Droid Engineer Archive
Thread: Repeat Droid Sales WITHOUT MANDATORY DROID DECAY
I will attempt to keep this simple and to the point so that it isn’t so long that nobody reads it...
The number one concern for some DE’s is "repeat" droid business (although this has yet to be clearly defined for some). To that end, many are in support of a "mandatory droid decay" system being implemented that basically forces players to buy an entirely new droid after a certain amount of time/use. (some have even suggested just weeks!)
I do not favor this solution, as I fear it could "ruin" what is essentially the most fun crafting profession in the game, and I present my points and alternatives below.
Again, let me make this clear that I come from a standpoint of preferring a fun crafting/gaming experience over an ever-swelling bank account, so I do not wish to compromise the true uniqueness of the profession of Droid Engineering for alternatives that solely offer credits and nothing more substantial.
Problems with a Mandatory Droid Decay System:
1. Positively leads to "crated droids" sales method; turning our very interesting profession into a copy of the other credit-centric mass-production "grind craft" professions. Why do so few DE’s make bounty hunter droids? Why do so many DE’s complain that our current "consumables" are not making them credits? Decay turns our entire profession into crated consumables.
2. Repetitiveness isn’t the same as "repeat business". Decay forces DE’s to craft, re-craft... and re-craft again the same droids over and over to replace the player’s recently "poofed" version, further adding monotony to the profession in favor of credits. All players and even you, the DE, will lose your droids regularly. We drastically change from offering a useful long-term gaming "companion" serving ourselves and others to selling throw-away mass-produced identical consumables. (again, just like every other crafting profession…you know, the ones we don’t want to play)
3. Cheapens the product. Droids should not be compared to food buffs, armor or weapons, as none of those items can be named or personally custom programmed by the player. And only some armor can be custom colored. Point being: Droids are special, and not seen as expendable consumables to most players- and DE’s should definitely not be the ones to make them such.
4. Drastically reduces the current droid sale prices; so that DE’s will be FORCED into mass-producing crates of identical droids in order to maintain anything close to their current income from custom crafting. Players will not want to pay the same price for a monthly-disposable droid that they have gladly paid for a long-term companion before. DE’s may sell more, but for much, much less - so why ruin the fun for so little gain?
Alternatives to General Decay: (in no particular order)
1. Other highly used items, like speeders and mounts, don’t decay and go "poof" for no reason. They require regular maintenance/food to keep functioning, which is a perfectly acceptable method for droids as well; that would make sure players invest in keeping their oft-used companions fully functional, make them select their droids more carefully, and not threaten to gouge our droid prices. And if DE’s provided the "overhaul" service (either via skills or kits), then we’ve added value to the profession, instead of taken it away.
2. Take care of 2 thru10 first. Fixing all the other "top 10" issues Jenden listed WILL increase repeat business, in that once those bugs/issues/functions/improvements are taken care of, players WILL come back to you and buy a new droid with new features. They always do. No, they will not come back to you in a month to buy the exact same droid, but that would not be good "repeat business"- that would be repetitive sales of a cheap consumable, and ruin the enjoyment of this unique profession. Our number one goal should always be increased functionality until we can no longer think of more ways to make droids useful to ourselves and other players.
3. Beef up Combat Decay. Make sure that Combat droids are feeling the full effect of combat decay, similar to the repair decay that weapons/armor go through. This makes sense (based on the combat model) and insures that players will need to replace their combat-bots eventually. Combat players are already used to this method, so there is no market shock or drastic price reductions needed.
4. Make droid components decay and be "upgrade-able" by DE’s. (DE’s already mass produce components anyways for their own crafting, so this doesn’t negatively affect DE gameplay or prices…) Take the best element of the Shipwright profession and add it to the DE profession. There are all sorts of rules that could be settled upon... modules can only be upgraded with similar module types... only DE’s possess the skills to make the modifications through a droid’s radial menu (no datapad loss there)... droid components would decay with use, but can be repaired or replaced by a DE so the owner can keep their favorite friend …
In Summary:
My biggest concern is what a droid decay system would mean to the enjoyment/playstyle/crafting focus of the DE profession. There are no other crafting professions as fun and diverse as DE, and it would be a tragedy to sacrifice some of the best aspects of what being a Droid Engineer means in favor of making our unique profession like all the others.
