Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: DROID MODULE FOCUS? COMBAT MODULES?
As far as the resource harvesting providing higher yields, do you even read the posts by the various testers of droids with 6 harvesting modules. Apparently not as many as I have at least as they are all indicative that it does NOT produce more or at a stretch slightly more (within 1 or so though). Not a tremendous increase. You didn't even address the stacking issue, I can hit my harvest/loot macro, target another and repeat as many as I want, with them stacking. With the droid you have to wait inbetween each one. And yes you can get all kinds of loot from things, I mean just Rancors drop Hide, Bile, Padded Segments, Teeth, and actual loot items like weapons/armor.
I'm not ignorant of how DE's/Droids work or how they have worked up until now, but the fact remains that, as you imply, you have to be exceptionally creative in using droids to provide ANY benefit over doing things without them. That's NOT what people need or want they want droids that do what they can't AND/OR to do things better than they can without them. What part of that is hard to understand?
Padre
Jenden wrote:
PadreBook wrote:
Guess what I have done my research, and several of your answers are either misleading or directly evasive. One, EVERY single person I've talked to about the survey droid says that they need to provide the stats of the resources for it to be remotely useful to them, particularly given that they take 15 minutes per resource type per planet. Which I person go to any starport on a given planet and open up each of their tools and get all of that information faster than that AND be able to sample and find out the stats. So buy something that may or may not be cheaper than just flying there, hmm not a high likelihood of high sales there.I'd like to see you go to every planet in 15 minutes.... If you could only launch one droid at a time, you might have a point, but since you can launch 100 if you want these things are a huge time saver. Besides which, your assuming you lose those 15 minutes... but instead of sitting there waiting for the droid, you could go stock vendors, start factories, hang out with friends, go hunting, or whatever else you feel like. the time spent with the droids is about 30 seconds.
As far as price goes, you can get at least 12 uses (thats at 80%) out of one droid.... figuring the droid costs about 250 resources I think it is (even at 10 cpu thats only 2500 credits). I'd say being able to get a list of minerals on every planet (with some charges to spare) for 2500 credits is a bit cheaper than going to every planet yourself.
Ok what about stats? Yes you can use them to see if an unusual named resource spawns--lidium extrusive, class 4 petro, etc. and you can use them to see if a resource you are harvesting has shifted. So yes they aren't completely without use once they are FIXED to that level even. The Stats are what would change them from slightly useful to a blockbuster megahit of the scale that would allow DE's to actually have a large source of steady income outside of selling master artisan items and BH droids.
Padre
/bow
PadreBook wrote:
Guess what I have done my research, and several of your answers are either misleading or directly evasive.
Please point these out, specifically, and I (or another TC tester) will do our best to resolve this.
I didn't "evade" anything...I can say that much.
One, EVERY single person I've talked to about the survey droid says that they need to provide the stats of the resources for it to be remotely useful to them, particularly given that they take 15 minutes per resource type per planet.
Well...this might not happen. I've already put this forth to the Devs but they may well have their reasons for not doing this.
And....................by the way, I've seen a lot of people that DO find value and usefulness in the Survey droid (yours truly included).
If you don't find it useful, fine................................don't use one.
Could they be better? Sure.
I would actually state that you should consider yourself lucky that we ever HAVE what we do now.
Which I person go to any starport on a given planet and open up each of their tools and get all of that information faster than that AND be able to sample and find out the stats. So buy something that may or may not be cheaper than just flying there, hmm not a high likelihood of high sales there.
I guess we'll see. I don't expect to sell 100 of these to every person walking around. However, I do expect to sell some.
I understand your concerns, believe me.
If I used, for example, 5 of these atalmost the same time, I'd get resource information back from 5 planets. Do you see that as really being possible in about 30 minutes (with starport waits, ticket prices, etc.)?
I don't. I see me out hunting or running about doing other things while the survey data is being retrieved for me. That's the point. You get some of the information relatively easy while you're free to do other things.
If this droid doesn't appeal to you (yet), then don't use one. In the meantime, I've put forth the concerns we all have on the state of this feature. We might well see it get altered down the line (if we raise it high on our list of issues). For now, assume it will run pretty much as you see now.
As far as the resource harvesting providing higher yields, do you even read the posts by the various testers of droids with 6 harvesting modules.
