CUEmu - Thread Posts

Casaad

Fri Mar 19, 2004 6:17 pm

First I just wanted to say that there are 3 reasons I wanted to play a SWG MMORPG.

1) Jedi (I got this. You think DE and droids are broken? Woah! Try the jedi profession.)

2) Own my own spaceship (coming soon?)

3) R2 and C3PO. For me,Star Wars was always about Jedis and Droids, Droids and Jedis(but droids are near useless right now and will continue to be if the rest of this post isn't strongly considered by the devs)

I don't believe droidsneed to be balanced with pets. We don't really need some hybrid Droid/Creature Handler profession. We already have Creature Handlers.

What I truly believe we (both DE's andtheir customers)could benefit from is this:

1) Droids withutility functions that go way beyond the current utility functions (there are plenty of great suggestions on the forums for this so won't elaborate on this one.)

and

2) Combat droids of any level useable by anyone. Why do you need to balance this and make it like Creature Handler? The balance is built in by allowing ANYONE to use ANY level of droid. If you make the higher level droids cost a hell of a lot more to build and maintain, then you prevent newbs from owning and maintaining one. And if the newb has rich friends, then great! Come on, let us have some fun. I'm so tired of the greediness, rare blah blah,holding back everything that could be potentially fun. Especially loot drops, but that's for another thread. I'd even suggest requiring rare resources and loot drops to make high CL droids, but this would just lead to the HUGE dissappointment that is called RIS armor.

Allowing ANYONE to use any level droid is AUTO BALANCE. Profession X gets no advantage over Profession Y because they can both own the most elite droid, if they can afford it.

This makes TOO much sense. Especially when you consider that droids are sentient. They aren't like a dumb pet. Sure they are programmed to follow their masters, but in the end, they can figure things out on their own. This is why we shouldn't need a profession to use them, train them, program them. Let the Droid Engineersdo the programming/training.Letus usethe combat droids regardless of their level. Just make them UNGODLY expensive to build/maintainbased on their CL level. That's where your so called "balance" comes in.

If the devs create some kind of Droid/Creature Handling profession to control Droidshigher than CL 10, they will ruin Droid Engineers and droids in general. Why? Because A CL 10 droid is usesless to anyone halfway through an elite combat profession. And again, we don't need another Creature Handler profession controlling pets dressed up like droids. Just let it be. Let us have some fun with droids regardless of profession. Isn't that why some of us work so hard to earn credits? To spendthem on something fun, like a cool droid? I don't want to spend skills pts and cash on a cool droid.

Things are bad for DE's and droid owners both. They will only get worse if the devsdon't realize that any level droid should be useable by any profession player. Let the build and maintenance costs even the playing field here, not skill points. This will give people and incentive to get out and earn some money, to buy an AWESOME droid and still play their favorite professions.

....but alas. I feel this argument will fall on deaf ears (or blind eyes, if you want to "look" at it that way)

/sigh

casaad

EnigmaBSc

Fri Mar 19, 2004 6:59 pm

#2

Casaad wrote:
Allowing ANYONE to use any level droid is AUTO BALANCE. Profession X gets no advantage over Profession Y because they can both own the most elite droid, if they can afford it.

The problem is that this is NOT auto balance. At the moment Master Bounty Hunters are supposed to be x% better comabatants than Master Carbineers. This is because Master Bounty Hunter is more difficult to achieve and costs more in terms of skill points. Lets assume for the sake of argument that x = 10%. Now give a Master Bounty Hunter and a Master Carbineer each a high level droid, say each as powerful as the Master Carbineer is. Now the Master Bounty Hunter is only 5% better than the Master Carbineer. Furthermore the Master Bounty Hunter without a good combat droid is only as good as a Novice Carbineer with a good combat droid (or maybe even worse). You've just made it a REQUIREMENT for all combat characters to own good combat droids. While this might be desirable from a Droid Engineer's point of view (Can you say 'demand > supply'?) it is not fair on the combat classes. In addition you now need to scale all of the MOBs in the game so that the Master Bounty Hunter with good combat droid cannot solo everything with ease. This introduces a problem with the starting planets. Do you scale up the MOB's because otherwise things become too easy for the newbie's with friends, or do you leave them as they are so that the newbie's who don't get given good combat droids on their second day still have a chance?