For many months in the beginning of SWG, droids were barely useful and thus barely sold. Those of us DE’s who went through that became dedicated to the profession regardless. Then, only with increased functionality did sales finally begin to happen. Another patch brought even more usefulness to even more professions and sales again rose. Now that droids are actually useful, and desired by several professions (not all yet) DE’s are looking to take away one of the biggest selling points of droids so far...that they are not cheap consumables. I cannot support that. We know players want and use droids, and so now that we have sold more droids than ever before, we want somehow to profit even more from it. This should not be the #1 guiding principal of our profession.
Please consider carefully just what "repeat business" means to you, and whether droid decay is really for the good of the profession.
AudioOrgana wrote:
I don't have time for a full reply at the moment, but here's my take on the options suggested :
1. Any type of food/vehicle system isn't helping us with repeat sales. Best we could hope for it is yet another tool to sell. This does not increase the amount of droids sold.
While this doesn't increase Droid Sales, it does provide both a "maintenance" aspect to droids (for those who feel droids should decay in some way) and allows for a possible improvement to the DE profession, either by way of a special Radial Menu Skill that only DE's can access for the "repair" preferably, or at least as another consumable kit.
2. Increased functionality without decay will only lead to the same glut we had before. We get a boon in business for awhile, but it dies down again and we are back to square one. We need a permanent solution, not a temporary one.
I disagree that the benefits of themany, many, MANY new droid functions that have been added to the game since it began are in any way "temporary". Sales will always fluctuate (thats a market thang), but the on-going addition of new functions to our droids will permanently increase sales over the life of SWG. I have sold more droids since those patches than ever before, and continue to sell droids with those very same new functions to new players and old alike. New profession-centric functions always mean more sales - during the boons and busts - over the long-haul.
3. Combat decay isn't enough - we need decay on those crafting and medical droids (some of which have been around since June 2003).
Combat decay makes sense and fits in with the existing armor/weapon decay system just fine. As I suggested above, Crafting and medical droids would have to be "maintained" just like speeders and the like if their owners want to keep them fully functioning. There is, however, no reason whatsoever for their droids to "poof" on them as long as they take care of them. I am proud to still have my very first Mouse Droid - "proto" still hanging around. That is what makes DE special and different from all the other disposable crafting professions. And for some of us, that is what makes it worthwhile to even be a DE.
4. Droids are not complex enough for a shipwright system. The reason the shipwright system works the way it does is because each and every stat on each and every component has some bearing on the operation of the ship. This is not the case with droids - only modules have any effect on the droid. Further, this turns DE's into parts monkeys and many of us want to sell droids, not droid parts.
I'm not sure about your "complex" argument here. All I am suggesting is giving DE's the ability to craft droids, and then later, through a radial menu of sorts, be able to replace or repair "decayed" modules. (similar to how starship components can be taken out and replaced with new ones) This gives DE's their "repeat business". Doesn't negatively affect a DE's playstyle (as we mostly mass-produce modules anyways). And gives both DE's and players even MORE choices with their droids. Win. Win. Win. DE's will still be crafting droids for sale of course. Let's not forget the constant influx of new players, and existing players trying new professions. This is always going on.
I don't see this great loss here if droids decay. /shrug.
I'm not sure what yourplay-style is like, but I can clearly see how mandatory droid decaywould beforcing all DE's into a position whereplayers would only want to buy crates and cratesof identical droids (boringfor the DE) or keep coming back every month to buy the exact same crafted droid again and again (monotonous in the extreme) and those same players would understandably expect to pay much, much lower prices for these now consumable items, and in effect ruin whatis otherwise the most fun crafting profession in SWG. And that doesn't even touch on what it would mean to non-DE players.
The only difference between a medical droid in your datapad and one in a deed is sixty seconds to the end user - however long it takes to tame the droid and rename it.This sixty seconds of suspension of disbelief on the part of the end user is worth DE becoming a full, self-renewing profession.
