Droid Engineer Archive

Thread: EMM and EGP Experimentation?

Auladan
Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:21 pm
#14

Good grief Pallida, it's a game, not a science project.

I also have to disagree with you, assuming that you feel higher quality subcomponents yeilds noticeable benefits (you seem to be playing the devils advocate without a difinitive stance, hence my assumption). I don't think the quality of the subcomponents matter at all. They've definately never improved any of my droids.

Though, what's all this baseline, analytical comparitive talk? All you need to do, to see if the subcomponents make a difference, is build two exactly identical droids, with one using poor subcomponents, and the other with high quality, experimented components. If their's no difference in damage, speed, accuracy, speed of movement, range of targeting, HAM, ect, then they obviously don't do jack.

Simple.
Pallida
Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:36 pm
#15








Handsnake wrote


That was me.


I one star all your trolling posts, especially those that seem to be for attention-getting purposes only. Have ever since your troll post in the pit droid thread where you burbled garbage about your personal, hideously wrong definition of "depreciation". (Keep your day job and stop pretending to be an accountant. It makes us real accountants cranky, and makes you even more irritating than usual).



Furthermore, as the above poster pointed out, it is impossible to prove a negative, as you well should have known from paying attention in even a 100 level logic class. The burden is on you to show a probable trend by using 99% experimented set of EMM's and EGP's in Arakyds and compare them to 10 or 18% unexperimented subcomps in other runs of arakyds.


You should do a minimum of 10 tests for each and note if there is a significant/any difference in the following:


1. Charges


2. Failure Rate (eaten by space slugs, meteorite hit, etc)


3. Speed


IF you notice and record actual changes in this series of test, then you have a possible reason to question experimentation. Until that point, you are simply posting trolls, and are contributing nothing but rants to the discussions. Remember - the burden is on you to show that experimentation DOES make a difference from non-experimented items.


Furthermore, the GUI code has nothing to do with experimentation. :rolleyes: Quit bandying random terms that you do not fully understand. It's irritating and it's not at all helpful, since you are pretending expertise. Also, work on your people skills buddy.



Repub

-BS CSE '86 NAU

-BS Accountancy '98 NAU








Is ok Handsnake.. You couldnt possibly know that I am a professional applications developer... You couldnt possibly know that I am a professional Oracle RDBMS adminstrator and designer... You couldnt possible know that I have been such for a VERY long time.


And, you couldnt possible know that I won't lower myself into the primordial slime in order to return the one-star favors... since they carry no weight with me...


What you CAN know, since I'll tell you, is that I dont have to prove anything... other than that folks here dont speak "with facts"when speaking about the "tests" and what they "reveal". Rather, (in large part) they speak only supposition, and conjecture based ona flawed analytical procedure. I'll continue making folks aware that all these "facts in evidence" are simply the results of improper research.


Call me a troll... call me any name you like... I have a thick skin.. It wont change the fact that there ARE no facts regarding experimentation and resource quality... for ALL components in a droid. Folks have claimed test results... I'll grant that test results are fine.. where test results can be properly quantified. Unfortunately, unless there is a "hidden" developer speaking about "the test results", all "unquantifiable test results" must be considered invalid and/or subjective. Plain and simple.


None of us, myself included, has any right to state that using superior materials and experimenting on any component and any effect, positive or negative, on a component where we cannot see the results quantified.


Enjoy your long list of accreditations... I am sure you earned every one of them. But, as you have so succinctly put it... "Don't give up your day job... leave scientific analysis to those of us that are well-versed in it."


sssssssssssssssSSS(:-<



- Account: Master TKA (cancelled)
- Account: Master Doctor (cancelled)
- Account: Smuggler (cancelled)
- Account: Master Chef (cancelled)
- Account: Master Droid Engineer (activity suspended pending developments)
Total loss of annual revenue (SOE): ~$715US to ~$900US
- Bad press: Priceless
Should Sony and Lucas Arts be worried? (15000 users * 5 accts = ~$13MIL in potential lost gross annual revenue) If I were the CEO for either LA or SOE, I would certainly be worried.
Kollos
Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:37 pm
#16






Pallida wrote:



Ah yes.. the inevitable claim of "statistical analysis"... and what is the baseline that was used for comparison? There had to be a baseline in order to prove one thing over another.Any first-yearscience major should confirm this. So.... what was used? Did the testers manufacture their own baseline? hmmm????





All you need is relative values where the differences are quantifiable. Such as identically created components using identical resources with the only difference being a controlled experimentation level.


Simple, entry level data analysis. Any high school math student should know how to do it. I've seen several tests done to these types of standards and none of them have shown any kind of statistically relevant difference. Translation: all differences were well within the margin of error for the test in question.




