can do a mixture of the 3. That's balance...
So, my take on it is that your proposal is perfect without making exceptions for brawlers. If someone wants combat droids, they need to sacrifice for them just like every other hybrid profession. I, as a commando/de, have a truckload of things that I cannot do. Master pike is one of them, even though it is easy for me to take up skills in other ranged professions. That is a sacrifice I have to make for my character template.
My humble opinion...brawlers can sacrifice or not...it's their choice....
Thanks everyone for your thoughts. I'm not sure this issue us a deal breaker but I am fairly sure, based on the discussion here and the votes in the voting thread, that way to go forward is to flag it for the devs and move on. I will summarize the issue as to be restated to the devs:
In summary, the majority of those in favor of the plan prefer a variant with Ranged Support as a requesite. That is an expression of preference by the community.
The plan includes a variant to allow the pre-req to be in any brawler or marksman lvl 4 box (with a hard cap on +1 Combat Droids). While this would put ranged and melee types on equal footing for combat droids, it resembles the "free checkers" droid certs proposal in a way that is discomforting to some (including me). A caveat to this is that grinding to 0040 DE is still required so people meeting this broader pre-req would still need to make up to DE 0040.
Finally, a broader pre-req would lead to a greater market for DEs and be fairer to brawler types.
acutally i was serious about Hunting 4. Then neither melee or marksman would have an advantage. The scouts would 
Which may not be a bad thing since they are feeling a little nerfed with the camp removal and having no real skills to contribute to others.
Do the skillpoint math for us, man.
Lonkley wrote:
acutally i was serious about Hunting 4. Then neither melee or marksman would have an advantage. The scouts would
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Alternatively, you could add the +1 to all 4 brawler trees. However this gets into the realm of "giving people extra checkers for something they already did without any extra effort" and makes it so that all brawlers can easily meet the requirement.
I'm starting think this might be possible...
Add a +4 to the top box in each tree................................however..............
A check is put in place such that a Master Brawler (or some variant that had other top box Brawler trees) would only receive the +4 once. Once you get it one top level Brawler box...that's that. The other 3 won't get you anything.
Basically, this is a 'cap' that would apply evenly to the Brawler but would provide the same benefit.
This would solve the melee vs. ranged issue.....sort of....
The only other sticking point would be that Brawler XP to get to a top box will be indescribably easier than gaining Combat XP for Ranged Support.
I'm keeping an eye on this (when I can)...great thread, Sodan. You da' man!
/bow
Respectfully,
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Daker-Naritus wrote:
Alternatively, you could add the +1 to all 4 brawler trees. However this gets into the realm of "giving people extra checkers for something they already did without any extra effort" and makes it so that all brawlers can easily meet the requirement.
I'm starting think this might be possible...
Add a +4 to the top box in each tree................................however..............
A check is put in place such that a Master Brawler (or some variant that had other top box Brawler trees) would only receive the +4 once. Once you get it one top level Brawler box...that's that. The other 3 won't get you anything.
Basically, this is a 'cap' that would apply evenly to the Brawler but would provide the same benefit.
This would solve the melee vs. ranged issue.....sort of....
The only other sticking point would be that Brawler XP to get to a top box will be indescribably easier than gaining Combat XP for Ranged Support.
I'm keeping an eye on this (when I can)...great thread, Sodan. You da' man!
/bow
Respectfully,
Point of clarification, why should brawlers get +4 when Ranged folks would be capped at +1?