Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Droid Decay system, detailed description.
/bow
Batleh wrote:
Yes, I agree with decay, however, who says we have to force every droid to have to be replaced?
I don't think we should be looking to "replace" droids, per se. We should be looking for a system that ends up with the equivalent maintenance expenditure which equals the purchase of a new droid (over X amount of time).
That's key.
The reason is that people don't want to 'lose their buddies' but they can't just get a Surgical that never takes any sort of damage. Combat droids are going to have to be considered a touch differently since they do have a mechanism in place for taking damage. Utility droids right now, do not. That's bad (since it equates to one-time sales).
There are a lot of combat droids out there, infact, they're the majority of what I sell now days. Those droids will decay through combat use. If we add low power decay, they'll decay even faster.
Not if the player uses batteries, like they are supposed to...
Preventative maintenace and power == no/tiny decay
Neglect == faster decay
That's going to be a lot of droids to repair/replace. If normal droids start to decay when they're out of power, that again is more droids that we have to repair and replace (oh the buff bots will hate that).
But, right now, the buffbots are getting a free ride (so to speak). Any utility droid user that can purchase a droid that never takes damage or requires repair is going to have their experience change. If we want to do what's right for the DE profession...this has to happen.
Coming up in JTL, it's sounding like to do specific things in your ship (redirect power, minimal repairs, etc), you're going to need a droid. If your ship gets blown up, your droid should take a hit to. Again, more droids that will have to be repaired and replaced.
Yup. That equals more DEs which equals a better, more diverse marketplace. This is, in part, what we are after.
And I'm a bit confused, how is battery based decay better for customers?
I think the point is that it's no different for customers. What's key is that those that ride on never giving a droid a battery (like they were supposed to need to) will now need to buy batteriesor face the faster decay rates.
The same thing happens with vehicles. If it's out/called, it's taking 'Vitality' hits...
No one freaks over that. It's the way of things. Customers will get used to this change and move on, I suspect. What's important is what this change does for the DE profession over the long haul.
[snip]
I very much understand how trivial money in this game as an elite. That's not the point. Money isn't the issue. It's the fact that I feel that basing decay on re-charging your droid is the wrong way to do this, and will lead to a negative customer experience.
As opposed to a one-time-sale DE market which equals a negative crafting profession experience?
People don't seem to bat an eyelash at the need to repair/replace weapons, armor, vehicles, etc.
Why shouldn't droids be different?
And you also have to remember, not everyone in game is a combat elite, not everyone can pull in a million credits per doc buff, (and don't let the docs hear your say that, they'll start charging 100k for buffs instead of 10k). Entertainers, newer players, non-master crafters, etc all should have a reasonable expectation of being able to buy a droid and keep it around for a good long while.
And they will. The time frames I'm seeing right now seem to suggestion 60-100 hours of actual, in-game droid use before it would become close to 'disabled'.
And...I have a Master Musician that can easily make up the cost of a new droid in a matter of days. So, just on that one example, we shouldn't be too worried about that aspect. It's true that money isn't necessarily hard to come by if you're an average player. Over the lifetime of a droid, it should be quite easy indeed to set aside enough funds to have it repaired or replaced (likely several times over).
Respectfully,
/bow
Batleh wrote:
Hey Ock :-)
Yeah, I understand that "battery decay is what the majority want" but darn it, I don't. So I'm going to be grumpy about it for a while, no hard feelings to anyone. :-) I don't believe that the sky will fall, I just think it's the wrong way to go about doing it.
....then what's the right/better way?
Believe me, this is all just talk. The table is totally open. And I know that if Drashk sees an idea that does seem to work better, he'll meld it into his proposal.
I don't necessarily want to make droids that people need, I want to make droids that people want.
I'dkind of like both.
I'd much rather have people say "Hey, I'm going to go get another droid" than "Yeah, I need to get another droid." I know it's semantics, but it does make a huge difference in how you're perceived. They changed things around with stats migration a while back so that people "needed" an ID, and I'm sure you remember the fuss over that.
And the fuss is now pretty much died down. Players will always hate any changes that is even marginally perceived to have a negative impact on their personal gameplay.
However....we have that situation now (with no decay) so we are right to think about how to change the system to be more correct and fair.
Droids have the potential to impact a heck of a lot more players than the stats change did, and I so don't want to stand in front of my customers and say "Oh yeah, that new use a battery decay your droid thing, yeah, the DE's asked for it."
..."cause it was the right thing to do."