Kollos Orcslayer : Master Droid Engineer : Master Artisan

Droids by Kollos -840, 3980 Seacht, Naboo (NW of Keren)
Bounty Hunter Droids by Kollos 4924, 6107 550m SW of Kaadara
Vehicles and Master Artisan Components also available
paying 250k/point for Droid Assembly Skill Tapes, minimum of +4

Pallida
Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:41 pm
#17






Kollos wrote:





Pallida wrote:



Ah yes.. the inevitable claim of "statistical analysis"... and what is the baseline that was used for comparison? There had to be a baseline in order to prove one thing over another.Any first-yearscience major should confirm this. So.... what was used? Did the testers manufacture their own baseline? hmmm????





All you need is relative values where the differences are quantifiable. Such as identically created components using identical resources with the only difference being a controlled experimentation level.


Simple, entry level data analysis. Any high school math student should know how to do it. I've seen several tests done to these types of standards and none of them have shown any kind of statistically relevant difference. Translation: all differences were well within the margin of error for the test in question.







hmm... and where, since this started with EMM and EGPMs... are the values on these items, and their effects on Droids, "quantifiable?"


Please enlighten me, for I seem to have missed that portion of the Droid Engineer's Handbook.


ssssssssssssssssSSS(:-<



- Account: Master TKA (cancelled)
- Account: Master Doctor (cancelled)
- Account: Smuggler (cancelled)
- Account: Master Chef (cancelled)
- Account: Master Droid Engineer (activity suspended pending developments)
Total loss of annual revenue (SOE): ~$715US to ~$900US
- Bad press: Priceless
Should Sony and Lucas Arts be worried? (15000 users * 5 accts = ~$13MIL in potential lost gross annual revenue) If I were the CEO for either LA or SOE, I would certainly be worried.
Handsnake
Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:49 pm
#18

Okay, Pallida

Arakyd droids


1. Charges (ARE THERE DIFFERENT NUMBERS ? ) You can tell if the number changes. This is a valid test

2. Failure Rate (NOTE FAILURES ON 10 MARKS) You can record this by using 1 and 0 for a value of FAILURE. This is a valid test.

3. Speed (HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE?) Use a stopwatch. Record the time using Excel for crying out loud. As before, a valid test.


Glad to see you got a good db job right out of high school, kiddo.




Repub Arnaz
~~MDE/MWS/MArtisan

Lovely Goontown, Naboo
I live in Goontown. I forgot where my house is.
WTB - Pantaloons
Auladan
Tue Apr 20, 2004 1:50 pm
#19

[quote]Please enlighten me, for I seem to have missed that portion of the Droid Engineer's Handbook.[/quote]

Would you 'please' stop being so cocky?

Now. What we're saying is, if there is no identifiable change in two exactly identical droids, where one has advanced components (experimented, with high quality resources), and one has pitiful components, then they obviously didn't affect anything. If there's no changed number on the final droid, then what 'else' could have possibly been altered?

Nothing.

And, if by some funky chance the subcomponents quality 'did', on some level or miniscule number, change the droid, the alteration is too unidentifiably small (i.e., won't effect gameplay 'at all') to be worth anyone's time.
Gavvot
Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:00 pm
#20

My advice : ask a BH.

They use those droids, they should know if some are good or bad.



--
How to make a link in those forums
Look sir, droids. -4689 3336, Naboo, Theed
Kollos
Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:11 pm
#21






Pallida wrote:


hmm... and where, since this started with EMM and EGPMs... are the values on these items, and their effects on Droids, "quantifiable?"


Please enlighten me, for I seem to have missed that portion of the Droid Engineer's Handbook.




Oh, I'd be happy with anything observable at all.


We're not looking for exact data values. Anything at all that is observable would suffice. If it isn't observable in any way, then it isn't relevant.


I really don't understand what yourpoint is. There's simply no proof that EMM and EGPM have any effect on the completed droid at all. Furthermore, every test I have seen has actually shown the opposite - each and every one of those tests has shown conclusively that the subcomponents had NO effect on the test.


So once again, if you feel that subcomponents (whether EGPM, EMM, or some other)have an effect on the final outcome of a droid, you're going to have to prove it. I have seen no evidence to support that, and I have seen plenty of evidence that contradicts it.



Kollos Orcslayer : Master Droid Engineer : Master Artisan

Droids by Kollos -840, 3980 Seacht, Naboo (NW of Keren)
Bounty Hunter Droids by Kollos 4924, 6107 550m SW of Kaadara
Vehicles and Master Artisan Components also available
paying 250k/point for Droid Assembly Skill Tapes, minimum of +4

Pallida
Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:45 pm
#22






Auladan wrote:
[quote]Please enlighten me, for I seem to have missed that portion of the Droid Engineer's Handbook.[/quote]

Would you 'please' stop being so cocky?

Now. What we're saying is, if there is no identifiable change in two exactly identical droids, where one has advanced components (experimented, with high quality resources), and one has pitiful components, then they obviously didn't affect anything. If there's no changed number on the final droid, then what 'else' could have possibly been altered?

Nothing.

And, if by some funky chance the subcomponents quality 'did', on some level or miniscule number, change the droid, the alteration is too unidentifiably small (i.e., won't effect gameplay 'at all') to be worth anyone's time.





