Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Fostering better DE communication or Why this DE forum needs a memory wipe...
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Kilarny wrote:
I volunteer to referee the AudioOrgana vs. TheRealTK421 cage match!
Kilarny,
Whether most people know it or not...Audio and I really probably want the same things.
I dunno. /shrug
/bow
Respectfully,
/bow
I just wanna see some blood! 
TheRealTK421 wrote:
I've never wanted to "shame" anyone here, Audio. All I wanted was to try to help the DE boards return to some kind of civil state, which I think we can all agree was not the case for some time. These boards really got to be a very ranty and negative place.
Was that a fun time? Should we try to revert to that?
On a side note, I've always been a big proponent of shame... shame as a motivator to get the developers and SOEto fix this game, butnever towards any of my fellow DE's.
I'm also going to make an obtuse, potentially inflammatory comment. The fact that we're just now seeing some good, positive, and constructive changes to the DE profession is great, heartening, and most welcome. However, these changes probably had their genesis during the time when the DE forums were the most vocal, scathing, negative, critical, and opinionated.
Did our incessant pressure, critiques, sabre-rattling, and "awareness raising" posts in the DE forum and throughout all the forums in some small part help to achieve the good changes we may be seeing today?
In my opinion? Yes. Most definitely.
Am I suggesting we return to a seething quagmire of baseless negativity? No. Not at all. However, you have to recognize that much of the critical and negative statements made in these forums were certainly far from baseless, and continue to be so.
I'm all for a community... nay... we SOE customers continuing to voice strong, critical, opinionated, and on-target discussions with an end goal of improving the professions and the game in general.
On a side note, I've ratcheted down my negativity lately. Why? Because we're seeing results, not because I'm heeding a clarion callto "play nice Virtanis".
The more improvements and fixes I see, the less negativity from me.
(heh, I made a rhyme)
Look....I know that trying to have a rosy outlook is often pretty laughable as relates to DEs and our situation. No one knows it better than I (and you, I'm sure, can agree with that).
I guess I just don't see why I'm getting lambasted for trying to ask for everyone to simply be nicer (yes, even if it was from correspondence with a Dev).
Is that wrong?
Nope, not wrong at all. But Like I said above, niceties from me are tied to seeing some real results from SOE, not the standard aloofness, vapidreplies,inattention, or empty promises.
Virtanis wrote:
On a side note, I've always been a big proponent of shame... shame as a motivator to get the developers and SOEto fix this game, butnever towards any of my fellow DE's.
I'm also going to make an obtuse, potentially inflammatory comment. The fact that we're just now seeing some good, positive, and constructive changes to the DE profession is great, heartening, and most welcome. However, these changes probably had their genesis during the time when the DE forums were the most vocal, scathing, negative, critical, and opinionated.
Did our incessant pressure, critiques, sabre-rattling, and "awareness raising" posts in the DE forum and throughout all the forums in some small part help to achieve the good changes we may be seeing today?
In my opinion? Yes. Most definitely.
Am I suggesting we return to a seething quagmire of baseless negativity? No. Not at all. However, you have to recognize that much of the critical and negative statements made in these forums were certainly far from baseless, and continue to be so.
I'm all for a community... nay... we SOE customers continuing to voice strong, critical, opinionated, and on-target discussions with an end goal of improving the professions and the game in general.
On a side note, I've ratcheted down my negativity lately. Why? Because we're seeing results, not because I'm heeding a clarion callto "play nice Virtanis".
The more improvements and fixes I see, the less negativity from me.
(heh, I made a rhyme)
I was half-way through replying when this came up, and have decided against it since Virtanis has reminded me why I feel strongly about this in the first place. I am not on a crusade against anyone, I was simply trying to make the three points that Virtanis made above.
1) I also believe that there was a direct correlation between our "negative" comments over the past eight months and what action we have finally seen.
2) I don't think most of the "negativity" was baseless - in fact, I think most of it was simply people reacting to the situation in an honest fashion. And, as we have learned time and time again the squeaky wheel gets the grease - while I have little tolerance for being squeaky for squeaky sake (just like I have little for positivity for positivity sake) I do not believe in sugar-coating my feelings in a client/provider realtionship as we have here. The Devs are not our friends, they are the providers of a service. They also espouse to care about what the community thinks - this is why "just leave" isn't valid. If the Dev team comes out and says, "We are closing the boards because we don't care - play the game as-is because your comments mean nothing" that's one thing, but they cannot have it both ways : they cannot talk in interviews and on the boards about how open and responsive they are to the community and expect people at the same time to "put up and shut up" if they see things happening that they feel are negatively affecting the game.
3) We have no direct control over SWG, we have not control over what the Devs give us beyond what they choose to listen to. It's very simple - give us positive attention and they will recieve positive results. Misappropriating comments ("DE's overwhelmingly said they want a Droid Handler profession), asking us the same questions over and over yet not listening to what is answered, repeated demonstrations of lack of knowledge about the very mechanics of the profession (clear domed R2's), and giving us a bone finally with the Droid Invasion yet completely ignoring the huge number of bugs are not "positive" steps by the Dev team. How many DE's would have been happy if Goranath's bug list was actually addressed and all the additions kept until the base profession was fixed? Positive in, positive out; negative (or non-existant) gets negative back.
