Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Hybrid DE Discussion: Melee Balance
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
Goals: The goal of this proposal is to introduce player made and controlled combat droids into SWG in a balanced manner. The ultimate goal is 1) to allow pure crafter DEs to craft their way to MDE without ever having to fire a gun; 2) to allow combat-minded DEs to use combat droids with the expenditure of skill points; 3) to allow players to dabble in one tree of the DE profession to get combat droid certs for their use; 4) to present crafting DEs a high end market for combat droids via the combat droid dabblers; 5) to allow the devs to introduce the combat droids and combat droid module system that they have largely already developed.
Variant #1
In Variant #1 of this proposal, combat droid lvls are found in the 0040 branch of DE. Max droid lvls are 25 to 35 (see below for details and droid lvls) and +4 Stored Combat Droids. Obtaining 0040 in DE gives you the max droid lvls you can obtain for controlling combat droids. All players start with +0 Combat Droids, which prevents them from using lvl 10+ combat droids. Under this variant, the lvl 4 box of Ranged Support (Marksman 0004) would include +1 Combat Droids mod, allowing a player to call one combat droid but only if they also have sufficient combat droid lvls via 0040 DE.
Under this variant, droid stimpacks and other droid healing expendibles are removed from the 0040 DE skill tree and placed in another tree so as to create a market for droid stims by those dabbling in 0040 DE. Obtaining the lvl 4 box of 0040 DE would grant the title "Droid Tactician".
Rationale: It takes 77 skillpoints to be a 0044 CH. That gives you +36 max pet lvls and +4 stored pets among many other skills including taming etc. We will focus on the pet lvls only, but we note that those same skill points give extra skills. It costs 29 skill points to get Ranged Support 4. It costs 49 skillpoints to get to 0040 in DE. Thus, under Variant #1, a dabbling Hybrid DE would have to spend 78 points and in exchange for that skill point/time expenditure the Hybrid DE dabbler would get +25-35 droid lvls. The Ranged Support tree lends combat credibility to the Hybrid DE and is harder to obtain because it requires Combat Experience.
We express max droid lvls as somewhere between 25-35 to account for droid armor resists and other factors. The final number would be chosen by the devs since they have access to more balance info (HAM, resists, special attacks, etc). The point is to get a comparable pet as you might in CH for the same amount of skill points. The proposal is flexible depending on the numbers.
Variant #2
Variant #2 is identical to Variant #1, except that the +1 Combat Droid mod is found in all lvl 4 Marksman and Brawler skill trees. The Combat Droid mod is maxed out +1 so no matter how many lvl 4 boxes a player has in Brawler and Marksman, the player only gets +1 Combat Droids. Where Variant #1 requires players to get Ranged Support 4, Variant #2 is more flexible to increase the likelihood that people will dabble in DE 0040. The skill point cost is the same.
Variant #3
Under Variant #3, the +1 Combat Droid mod is placed in the Master Artisan box which requires 77 skill points to obtain. A lot of DEs have Master Artisan due to the heavy reliance on MA components. Some have suggested putting the +1 Combat Droid mod in MA or otherwise making MA a requirement for combat droid use. Since MA requires 77 skillpoints, the droid certs would be lowered from 0040 DE to Novice DE.
Variant #4
Variant #4 is identical to Variant #1 except that it grants a small (perhaps +5) combat droid lvl bonus to MDEs. Dabblers constructing effective combat templates would be discouraged from grinding to master for such a meager combat bonus, but MDEs would get a bonus as a recognition of their mastery of the profession.
The original Hybrid DE plan is at:
Cross posting from the other thread:
Lonkley wrote:
Ranged 4 i felt was always an example (granted one we pushed since its particularly hard to gain). But any Melee/Marksman 4th box could be substittued and maintain the point signifigance. or you couldhave a Marksman tree and a Melee tree have a +1 Droid, and have a cap at +1.
I think which skill was less important that the method proposed.
So you could put +1 in each tree of marksman/brawler and have a +1 cap so they dont stack, then everyone would be happy.
or your could put +1 in unarmed, and +1 in ranged support, again capping.
I agree. A combo of variant #2 and #4 has always been my personal favorite since it really opens up the dabbling possibilities. I voted for variant #1 and #4 because I felt that the Range Support 4 requirement would be more palettable for the devs since it requires combat exp.
I wish there was a Combat Exp requirement in brawler but there is not.