DE should become a "self-renewing profession"... you mean like the other SWG crafting professions?.... you know, the ones we don't even want to play because of their mind-numbing "mass crate grinds" and lack of permanence? Droids ARE special. Players see that. Fellow DE's see that. The DEVs even saw that (remember those 2.5 patches we got). A player can't name his food buff. A player can't personally program his blaster. A player can't customize the color of his armor (well, some armor). Don't let it be DE's who lower the importance of droids to that of a crate of food buffs.
I understand some people are caught up in the romance of it all, but in the end - a droid is a droid except for it's configuration and name. This is a role playing game - I guess people who can't get past that sixty-second change-over will simply have to find a way to justify it RPG-wise.
DE's need decay if we are going to thrive. Not a new tool, or to become parts monkeys. Romantic notions do not lead to sound gameplay mechanics.
AO
Not once have I mentioned anything about Role-playing, but it shouldn't be completely dismissed since as you say, this is a role-playing game.I personally dont role-play, but I do play my profession - as in I play SWG for Droid Engineering. And my love of my creations comes from playing the game and enjoying making a lasting impression on both the players I help, and the virtual galaxy we "live" in. I do this every time I logon to play. I sell droids nowas well... every time I logon. Thriving just fine here, thanx.... for lets see.... June of 2003....well the math escapes me, but it all adds up to gameplay mechanics that are working, andcontinue to improve with every added droid function.
Usefulness or "need" isn't likely to happen as that would require a lot more in-depth change than we are likely to see anytime soon.
Granted..........it has to be done in a way that's fair to the user....but it still needs to happen.
/bow
Respectfully,
TheRealTK421 wrote:
Well....we can call decay something else if you'd like...but that doesn't change the fact that it (or something like it) is needed to generate better repeat sales for DEs.
I am not interested in "calling" it anything else. I am just plain NOT INTERESTED in it. Now, "something like it" may be more acceptable. For instance, module decay, that allows for DE repairs and maintenance. Along with my other suggested alternatives, DE's could continue to be in fine shape financially, as well as protect what makes our profession so enjoyable.
Usefulness or "need" isn't likely to happen as that would require a lot more in-depth change than we are likely to see anytime soon.
Can't agree with you there either, as droids have clearly been a DEV favorite already. They see the importance of droids in SWG, regardless of the profession of DEs. I don't think it is unreasonable at all to expect them to continue to add more profession-centric functions as future patches and expansions are included in the game. Their track record shows us this.
In addition, I put my trust in the myriad of veteran, experienced and knowledgable DEs that share my, Drashk's and (I think) Jenden's view that decay would be a good thing for the DE players.
Not sure if this comment is directed at me personally, but I have been a DE since SWG Beta so experience in this profession is one thing I've got plenty of. I have never grinded any other professions, or given up my skills since I achieved them. Master Artisan, Master DE, Master Merchant. And this is the only character I play. That is why I am so protective of my game-play enjoyment. Perhaps others out there play multiple toons and so whatever happens to the DE profession is only secondary to them. Lets hope not.
Granted..........it has to be done in a way that's fair to the user....but it still needs to happen.
/bow
Respectfully,
I disagree that the benefits of themany, many, MANY new droid functions that have been added to the game since it began are in any way "temporary". Sales will always fluctuate (thats a market thang), but the on-going addition of new functions to our droids will permanently increase sales over the life of SWG. I have sold more droids since those patches than ever before, and continue to sell droids with those very same new functions to new players and old alike. New profession-centric functions always mean more sales - during the boons and busts - over the long-haul.
I'm not sure about your "complex" argument here. All I am suggesting is giving DE's the ability to craft droids, and then later, through a radial menu of sorts, be able to replace or repair "decayed" modules. (similar to how starship components can be taken out and replaced with new ones) This gives DE's their "repeat business". Doesn't negatively affect a DE's playstyle (as we mostly mass-produce modules anyways). And gives both DE's and players even MORE choices with their droids. Win. Win. Win. DE's will still be crafting droids for sale of course. Let's not forget the constant influx of new players, and existing players trying new professions. This is always going on.