EnigmaBSc

Jenden

Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:06 pm

#3

EnigmaBSc wrote:

The problem is that this is NOT auto balance. At the moment Master Bounty Hunters are supposed to be x% better comabatants than Master Carbineers. This is because Master Bounty Hunter is more difficult to achieve and costs more in terms of skill points. Lets assume for the sake of argument that x = 10%. Now give a Master Bounty Hunter and a Master Carbineer each a high level droid, say each as powerful as the Master Carbineer is. Now the Master Bounty Hunter is only 5% better than the Master Carbineer. Furthermore the Master Bounty Hunter without a good combat droid is only as good as a Novice Carbineer with a good combat droid (or maybe even worse). You've just made it a REQUIREMENT for all combat characters to own good combat droids. While this might be desirable from a Droid Engineer's point of view (Can you say 'demand > supply'?) it is not fair on the combat classes. In addition you now need to scale all of the MOBs in the game so that the Master Bounty Hunter with good combat droid cannot solo everything with ease. This introduces a problem with the starting planets. Do you scale up the MOB's because otherwise things become too easy for the newbie's with friends, or do you leave them as they are so that the newbie's who don't get given good combat droids on their second day still have a chance?

EnigmaBSc

Bingo.

It may autobalance (doubt it would but you never know) but it wouldrequire people to have combat droids, whether they want to or not. Now I know this may come as a shock to some people, but there are those of us out there who don't like having something else fight for us, we see it as taking the fun out of things. Now, why should we be forced to use a combat pet just to live up to the potential we currently have?

Jenden Morn - Master of Droids- Tarquinas
Droid Engineer Blue Glowy
Owner, Operator, and Founder of DarkStar Inc.
Groupy of the best band in the galaxy, Solar Flair
3D art of Jenden by Saeelwenea

Porri_Sharo

Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:53 pm

#4

EnigmaBSc wrote:
You've just made it a REQUIREMENT for all combat characters to own good combat droids. it is not fair on the combat classes.
EnigmaBSc

So you don't need a gun, armor or buffs?

Sharo Droids
Keren, Naboo

Jenden

Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:05 pm

#5

Porri_Sharo wrote:

EnigmaBSc wrote:
You've just made it a REQUIREMENT for all combat characters to own good combat droids. it is not fair on the combat classes.
EnigmaBSc

So you don't need a gun, armor or buffs?

Yes, you need a gun, but when you took up a ranged combat profession you kind of signed on for that. If you want to control combat pets, pick up creature handler (or droid handler if they put something like that in).

As for armor and buffs, no you don't need them, and right now things really aren't balanced against them. You need a large group of unbuffed unarmored people to take down some high level stuff, its just that people think for some crazy reason you should be able to solo them, and thats where the armor/buffs come into play. I'd say we have to wait and see how things fall into place after they do some of the combat balance.

If nothing else, I'd consider armor pretty much part of a ranged combat profession, and either way it really doesn't affect your playstyle. you can argue the economic side of it, but from a player preference standpoint, whether you're wearing armor or not its still the same combat.

Jenden Morn - Master of Droids- Tarquinas
Droid Engineer Blue Glowy
Owner, Operator, and Founder of DarkStar Inc.
Groupy of the best band in the galaxy, Solar Flair
3D art of Jenden by Saeelwenea

Shian_Tavkin

Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:54 pm

#6

Jenden wrote:

Porri_Sharo wrote:

EnigmaBSc wrote:
You've just made it a REQUIREMENT for all combat characters to own good combat droids. it is not fair on the combat classes.
EnigmaBSc

So you don't need a gun, armor or buffs?

Yes, you need a gun, but when you took up a ranged combat profession you kind of signed on for that. If you want to control combat pets, pick up creature handler (or droid handler if they put something like that in).

As for armor and buffs, no you don't need them, and right now things really aren't balanced against them. You need a large group of unbuffed unarmored people to take down some high level stuff, its just that people think for some crazy reason you should be able to solo them, and thats where the armor/buffs come into play. I'd say we have to wait and see how things fall into place after they do some of the combat balance.

If nothing else, I'd consider armor pretty much part of a ranged combat profession, and either way it really doesn't affect your playstyle. you can argue the economic side of it, but from a player preference standpoint, whether you're wearing armor or not its still the same combat.