That's the big picture here - the tone of players interacting may have been heated, but it wasn't this pit of hate that you have conjectured. There was a great amount (and still is) of negativity directed towards the Dev team simply because they have set the bar by their lack of and now, type of, attention. If anything, it united the true DE's. Those DE's you quote who say they don't come here because of the negativity should have simply shown the other side of the situation - in this case, I simply don't believe there was much of one : I think those people simply didn't like facing the reality of the situation. In essence, "If you don't vote, don't *self-edit*." If they did nothing to contribute, to change what they percieved as "negativity" by contributing positively, their opinion is moot.
If we were in the position to set an example I would believe more in positivity for the sake of it, but in this case the reactions of many, many individuals speaks much more loudly and it's up to the people in control (the Developers) to set the example with action.
Finally, I play the game to have fun - I don't come to the boards for amusement. I come here to work and raise awareness so I can actually have fun when I am in-Galaxy. It's not my concern if the boards are "fun", it's my concern that they produce results.
Audio
Aye. That's most definitely true.
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
I think there's lots of combat fatigue on these boards from months of waiting for change patiently and months of making constructive and creative suggestions for improvements. Its understandable that DEs are a haggard bunch these days. I know I am.
I'm seeing some cause to rejoice (via a 990 HAM Probot and other things). I worry, however, that no DE changes could ever make this crowd happy. Seriously. That's an issue that won't ever end here. There's been like 100s of awesome ideas here. I'd be surprised if, over the life of the game, even 10% of them actually ever come to pass (and even if they do, they might well be lackluster implementations of said ideas).
All I've ever wanted was to:
- make cool, interesting and useful droids (service or combat, not important which)
- have fun doing other stuff (themeparks, other professions, etc.)
- help other DEs (via DEA/DENet) in whatever way, which I believe (and pretty well know) is good for everyone.
In some ways, I'm sure I've failed...in other ways, I feel like I've been able to do all that.
/bow
Respectfully,
Sodan-droiddreamer wrote:
I think there's lots of combat fatigue on these boards from months of waiting for change patiently and months of making constructive and creative suggestions for improvements. Its understandable that DEs are a haggard bunch these days. I know I am.
/bow
Virtanis wrote:
You got that right...
At times, it's feltlike we've directed so much constructive and positive energy directed towards a Dev team that more resembles a 10 foot thick concrete retaining wall.
Yup. And when they fail to come back and answer issues or lay out much-needed information, the DE board starts to turn on itself and the flame-fests increase. In that regard, their silence often tends to breed discontentment, which in turn leads to people just lashing out.
There isn't a week that goes by where I don't consider pushing that cancel button. When considering the equation: player_input + developer_ability + time = good_game; I can't believe that the player operand is the problem. Time is also something this company has had plenty of.
Not if you look at other MMOs that are 'on deck'. If they think they have time....they better think again.
I've never been more frustrated with an MMORPG than I have with SWG, maybe it's because my hopes were higher for this game.
Yes...that'sa big concern for me too. Honestly, I don'tthink SOE (much less ANYgaming company) could everattain whatthe broadplayerbase hadhoped(or still hopes)whatSWG can "be".
In that regard, we probably all sort of expect more than one company candeliver, regardless of how well theycode or how much money they can throw at a problem.
It's similar to voice-recognitionsoftware (for end-users on PCs). It takes a long time to 'train' the software and, even then, it still often falls short of what users envisioned and hoped to get.
Then again, my hopes didn't even extend to outrageous "cool stuff" since, shortly after launch, my hopes were more grounded and along the lines of stable/usable chat, factories that worked, and not having my friends get stuck downstairs in a PA hall.
And don't forget....shuttleport ticket droids getting stolen. That was the best.
It's true that the game has come a long way, in some areas. We just haven't been the beneficiaries of that yet...and it REALLY stings.
Somewhere, in the back of my mind, I can really see SWG eventually not even having droids. 95% of the players I talk to know next to nothing about them.
That's just freakin' sad.
And I haven't even begun to consider the DE issues yet...
We have issues?
I guess I can't see them from behind my rose-colored glasses.
Respectfully,
TK, please stop projecting things upon me regarding my personality - as I have said, it has not changed. Unlike you, my opinions don't sway in a manic fashion.
I am glad that you are happy that the verterans are leaving and can put a positive spin on things,because Ifind it utterly sad.
To suggest that I do not have a right to express my opinions on the state of the DE profession is laughable from someone who up until a few weeks ago was the biggest "ranter" on the boards ("Come on Devs, you knew you were getting one of my supa-famous breakdowns taking you down!". And then you got star-struck by a PM (again,nothing very rare - I've gotten Dev replies just about every time I have sent one) and came in here to shame people whowere simply being realistic as you were once upon a time.
You have said several times that all kinds of people see this dramatic change in me, when I think you need to look in the mirror.
The reason I questioned this thread is because you talked a great talk about positivity yet it's all frickin' talk. Just as I said at the time, it was rhetoric - as soon as I challenged you to actually DO something positive instead of TALK about the state of positivity you disapeared, and I have yet to see any actual result from your reverse-ranting.
Audio
Sorry TK i didnt mean disrespectful to you, I dont read the boards anymore due to the lies and spin fest thunder and his cronies throw out. I am just waiting on WoW to come out.
I guess when you said to audio quite bla bla it struck a cord, No i dont think ranting will help, Frankly Thunderfest has shown time and time again NOTHING does.
Anyway hope the best for you and im sorry someone is one staring you,
Sins