I understand your take on this Baelor. I do. However, does it make sense that droids don't decay (even though there are systems in place now referring to the fact that they are supposed to)?
I mean...
How many Surgical droids do you see in use with 0 damage/wounds (and likely 100% Vitality). I suspect most all of them you see are like this. Cause we don't have decay...and that's only one example.
I'm sorry.....but that's unworkable and unhealthy for the DE profession. Plain and simple.
And why isn't an entertainer a good example? The effects modules are exactly the kind of thing we really need to get droids into the populace. You're right, Entertainers don't need them, but they want them because they're fun to have. That in my book is perfect!
Yea...we need to focus on features for the future have real practical purpose and usefulness and fun.
Decay isn't fun...but it is needed. Most all DEs that I've seen or talked to would agree with this.
Respectfully,
TheRealTK421 wrote:/bowBatleh wrote:
Yes, I agree with decay, however, who says we have to force every droid to have to be replaced?
I don't think we should be looking to "replace" droids, per se. We should be looking for a system that ends up with the equivalent maintenance expenditure which equals the purchase of a new droid (over X amount of time).
That's key.
The reason is that people don't want to 'lose their buddies' but they can't just get a Surgical that never takes any sort of damage. Combat droids are going to have to be considered a touch differently since they do have a mechanism in place for taking damage. Utility droids right now, do not. That's bad (since it equates to one-time sales).
There are a lot of combat droids out there, infact, they're the majority of what I sell now days. Those droids will decay through combat use. If we add low power decay, they'll decay even faster.
Not if the player uses batteries, like they are supposed to...
Preventative maintenace and power == no/tiny decay
Neglect == faster decay
That's going to be a lot of droids to repair/replace. If normal droids start to decay when they're out of power, that again is more droids that we have to repair and replace (oh the buff bots will hate that).
But, right now, the buffbots are getting a free ride (so to speak). Any utility droid user that can purchase a droid that never takes damage or requires repair is going to have their experience change. If we want to do what's right for the DE profession...this has to happen.
Coming up in JTL, it's sounding like to do specific things in your ship (redirect power, minimal repairs, etc), you're going to need a droid. If your ship gets blown up, your droid should take a hit to. Again, more droids that will have to be repaired and replaced.
Yup. That equals more DEs which equals a better, more diverse marketplace. This is, in part, what we are after.
And I'm a bit confused, how is battery based decay better for customers?
I think the point is that it's no different for customers. What's key is that those that ride on never giving a droid a battery (like they were supposed to need to) will now need to buy batteries or face the faster decay rates.
The same thing happens with vehicles. If it's out/called, it's taking 'Vitality' hits...
No one freaks over that. It's the way of things. Customers will get used to this change and move on, I suspect. What's important is what this change does for the DE profession over the long haul.
[snip]
I very much understand how trivial money in this game as an elite. That's not the point. Money isn't the issue. It's the fact that I feel that basing decay on re-charging your droid is the wrong way to do this, and will lead to a negative customer experience.
As opposed to a one-time-sale DE market which equals a negative crafting profession experience?
People don't seem to bat an eyelash at the need to repair/replace weapons, armor, vehicles, etc.
Why shouldn't droids be different?
And you also have to remember, not everyone in game is a combat elite, not everyone can pull in a million credits per doc buff, (and don't let the docs hear your say that, they'll start charging 100k for buffs instead of 10k). Entertainers, newer players, non-master crafters, etc all should have a reasonable expectation of being able to buy a droid and keep it around for a good long while.
And they will. The time frames I'm seeing right now seem to suggestion 60-100 hours of actual, in-game droid use before it would become close to 'disabled'.
And...I have a Master Musician that can easily make up the cost of a new droid in a matter of days. So, just on that one example, we shouldn't be too worried about that aspect. It's true that money isn't necessarily hard to come by if you're an average player. Over the lifetime of a droid, it should be quite easy indeed to set aside enough funds to have it repaired or replaced (likely several times over).
Respectfully,
TK -
That's basically my point. We don't have to add battery decay to get the decay job done. Low Power tricks will impact the buff bots and normal users that don't keep batteries on hand, and will pretty much force an increase in battery sales. If what we're looking for is a maint cost to off set the price of a new droid over some time, how is selling crates of batteries and repair kit different? If they buy a droid from me now, and come back regularly for batteries and repair kits (which in the long run will outstrip the original cost of the droid), how is this a bad thing for me as a crafter? Look at the console market. They're taking a hit on that console you bought because they know you'll be back to get games and extras that will more than cover the loss on the original console. And remember, we're going to be getting new things for droids to do over time. As new players come in, new droid features show up, and older players want to try new things, they'll come to us looking for new droids. If you really feel the need to have forced decay, why not tie it to how often a droid is called? (yeah, I know, old argument right?)