Jenden

Ok you admitted you dont like any kind of personal addon (pets, combat droids etc) for any reason. You would prefer the game didn't have any of them....and I was ok with that ..until you now start RECOMMENDING CH to people (all the time remembering to put in DC as an alternative even though it is a dead and buried concept)

Have I really got to follow you round the forum pointing out that you are in a minority position with your views on this?

Of course you are welcome to them, it just doesn't make sense to do what you do. Do you honestly think you will ever manage to eliminate these things and give yourself that 'really pure crafter profession' and a galaxy filled with only players? How many years have you got man? Still, keep on saying your bit by all means.

regards, sincerely

Message Edited by Shian_Tavkin on 03-19-2004 10:58 PM

Shian -- Master Droid Engineer/ Master Artisan

Casaad

Sat Mar 20, 2004 12:28 am

#7

Bingo.
It may autobalance (doubt it would but you never know) but it wouldrequire people to have combat droids, whether they want to or not. Now I know this may come as a shock to some people, but there are those of us out there who don't like having something else fight for us, we see it as taking the fun out of things. Now, why should we be forced to use a combat pet just to live up to the potential we currently have?

The poor man is at a disadvantage to the rich man. The stubborn are at a disadvantage to the open-minded.

If you choose to be lazy, like many players I know, then you won't be able to afford a high level droid, and thus you should be at a combat disadvantage. It'sthe same with owning elite armor, weapons and equipment over someone with substandardequipment.Sorry BHs, but if aCarbineer (or any other combat prof) hasworked his butt off to earn a good droid, in addition to his profession,then he deserves a combat advantage over you. So,get out there and earn a combat droid of your own as well.

And, no one said you HAD to own a droid. But like doc buffs, smuggler buffs, chef buffs, armor, weapons etc, a droid could simply be another toolthat you must work hard to be able toafford for yet another advantage over your adversary.

Bonus Effect: This also encourages players to contribute to the community by trying to earn money making quality goods so they can afford quality droids. This stimulates the economy, so it's good for a number of reasons.

As for the stubborn, choosing not to use a droid is like choosing not to use doc buffs, smuggler buffs, chef buffs, armor, varied weapon damage typesetc. If you don't use every tool at your disposal, you'll have to find other ways of overcoming/outwittingyour enemy.

And, it would feel much more Star Warsy to have lots of people with cool customized droids following them around instead of goofy looking pets marching through the city. Thank goodness I don't see a million Graul Mualers following everyone around anymore.

It pains me to think that a personhas to give up their beloved professions (again, thx hologrind) to own a droid.

P.S. I noticed that my original post has had quite a few views and has earned 5 stars.If you see the logic in this PLEASE post your response here. Let's get the devs to really consider this before they ruin droids a second time around. Or will the next patch be considered thethird time around? ...Let's make this game more fun... to theForce Gods I pray =)

casaad

Casaad

Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:57 am

#8

Perhaps you're just saying, "well that shouldn't be the structure." There's your moot point right there. That's the structure, that's the mold, that's what we've got to work with. Deal with it.

First off, please lose the hostility. It's not contructive. Thank you. I will try to maintain a constructive demeanor also and not let any of my responses become the so called "troll" responses.

So, on with the discussion....

The community is obsessed because the game needs useful droids and has been lacking them since the beginning. This doesn't mean the jump has to be made without thought. I think perhaps my resolution was either not fully explained or not fully understood. And I'm not saying this just because you disagree with it. I'm saying this because of your disregard of the details.

So, to clear things up, let's use some examples: Let's takeUberJoe for example. UberJoe has been playing since the start. UberJoe has an 8 digit bank account and the perfect profession template forhis preferred playing style, whatever that might be. UberJoe wants to buy an UberDroid, but in my scenario, Uberjoe doesn't need another profession to control the UberDroid. Everyone can use any level droid.

Ok, so UberJoe spends a ton of money on UberDroid. UberDroid was hard to get because certain resources had to spawn to get UberDroid. Maybe UberDroid also needed an UberLoot to make him so uber. Ok, now UberJoe is reluctant to buy every member of UberGuild a droid because it required both a lot of time and money to make.