Hmmm...yea, like the Corrs? And the others?
Yes, I read them all. I can see a 20% increase being reported...depending on the way the droid is made.
Apparently not as many as I have at least as they are all indicative that it does NOT produce more or at a stretch slightly more (within 1 or so though). Not a tremendous increase.
This is dependent entirely upon the Harvest bonus of the droid.
You didn't even address the stacking issue, I can hit my harvest/loot macro, target another and repeat as many as I want, with them stacking. With the droid you have to wait inbetween each one. And yes you can get all kinds of loot from things, I mean just Rancors drop Hide, Bile, Padded Segments, Teeth, and actual loot items like weapons/armor.
Agreed. I concede the "Loot" issue...but I don't see it getting added before the publish. I have put this issue on the list of concerns (which is about all I can do right now).
And...on the macro thing: What of those that do not use macros?
Not everyone uses them or visits the forum to find the best one. I think part of the thing here is that they would prefer people not use macros to do this sort of thing but that's a separate issue.
The issue at hand is the "utility" of this module to the players at which its use is targeted.
I'm not ignorant of how DE's/Droids work or how they have worked up until now, but the fact remains that, as you imply, you have to be exceptionally creative in using droids to provide ANY benefit over doing things without them.
Perhaps....maybe that's what is intended. They have to be careful to not make the droid actually DO all this stuff for you outright.
Keep in mind.......this module is a starting point. The details and stats can always be adjusted down the line to make the module more useful as needed.
That's NOT what people need or want they want droids that do what they can't AND/OR to do things better than they can without them. What part of that is hard to understand?
I understand your comments just fine. I just happen to think they step beyond what we will realistically ever see. The Survey module is a good example.
If the email returns all info on a planet, what's the point of ever going past Novice Artisan to do the Survey tree?
The point is...they aren't going to have the email report effectively negate the existence of the Survey tree, the need to hand-sample (at times), etc. That's part of the survey 'game' and I don't see it changing (even though it's what players often want).
People want things in the game, very often, for self-motivated reasons (i.e. "What does this DO for me?!?!?").
That's not the way that droid features get added.
They are not going to add anything or create any module that allows people to do something that they "can't" already.
It will likely be to make some things better/easier. But they won't totally remove the responsibility from the player. That's a pretty hard rule to live by (and one that it sounds to me like you're asking them to break).
Padre
Respectfully,
Well fine, novice artisan can't get all the info, what about master artisan that would be a huge perk AND fit in with one of the things that the Artisan community has been asking for, which is a bonus of some sort to surveying at master artisan. I do like all the people on different threads that suggest survey IV, but no I suggest master artisan, because that's more appropriate.
Padre
/bow
PadreBook wrote:
Ok what about stats?
Do you want the droid to bring you some of the stuff too?
How about some Survey XP added on top of that?
Maybe it could return the top 5 waypoint concentrations (and even report how many harvesters are there, so you'll know not to head out there).
Seriously....there's a balance-point for how far this can go. I understand your concerns and agree that we need to look at how we can reach the best balance.
I just don't think you're giving this a fair shake yet, to be honest.
Yes you can use them to see if an unusual named resource spawns--lidium extrusive, class 4 petro, etc. and you can use them to see if a resource you are harvesting has shifted.
Add: "....while you are free to do other things."
THAT is the point, Padre.
So yes they aren't completely without use once they are FIXED to that level even. The Stats are what would change them from slightly useful to a blockbuster megahit of the scale that would allow DE's to actually have a large source of steady income outside of selling master artisan items and BH droids.
The issue is how including stats might not be balanced vis a vis the survey 'game'. I fear that if they do add stats, that it will be aslippery-slope sort of issue.
People will beat them up to start adding concentration waypoints or any of the items I put forth above. It simply has to stop somewhere. We are trying to find out what that balance point is right now and it's easier for them to get the basic functionality in place, check their metrics and then see howit can be (or even if it should be)expanded down the line.
Keep in mind.....................................we are lucky to even have what we do now. You should count your blessings instead of looking a gift-horse so specificially in the mouth. We need to let people 'take it for a ride' for awhile before figuring out if/how to make the horse better.