It's not that I don't want decay, it's that I disagree with the "add a battery, hurt the droid" method we're proposing.
TheRealTK421 wrote:
How many Surgical droids do you see in use with 0 damage/wounds (and likely 100% Vitality). I suspect most all of them you see are like this. Cause we don't have decay...and that's only one example.
I'm sorry.....but that's unworkable and unhealthy for the DE profession. Plain and simple.
How decay works aside, the surgicals that are running around with no wounds and 100% vitality, I really don't think of them as an issue. Sure, they might not be buying repair kits from me, but they will be buying batteries from me or someone else. The fact that they're not buying repair kits is going to be offset by the fact for every doc bot I sell, I'm currently selling 10+ combat droids, and those 10 combat droid owners are buying droid stims and repair kits every week or so. These are the players that are much less likely to flinch at buying a new droid because they're also the ones who are used to burning through armor and weapons regularly.
Batleh wrote:
TK -
That's basically my point. We don't have to add battery decay to get the decay job done. Low Power tricks will impact the buff bots and normal users that don't keep batteries on hand, and will pretty much force an increase in battery sales. If what we're looking for is a maint cost to off set the price of a new droid over some time, how is selling crates of batteries and repair kit different? If they buy a droid from me now, and come back regularly for batteries and repair kits (which in the long run will outstrip the original cost of the droid), how is this a bad thing for me as a crafter? Look at the console market. They're taking a hit on that console you bought because they know you'll be back to get games and extras that will more than cover the loss on the original console. And remember, we're going to be getting new things for droids to do over time. As new players come in, new droid features show up, and older players want to try new things, they'll come to us looking for new droids. If you really feel the need to have forced decay, why not tie it to how often a droid is called? (yeah, I know, old argument right?)
It's not that I don't want decay, it's that I disagree with the "add a battery, hurt the droid" method we're proposing.
Message Edited by Beery on 07-27-2004 12:09 AM
The Power Core - Ack! Please don't force me to have yet another craftable component for all my droids. If it's optional, then sure, like the idea but with a slight twist -
Droid Power Core -
Advanced Droid Power Core -
Batteries - Unfortunately, I think that batteries will still be the norm for charging a droid. Power droids are just too inconvenient to deal with, unless this causes players to setup shop as spam powerstations in starports.
The Power Droid - Your comment about the power droids is a bit unclear. You state that they can't be recharged, but do they run out of power? I'd like to say no, they don't, but if that's the case we have to remove their module slot, otherwise they'll be a non-decaying droid that people will buy and never use as a re-charging station.
Recharging from a Power Droid - The flat "use a power droid, loose 5 vitality" thing seems unfair to the lower level power modules. I'm not sure if this was intentional, but for 24 hours of use, your level 1 core would take a vitality hit of 20 with your current numbers. Might as well just use batteries. Assuming we go with the droid power core/adv power core, I think the normal power core droid should only loose 3 vitality, while the adv power core would loose 5 form a power droid recharge. This will give the more advanced droid a little bit longer lifespan (assuming no repairs) but not a 5x longer lifespan as you propose.
Warnings - We also need to make sure that some warnings get built into the system to let players know what the state of their droid is. If the droid is within 10 minutes of running out of power, it needs to start displaying the "Low Power" warning then. When it actually hits 0 power, it needs to alert that it has "No Power". It would be nice if there was some sort of effects to go along with this, such as a dying warble and maybe the droid leaning forward in a powered off state such as you can see in when you look at shutdown 21-B's by the medic trainers. The droid should definitely stop moving, stop functioning, and stop making sounds.
Batleh wrote:
Comments non "insert battery, hurt droid" related :-)
The Power Core - Ack! Please don't force me to have yet another craftable component for all my droids. If it's optional, then sure, like the idea but with a slight twist -
Droid Power Core -
5 - 7 hours of usage depending on experimentation.
Optional Slot, non-stackable
Fits in Blueprints 1 and 2 droids. (yes, this means that a normal mse droid can't have a power core)
Found in Droid Construction Techniques 1
Advanced Droid Power Core -
18 - 24 hours of usage depending on experimentation.