And that is not quite accurate... what started this was this statement.. given to a newbie.. as a statement of "fact"....


"It makes no difference at all..."


All I am trying to make evident is this.... "We don't know if there is in fact a difference that we cannot properly quantify". Given this, we should NOT, in good conscience, tell a newbie to never use good resources and to never experiment on subcomponents. We just... don.t... know.


sssssssssssssssSSS(:-<



- Account: Master TKA (cancelled)
- Account: Master Doctor (cancelled)
- Account: Smuggler (cancelled)
- Account: Master Chef (cancelled)
- Account: Master Droid Engineer (activity suspended pending developments)
Total loss of annual revenue (SOE): ~$715US to ~$900US
- Bad press: Priceless
Should Sony and Lucas Arts be worried? (15000 users * 5 accts = ~$13MIL in potential lost gross annual revenue) If I were the CEO for either LA or SOE, I would certainly be worried.
Kollos
Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:50 pm
#23






Pallida wrote:


All I am trying to make evident is this.... "We don't know if there is in fact a difference that we cannot properly quantify". Given this, we should NOT, in good conscience, tell a newbie to never use good resources and to never experiment on subcomponents. We just... don.t... know.





There are a number of theorems in physics and mathematics for which we have no proof, yet they are still generally accepted as fact.


Evidence exists to support my claim that they make no difference at all. Do you have any evidence that my claim is actually false, or are you just arguing for argument's sake?





Kollos Orcslayer : Master Droid Engineer : Master Artisan

Droids by Kollos -840, 3980 Seacht, Naboo (NW of Keren)
Bounty Hunter Droids by Kollos 4924, 6107 550m SW of Kaadara
Vehicles and Master Artisan Components also available
paying 250k/point for Droid Assembly Skill Tapes, minimum of +4

Gavvot
Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:56 pm
#24



Kollos wrote:


Pallida wrote:

All I am trying to make evident is this.... "We don't know if there is in fact a difference that we cannot properly quantify". Given this, we should NOT, in good conscience, tell a newbie to never use good resources and to never experiment on subcomponents. We just... don.t... know.

There are a number of theorems in physics and mathematics for which we have no proof, yet they are still generally accepted as fact.

Evidence exists to support my claim that they make no difference at all. Do you have any evidence that my claim is actually false, or are you just arguing for argument's sake?






Like 1+1=2 and other dumb stuff ?



--
How to make a link in those forums
Look sir, droids. -4689 3336, Naboo, Theed
Kollos
Tue Apr 20, 2004 2:59 pm
#25






Gavvot wrote:

Like 1+1=2 and other dumb stuff ?




No, actually, I used to be able to prove that 1+1=2.


One of the classes I took (Elementary Real Analysis)started out with the professor asking the class to prove that numbers exist. Talk about shifting paradigms without using the clutch...



Kollos Orcslayer : Master Droid Engineer : Master Artisan

Droids by Kollos -840, 3980 Seacht, Naboo (NW of Keren)
Bounty Hunter Droids by Kollos 4924, 6107 550m SW of Kaadara
Vehicles and Master Artisan Components also available
paying 250k/point for Droid Assembly Skill Tapes, minimum of +4

Pallida
Tue Apr 20, 2004 3:06 pm
#26






Handsnake wrote:

Okay, Pallida

Arakyd droids


1. Charges (ARE THERE DIFFERENT NUMBERS ? ) You can tell if the number changes. This is a valid test

2. Failure Rate (NOTE FAILURES ON 10 MARKS) You can record this by using 1 and 0 for a value of FAILURE. This is a valid test.

3. Speed (HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE?) Use a stopwatch. Record the time using Excel for crying out loud. As before, a valid test.


Glad to see you got a good db job right out of high school, kiddo.







/sigh


Well.. gee.. thank you, Handsnake.. However... hmmm.. how can I put this... yer about 13 years off the mark...


I was retired from the Navy in 1981. The last two years of my Navy career, since I was no longer medically qualified to fly an A6, was spent in designing,deploying and maintainingmainframe-systems applications at the Naval War College. so.... I would suggest.... umm... well... perhaps I dont want to decend to your level.


Suffice it to say that I am very good at my job... and a lot of folks, across the Northern Hemisphere, pay me very well for my talents.


sssssssssssssSSS(:-<

Message Edited by Pallida on 04-20-2004 05:07 PM



- Account: Master TKA (cancelled)
- Account: Master Doctor (cancelled)
- Account: Smuggler (cancelled)
- Account: Master Chef (cancelled)
- Account: Master Droid Engineer (activity suspended pending developments)
Total loss of annual revenue (SOE): ~$715US to ~$900US
- Bad press: Priceless
Should Sony and Lucas Arts be worried? (15000 users * 5 accts = ~$13MIL in potential lost gross annual revenue) If I were the CEO for either LA or SOE, I would certainly be worried.
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