Padre
Respectfully,
/bow
PadreBook wrote:
You say that people are reporting 20% harvesting increases, I've been seeing reports that they just harvest the same and that is on droids with 6 modules etc.
Things change on TC all the time, first off. Nothing is set there, since the whole point is to 'tweak', in part.
I've seen those reports by master DE's and by ranger types working with DE's. Including in threads you have posted on, which is specifically why I'm saying you are being misleading as you are picking the 1-2 guys that are giving you the good news and ignoring a whole lot of others.
I'm not ignoring anything. I'm putting for the information that I can confirm appears to be the most 'real' and correct, given my testing, testing done by other TC DEs and the reports I get from the Corrs. using the droids I made them.
A Harvest bonus 120 droid should yield a 20% increase. That's not too hard to surmise.
And.........since it's all in testing right now, anything can (and sometimes does) change. I think you're assuming these things are set in stone. We don't know yet how things might change on TC prior to the publish. It seems you're indicting these modules and feature even before they are fully out.
Well fine, novice artisan can't get all the info, what about master artisan that would be a huge perk AND fit in with one of the things that the Artisan community has been asking for, which is a bonus of some sort to surveying at master artisan.
I've already put something forth for this. We might get it, we might not. It's all about finding that balancebetween utility and "free checkers". The TC DEs are pretty much gathering info on all this right now that can be used to check on whether or not those sorts of changes are possible or needed.
As stated..........if you don't like a droid feature, don't use it.
I do like all the people on different threads that suggest survey IV, but no I suggest master artisan, because that's more appropriate.
I tend to agree. However, it makes more sense (in the long run) to me that they scale this in some manner.
So, perhaps the higher you climb on the Survey / MA trees, the more 'stuff' you get from this. That might well be something we can push in the future but I wouldn't count on that to make it to TC or Live at this point.
We just need the thing to fully function first.
Padre
Respectfully,
No, we aren't "lucky" to be getting this much... we PAY for this game and up until now it has been horribly deficient. Don't start spewing that crap at us.
There are 2 easy places to "draw the line" so to speak. One is where we currently think it has been drawn, which is for the droid to just return resource names and types. A few people believe that just a list of resource names will be useful. More people believe that it will only be marginally useful if they believe it will be useful at all. I draw the line there based on market purposes - people will buy something they believe is useful, but are not likely to buy something they believe is only marginally useful.
The second logical place to "draw the line" is with stats being returned, but no concentrations. Besides just being a convenient place to draw a line, this one is also a likely place where there's a significant amount of additional coding that would have to be done. Reporting stats on all of the resources would be very useful to everyone - including the people who don't think it is necessary - and would give us a desirable product.
I understand the concern about it taking too much away from the Surveying "game", but it seems like the Devs are willing to give other professions (Chef, Bio-Engineer) checkers but not Droid Engineers. You simply cannot tell me that the Chef foods added in their revamp weren't checkers. They're making huge money now and are a vital part of the game. What's being added for Droid Engineers is, by and large, merely interesting. It's not going to make Droid Engineers a vital part of the game, nor is it going to give us a strong and persistent market.
Detonation modules might have a decent market. The Entertainment modules don't decay, so the market for those will be temporarily good and then fall back to the current level of Medical modules. I see all of the other modules except for the Survey module falling in with the Entertainment modules, so I really want to see the Survey module improved so that we gain a viable, marketable product.
"They can fix that later" is meaningless, because they'll have other priorities. We either get it now or we'll probably never get it at all.
/bow
Kollos wrote:
No, we aren't "lucky" to be getting this much... we PAY for this game and up until now it has been horribly deficient. Don't start spewing that crap at us.
That's not what I meant, Kollos. I know as much as anyone how much has been lacking.
I was stating that we were lucky that we got as much squeezed into the this publish as we did. They didn't really "have" to add the previously unannounced items...but they busted their _____ to make it happen.
There are 2 easy places to "draw the line" so to speak. One is where we currently think it has been drawn, which is for the droid to just return resource names and types. A few people believe that just a list of resource names will be useful. More people believe that it will only be marginally useful if they believe it will be useful at all. I draw the line there based on market purposes - people will buy something they believe is useful, but are not likely to buy something they believe is only marginally useful.
Well...I think the resource list is pretty much a slam-dunk (without having seen the 'real' email report yet).