Optional Slot, non-stackable
Fits in Blueprints 3 Droids and up.
Requires Light Power Core Unit from Novice Architect
Found in Droid Construction Techniques 3
The problem with this is that even with a downside (droid decay) many people don't think the Devs will go for longer lasting power on Droids. I think we have a shot at it, if we do add a downside.
You could make factory runs on my proposed Power Core, 1000 would last a long time, I would easily do that, if it meant I would sell more droids.
Batteries - Unfortunately, I think that batteries will still be the norm for charging a droid. Power droids are just too inconvenient to deal with, unless this causes players to setup shop as spam powerstations in starports.
If 50% of your friends had power droids, how inconvieninat would that be?
The Power Droid - Your comment about the power droids is a bit unclear. You state that they can't be recharged, but do they run out of power? I'd like to say no, they don't, but if that's the case we have to remove their module slot, otherwise they'll be a non-decaying droid that people will buy and never use as a re-charging station.
Hmmm good point, didn't think of that. Your right, they wouldn't run out of power, just vitality when they wereused to re-charge another droid.
Yea pull the module slot then, after all, they have a purpose now.
Recharging from a Power Droid - The flat "use a power droid, loose 5 vitality" thing seems unfair to the lower level power modules. I'm not sure if this was intentional, but for 24 hours of use, your level 1 core would take a vitality hit of 20 with your current numbers. Might as well just use batteries. Assuming we go with the droid power core/adv power core, I think the normal power core droid should only loose 3 vitality, while the adv power core would loose 5 form a power droid recharge. This will give the more advanced droid a little bit longer lifespan (assuming no repairs) but not a 5x longer lifespan as you propose.
Don't forget you can repair vitality as well.
Lower level power cores are not suppossed to last as long. 24 hours of actual use is still a lot of use. Plus don't forget, you can stack level 1 power cores if that is all you can make.
People SHOULD be looking for the DE's who make better power cores, this adds diversity.
Warnings - We also need to make sure that some warnings get built into the system to let players know what the state of their droid is. If the droid is within 10 minutes of running out of power, it needs to start displaying the "Low Power" warning then. When it actually hits 0 power, it needs to alert that it has "No Power". It would be nice if there was some sort of effects to go along with this, such as a dying warble and maybe the droid leaning forward in a powered off state such as you can see in when you look at shutdown 21-B's by the medic trainers. The droid should definitely stop moving, stop functioning, and stop making sounds.
Yea, I was actually hopeing for a nice "boom" explosion around like 10% to wake people up. Then as you went down to 5% you would see smoke, and parts falling. At 5% when you actually hit the low power condition and started to lose vitality, it would get really bad.
Straker_Atrella wrote:
The problem with this is that even with a downside (droid decay) many people don't think the Devs will go for longer lasting power on Droids. I think we have a shot at it, if we do add a downside.
You could make factory runs on my proposed Power Core, 1000 would last a long time, I would easily do that, if it meant I would sell more droids.
Well, I'd still prefer not to HAVE to make one for every droid.
If 50% of your friends had power droids, how inconvieninat would that be?
50% of my friends? that's a rather wildly optimistic number. Power droids will have the basic problem that they do nothing for "Me". Given the choice between an mse with 10 storage and a power droid, I'm betting most players will go for the mse. I'm sure that you'll probably have some people buying them to setup power stations in starports or in cities and whatnot, but I still don't see a huge market for them. Now... if we were able to use them to charge our own droids, a command in the datapad or something who knows, then they suddenly become a much bigger ticket item.
People SHOULD be looking for the DE's who make better power cores, this adds diversity.
Well, I just wanted to point this out to make sure that it was understood. If that's the plan, then sure. The only issue I have with that it that it continue to reinforce the "if you're not a master, I don't want it" mentality of this game. What would be wrong with letting a lower quality power core "last" as long as a higher quality one? The big penality of the lower level core should be how long you go between charges, not how long your droid lasts.
Yea, I was actually hopeing for a nice "boom" explosion around like 10% to wake people up. Then as you went down to 5% you would see smoke, and parts falling. At 5% when you actually hit the low power condition and started to lose vitality, it would get really bad.
Well, I wouldn't actually start blowing the droid up because of a low power state, I'd reserve that for when it starts to loose functionality/HAM/etc as the vitality heads south. Smoke at 50%, burn at 25%, go boom at 5%, and at 0, just fall to bits.