Now, UberDroid goes out with UberJoe to fight. UberJoe goes to hunt Krayts, but UberDroid can barely tank it even with the help of UberStims. UberStims? Yes, Uberstims. You see, UberDroid isn't like the other droids. He's so high level that he needs special stim/repair kits rated for his CL level. Guess what, these UberStims aren't easy to make. They require rare resourcesto make. UberStims are very expensive. Also, UberDroid should have to visit the garage or something similar to heal wounds. This too is expensive. Very expensive. The game could use another money sink anyways I'm sure.

So, UberJoe realizes that UberDroid is expensive to heal with UberStims and wounds are expensive to heal because you can't use pet wound packs on them, which we shouldnt be able to. Now UberJoe only uses UberDroid occassionaly because it's so hard and expensive to keep healed and maintained.

This creates both the novelty of owning an UberDroid and using one. Albeit, it won't replace his combat completely, but will be nice when he feels he has the time and money to spend on it's upkeep to use it.

Compare this with the rest of the community who aren't as uber as UberJoe. They will be even less inclined to use UberDroid. Maybe only for a great guild battle or a special hunt from time to time. Why? Because they are UBER DROIDS and require UBER upkeep.

Now please, understand this only scratches the surface of the possibilities with letting any profession control any level droid. If we can wrap our minds around the WHAT IF factor, perhaps we can come up with more ways for the devs to implement the idea without totally unbalancing things. But, coming here saying things like, "the community that is so obsessed " or " Deal with it." doesn't help us iron out the WHAT IF.

This WHAT IF could benefit everyone. Not just me or you. Everyone. And it could do so without making the game suddenly lose all challenge because PvE combat becomes super easy. We need contructive thoughts on how the system might work FOR US, because obviously, it would be to our disadvantage to suddenly empower everyone with something that would make PvE too easy and not worthwhile. So please, stop with that argument. I get it. We get it. We know that's an issue. I'm trying to stimulate thoughts in addition to mine that could support this potentially HUGE FUN FACTOR and still keep things balanced, so we don't shoot ourselves in the foot down the line.

You are obviously passionateand put time into your thoughts as well. I'd love to hear your ideas on how this "ANY LEVEL droid for ANY PROFESSION" system might actually work. Because I think it can. I don't know it can. I just think it can. At least, with the rights ideas implemented. So please, let's hear thoughts, in addition to mine,on how this might actually work and not unbalance things.

Cheers,
casaad

Jenden

Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:09 am

#9

Casaad, I think you underestimate the amount of credits in game.... I know people that have well over 100 million (earned legit), I know people that frequently do missions getting them 400k per hour, and I know idiots who will go on ebay and get their 20 million credits for $80 or whatever its at now. Money isn't a hard thing to come by in this game. Yes, we need more money sinks but you also have to balance it out with how much they can gain. Say the uber combat droid is CL 50 or so, this would be enough to take out pretty heavy missions. You have to look at how much the player would be making per mission and how fast they could do these missions and make the droid cost more than that, otherwise you're just getting more money into the economy. So thats what, 200, 300k an hour or so? Not sure that would be a good design system. You can't fix balance by just throwing a credit number on things, you have to make people work for what the get.

Jenden Morn - Master of Droids- Tarquinas
Droid Engineer Blue Glowy
Owner, Operator, and Founder of DarkStar Inc.
Groupy of the best band in the galaxy, Solar Flair
3D art of Jenden by Saeelwenea

EnigmaBSc

Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:15 am

#10

Please understand - I'm not arguing these points because I like arguing and I'm not arguing them because I don't want high-level combat droids in the game. I do want high-level combat droids in the game. I just don't think this is a feasible way to do it. I'd be overjoyed if you could come up with a solution that answers all my criticisms.

Some more thoughts:

First off all, nobody has addressed my point that high-level combat droids for all will LEVEL the playing field at the top end and not BALANCE it (differences between hybrid-elite combat classes and elite combat classes will be reduced).

Porri_Sharo wrote:

So you don't need a gun, armor or buffs?