Lonkley wrote:
Ranged 4 i felt was always an example (granted one we pushed since its particularly hard to gain). But any Melee/Marksman 4th box could be substittued and maintain the point signifigance. or you couldhave a Marksman tree and a Melee tree have a +1 Droid, and have a cap at +1.
I think which skill was less important that the method proposed.
So you could put +1 in each tree of marksman/brawler and have a +1 cap so they dont stack, then everyone would be happy.
or your could put +1 in unarmed, and +1 in ranged support, again capping.
I agree. A combo of variant #2 and #4 has always been my personal favorite since it really opens up the dabbling possibilities. I voted for variant #1 and #4 because I felt that the Range Support 4 requirement would be more palettable for the devs since it requires combat exp.
I wish there was a Combat Exp requirement in brawler but there is not.
That's my thinking, too. To me, "Ranged Support" is about battle tactics, and that's what you'd need to control a squad of combat droids. From a "This Makes Sense" perspective, nothing else would suffice (except maybe putting combat droids in Squad Leader, but that'd make them too inaccessible). In my opinion, allowing any Marksman or Brawler with a Rank 4 skill to get Combat Droids would make fortoo many dabblers.
I don't see this as unfair to the Brawler classes - they just specialize in a type of combat that is not combatible with handling a troop of droids. All Combat Classes aren't created equal.
Alacrity wrote:
That's my thinking, too. To me, "Ranged Support" is about battle tactics, and that's what you'd need to control a squad of combat droids. From a "This Makes Sense" perspective, nothing else would suffice (except maybe putting combat droids in Squad Leader, but that'd make them too inaccessible). In my opinion, allowing any Marksman or Brawler with a Rank 4 skill to get Combat Droids would make fortoo many dabblers.
I don't see this as unfair to the Brawler classes - they just specialize in a type of combat that is not combatible with handling a troop of droids. All Combat Classes aren't created equal.
I say too bad for the brawlers too, if we start thinking that every combat class has to have equal access, what about the combat medics? Or CHs?
I see two reasons for ranged support 4:
1. It's not a traditional combat tree, there are no certs for weapons in it.
2. Difficulty of getting it, because of the combat xp.
EDIT: Kollos makes good points, about droids and ranged combat, and althoughI think its "weird" too,it looks to bethe only waycombat droidscan easily happen, and isnt too far off the bat.
OFF TOPIC: Boy do we all have some nice icons 
Message Edited by EricTheGreat on 03-17-2004 04:36 PM
Alacrity wrote:
That's my thinking, too. To me, "Ranged Support" is about battle tactics, and that's what you'd need to control a squad of combat droids. From a "This Makes Sense" perspective, nothing else would suffice (except maybe putting combat droids in Squad Leader, but that'd make them too inaccessible). In my opinion, allowing any Marksman or Brawler with a Rank 4 skill to get Combat Droids would make fortoo many dabblers.
I don't see this as unfair to the Brawler classes - they just specialize in a type of combat that is not combatible with handling a troop of droids. All Combat Classes aren't created equal.
It would be interesting to see what the devs have to say about this "ranged weapon" emphasis. I strikes me that variant #2 SEEMS more like a certs plan than Variant #1. Neither is a certs-for-every-body plan, however, because of the separate 0040 DE requirement.
Again, I prefer Variant #2 which puts ranged and melee types on equal footing, but I suspect Variant #1 will be more acceptable to the devs.
The tactics idea does fit will with Range Support, but you can also imagine a melee type wanting to go in close and have their droid backing them up or a managing aggro by pulling mobs off of them. I've used droids like this with my alt before: I get the probot to hit the second ronto and get aggroed while I pound on the first one. I can see it both ways.
Alacrity wrote:
I don't see this as unfair to the Brawler classes - they just specialize in a type of combat that is not combatible with handling a troop of droids. All Combat Classes aren't created equal.
I mostly agree to that statement, after all they can still alter their character to get Ranged 4. No matter what to use droids, people will have to alter their templates.
But lets look another way. Its logical to put Ranged Support as the requirement. But as we know, logic has little to do with game development.
The issue the devs are possibly (who knows, since its the melee classes that have brought the point up) looking at is for current players, Marksman will have an "easier" time to get droids than the brawlers. Then they start chanting words like balance. So looking at it from that perspective, any ideas?
How about Entertainer Healing 4? That way no one has an advantage 
im joking im joking!
How about Hunting 4? That may be a little more "fair" and the name/description does sort of apply tactical concerns.
But again, it would really help if the DEVS told us any weakness so we could contemplate that.