The stats? I guess it might be possible but I just haven't heard anything back on this yet. They might well be coding how all this will balance right now. /shrug
If nothing else, they are seeing these arguments and comments and will be able to make changes based on what's possible prior to the publish.
There's a chance that they have the ability to add stats to the report (perhaps even certed to the user's Survey skill level) but just not the time. We just don't know yet.
The second logical place to "draw the line" is with stats being returned, but no concentrations. Besides just being a convenient place to draw a line, this one is also a likely place where there's a significant amount of additional coding that would have to be done. Reporting stats on all of the resources would be very useful to everyone - including the people who don't think it is necessary - and would give us a desirable product.
I would agree. This seems the logical place to draw the line. I just don't know yet if:
- it's an option (to do in time)
- it's an option (to do ever)
- it's too imbalancing (for whatever reason)
Right now, I don't know where this will shake out....but I know that the concerns are being seen/heard. So, maybe that will count for something on this specific issue.
I understand the concern about it taking too much away from the Surveying "game", but it seems like the Devs are willing to give other professions (Chef, Bio-Engineer) checkers but not Droid Engineers. You simply cannot tell me that the Chef foods added in their revamp weren't checkers. They're making huge money now and are a vital part of the game. What's being added for Droid Engineers is, by and large, merely interesting. It's not going to make Droid Engineers a vital part of the game, nor is it going to give us a strong and persistent market.
Debatable, at best. I understand your points here, Kollos. I just don't know if (or how much) of it can be realistically addressed before Tues.
It may well be that they need to introduce these features as a baseline to work from, such that they could be adjusted (as our droid HAM's were) down the line.
And, you're correct that there's nothing in place to make droids an out-and-out "requirement". By the same token, no one "has" to use Chef foods. It helps, most certainly.........but is not an "requirement".
I know that many DEs don't feel like our profession is as needed as it really should be. I think that what's been put forth will help (for now). No...it's not an end-all-be-all publish but I don't think that was in the cards for us.
Keep in mind, when Space hits, our 'vitality' will be increased once again (in addition to whatever we can do to continue this until Space).
Detonation modules might have a decent market. The Entertainment modules don't decay, so the market for those will be temporarily good and then fall back to the current level of Medical modules.
After P8 hitsLive, I'll be revising the Top issues thread to re-prioritize. Working up a better vitality/decay type system(to help ensure repeat sales) is one of the higher items that I think we should focuson.
I see all of the other modules except for the Survey module falling in with the Entertainment modules, so I really want to see the Survey module improved so that we gain a viable, marketable product.
Indeed...and this has already been put forth. That's about all I can do for now.
"They can fix that later" is meaningless, because they'll have other priorities. We either get it now or we'll probably never get it at all.
We don't know this. They can very likely tweak/add/adjust these items down the line. But...I don't want to get off into conjecture. That's not going to move us forward.
I have to focus on the here and now...
Respectfully,
I'm seeing my newly crafted (2 nights ago)Probot Adv.as having:
31xx HAM
Attack: 0.77
To Hit: 0.4
Damage: 160-168
I'm seeing R3 Adv HAM up around the 3.8k HAM area.
The LE Adv. I've heard of come in around 5k HAM but the CR rating will obviously be quite a bit lower (due to the number of modules).
This is a 'combat-only' Probot Adv with 5 Combat modules. The CR rating on this guy was 411. Not the greatest, since I just used what I had on hand at the time.
/bow
Respectfully,
The 20% armor limit is the equalizer, though... but really, I don't mind lower armor rating as much as I like higher HAM/combat ratings. Those are the first numbers customers look at, so that really helps.
5K HAM for a repair droid is interesting... they're the most spindly looking things, but apparently they know kung-fu.
Is the HAM for the Binary Load Lifter being increased any? I'm guessing not, since they don't use combat modules...
Message Edited by Daltek on 04-21-2004 05:51 PM
/bow
Daltek wrote:
5K HAM for a repair droid is interesting... they're the most spindly looking things, but apparently they know kung-fu.
Keep in mind that the damage output from the LEs is pretty....errr...'spartan'.
Is the HAM for the Binary Load Lifter being increased any? I'm guessing not, since they don't use combat modules...
This should only apply to 'combat' models...so the BLL is out (for now).
Respectfully,