At the moment not all combat classes require a gun. Ask any Teras Kasi Master or Combat Medic. Furthermore, guns cost skill points to use. A Novice Marksman with a T21 is still no match for a Novice Rifleman with a Tusken Rifle (at least I suspect and hope so). Not being a pure combat character I don't know how much of an effect good armour has on a character but armour at least is a decaying item. Can anybody tell me the effective HAM advantage of top-of-the-line armour? Buffs are temporary in nature and are in my opinion already ridiculously overpowered.

Casaad wrote:

So, to clear things up, let's use some examples: Let's take UberJoe for example. UberJoe has been playing since the start. UberJoe has an 8 digit bank account and the perfect profession template for his preferred playing style, whatever that might be. UberJoe wants to buy an UberDroid, but in my scenario, Uberjoe doesn't need another profession to control the UberDroid. Everyone can use any level droid.

Ok, so UberJoe spends a ton of money on UberDroid. UberDroid was hard to get because certain resources had to spawn to get UberDroid. Maybe UberDroid also needed an UberLoot to make him so uber. Ok, now UberJoe is reluctant to buy every member of UberGuild a droid because it required both a lot of time and money to make.

Now, UberDroid goes out with UberJoe to fight. UberJoe goes to hunt Krayts, but UberDroid can barely tank it even with the help of UberStims. UberStims? Yes, Uberstims. You see, UberDroid isn't like the other droids. He's so high level that he needs special stim/repair kits rated for his CL level. Guess what, these UberStims aren't easy to make. They require rare resources to make. UberStims are very expensive. Also, UberDroid should have to visit the garage or something similar to heal wounds. This too is expensive. Very expensive. The game could use another money sink anyways I'm sure.

The problem I see here is that either:
A) UberDroid is as expensive to make and run as you propose and as a result only ten people on each server can afford to buy and use one.
B) A couple of hundred people on each server can afford to buy and run an UberDroid. Now UberJoe can obviously afford to buy and run 100 UberDroids, so he has no problem giving them out to other members of UberGuild.

In a perfect world I think your suggestions could work. But Star Wars Galaxies is far from being that perfect world. Newbies who should not have access to UberDroids will get access to them. Whether it be from some sugar daddy, from some exploit, from buying swg credits off of ebay or from being friends with a Master Bounty Hunter who has just bought a new SuperUberDroid and is willing to give his old UberDroid away.

EnigmaBSc

Kniol

Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:16 am

#11

Being a Master Droid Engineer, I (kind of) like the idea of Uber Droids, and not just for the aspect of it possibly making me very, very rich for a change. It would require a lot more work on my part, surveying for and harvesting the possible new and rare materials or buying new looted materials or components from those who looted them.

But how about this idea for an addendum to yours, Casaad? Make them a) require the expenditure of faction points ANDcash, and/or b)available only to Rebels, to offset the already in-game "Uber Droid" that the Imperials have, the AT-ST? The only requirement needed for the AT-ST is the expenditure of Imperial faction points, which some people have many thousands of and are willing to sell for as little as 75 credits per point (the price a BH would have to pay). Many Imperial guilds dole out faction points to new members so they can get AT-ST's, effectively unbalancing the GCW side of the game in favor of the Imperials. So now we have the possiblity of the Rebels being able to afford something equal to, or possibly even greater than the AT-ST? Gasp! Unheard of! The Imperials wouldn't stand for that! The Empire wouldn't stand for that!

But why could it not be done? Droids are already illegal in the Empire's eyes, there's just been no way for them to detect them if they're stored in a player's datapad. Keep that as it is. But anyone who walks around with his Droid (of any kind or CL, utility or combat) trailing behind should be dealt with by the Imperial enforcers the same as one found with a Sliced Weapon or piece of armor, or Spices upon being scanned.

Why couldn't a Rebel Master Droid Engineer who has been playing the game since the outset be able to create such an Uber Droid with all the resources, whether very rare or looted? Surely there are enough good minds to have been able to invent such a creature! Didn't the Rebels invent the X-Wing and a lot of other space ships, which eventually brought down even the Death Star? Didn't the Rebels invent the biological weapon that destroyed Alderaan?

Just a thought, and it might open up the game and make it a little more fun in the aspect of the GCW, making it more truely "Star-Warsy" than just the addition of a couple of higher level Droids.

But that's just my opinion, and Hey! I could be wrong!

Kniol Kiodo
Master Shipwright
Master Droid Engineer
Master Artisan (PRE-Vehicle Patch)
Vendors at (4988, -3844), just 1000m N of Moenia, Naboo
Ahazi Galaxy
"Say what you mean. Mean what you say. Do what you said."

Jenden

Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:21 am

#12

Kniol wrote:

Being a Master Droid Engineer, I (kind of) like the idea of Uber Droids, and not just for the aspect of it possibly making me very, very rich for a change. It would require a lot more work on my part, surveying for and harvesting the possible new and rare materials or buying new looted materials or components from those who looted them.

But how about this idea for an addendum to yours, Casaad? Make them a) require the expenditure of faction points ANDcash, and/or b)available only to Rebels, to offset the already in-game "Uber Droid" that the Imperials have, the AT-ST? The only requirement needed for the AT-ST is the expenditure of Imperial faction points, which some people have many thousands of and are willing to sell for as little as 75 credits per point (the price a BH would have to pay). Many Imperial guilds dole out faction points to new members so they can get AT-ST's, effectively unbalancing the GCW side of the game in favor of the Imperials. So now we have the possiblity of the Rebels being able to afford something equal to, or possibly even greater than the AT-ST? Gasp! Unheard of! The Imperials wouldn't stand for that! The Empire wouldn't stand for that!

But why could it not be done? Droids are already illegal in the Empire's eyes, there's just been no way for them to detect them if they're stored in a player's datapad. Keep that as it is. But anyone who walks around with his Droid (of any kind or CL, utility or combat) trailing behind should be dealt with by the Imperial enforcers the same as one found with a Sliced Weapon or piece of armor, or Spices upon being scanned.

Why couldn't a Rebel Master Droid Engineer who has been playing the game since the outset be able to create such an Uber Droid with all the resources, whether very rare or looted? Surely there are enough good minds to have been able to invent such a creature! Didn't the Rebels invent the X-Wing and a lot of other space ships, which eventually brought down even the Death Star? Didn't the Rebels invent the biological weapon that destroyed Alderaan?

Just a thought, and it might open up the game and make it a little more fun in the aspect of the GCW, making it more truely "Star-Warsy" than just the addition of a couple of higher level Droids.

But that's just my opinion, and Hey! I could be wrong!

X-wings were around before the rebels were, but thats besides the point. I know that the idea of droids as faction pets has popped up before, and that does work, primarily because faction pets have the kinds of restrictions on them that keeps them balanced. The down side would be, droids (or at least those used as faction pets), would have to become permadeath again, and they'd have to have the same restrictions as faction pets (can only call while you're overt, can only attack factional targets, etc). There was also the idea of building combat droids to place as base defences. Again, that really doesn't cause problems because they have their limitations. Its just giving everyone free (free in terms of non-renewable assets like skill points) battle droids with no restrictions that doesn't work.

Jenden Morn - Master of Droids- Tarquinas
Droid Engineer Blue Glowy
Owner, Operator, and Founder of DarkStar Inc.
Groupy of the best band in the galaxy, Solar Flair
3D art of Jenden by Saeelwenea

Porri_Sharo

Sat Mar 20, 2004 10:25 am

#13

Could part of our balance problem be related to the servers we play?

I see many of you talking about new players and their ability to get higher lvl equiptment or players that have varied templates from several professions. I play on Shadowfire, one of the lowest population servers. Last night I saw a new player, first time I've seen one in at least a month. I am sure that there are more, but not very many on my server. Most everyone I know or see not only is a Master of something (or 2 somethings), but also has plenty of credits. There are a handfull of large guilds and even the smaller ones are well funded.

My point is that any lvl droid should not make or break the balance of PvP or PvE on my server. Most everyone owns or could own the best equiptment made and can "plow" through most mobs now. From my point of veiw, high lvl droids would not unbalance the differences from profession to profession, they would be another peice of equiptment that a combatant uses.

BTW:
I don't think I've seen a TKM without a vibroknukler in their hand.
Armor's effect on HAM is dependent on the layers and special resists.
Buff's are in the game regardless if they are overpowered. You can't dismiss them. 2 to 3 hours is temporary, but can easily be an entire play session.

SWG is certainly far from perfect.

Sharo Droids
Keren, Naboo

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Thread: The REAL DROID FIX (Devs please consider)