Message Edited by Sylow on 02-18-2005 01:29 PM
YodaMac wrote:
4. Make droid components decay and be "upgrade-able" by DE’s. (DE’s already mass produce components anyways for their own crafting, so this doesn’t negatively affect DE gameplay or prices…) Take the best element of the Shipwright profession and add it to the DE profession. There are all sorts of rules that could be settled upon... modules can only be upgraded with similar module types... only DE’s possess the skills to make the modifications through a droid’s radial menu (no datapad loss there)... droid components would decay with use, but can be repaired or replaced by a DE so the owner can keep their favorite friend …
1. Only shipwrights can build ships chassis and parts. However unlike ships players cannot loot droid modules. So there is a bonus there.
2. Players must buy and ungrade new parts as they advance through their profession, including new flight computers and astromechs. If we implemented this on all other types of modules we would see a more fully upgradeable element to our profession not to mention constant and consistant repeat business for all our different modules, so we arent making the same types while others are being neglected.
3. Ship chassis and parts decay if destroyed. Most droids dont get blown up unless the owner is tefd or overt or if its a combat droid. Make combat modules replacable after the droid has been incapped/destroyed a certain number of times. Hence people dont have to buy new droids just new parts.
4. Players can get newer better types of ships when progressing. I think this is different from number 2 for one reason. It could add new chassis and more advanced chassis of droids for those more advanced players that would be able to use them. So for example a combat droid for a master TK/Swordsman/What have you, would be a droidika or super battle droid. While a novice marksman might have to use a low end probot.
We can think of alternatives to the full on destuction of our profession people lets just think about it and not take the easy road.
YodaMac wrote:
AudioOrgana wrote:
I don't have time for a full reply at the moment, but here's my take on the options suggested :
1. Any type of food/vehicle system isn't helping us with repeat sales. Best we could hope for it is yet another tool to sell. This does not increase the amount of droids sold.
While this doesn't increase Droid Sales, it does provide both a "maintenance" aspect to droids (for those who feel droids should decay in some way) and allows for a possible improvement to the DE profession, either by way of a special Radial Menu Skill that only DE's can access for the "repair" preferably, or at least as another consumable kit.
Yet another consumable kit is not decay. It's another disposable kit to run off crates of. This is not what anyone is looking for - players or DE's.
2. Increased functionality without decay will only lead to the same glut we had before. We get a boon in business for awhile, but it dies down again and we are back to square one. We need a permanent solution, not a temporary one.
I disagree that the benefits of themany, many, MANY new droid functions that have been added to the game since it began are in any way "temporary". Sales will always fluctuate (thats a market thang), but the on-going addition of new functions to our droids will permanently increase sales over the life of SWG. I have sold more droids since those patches than ever before, and continue to sell droids with those very same new functions to new players and old alike. New profession-centric functions always mean more sales - during the boons and busts - over the long-haul.
/sigh
You miss the entire point, my friend. I am one of the most successful DE's around - very few people can say they've made over nine figures just selling droids. To begin with, we can't simply put our future off on the hope of "on-going additions". We can't expect them to constantly come up with new droids for us to sell. Occasionally, yes, but just like other crafting professions the time they get to spend on adding new content is few and far between; as DE's, we've seen the most attention of ANY crafting profession in the game so far.
This is the problem with the entire argument - we've heard it before. "If" we get new stuff, not "when", and when that time does come, we can't expect them to come all the time. This is just a fact of MMO development.
Decay is the best of both worlds. We get MUCH more mileage out of Dev time. It's just common sense - when new stuff comes, it won't just be a boon and then a lull, it will susutain itself ON TOP OF those new additions, and doesn't put us at the mercy of getting on the very, very tight development schedule constantly just so we can keep in business.
DE's like you and I that get tons of sales really are pretty rare. This is about a market that could expand for all DE's, and help the profession grow.
3. Combat decay isn't enough - we need decay on those crafting and medical droids (some of which have been around since June 2003).
Combat decay makes sense and fits in with the existing armor/weapon decay system just fine. As I suggested above, Crafting and medical droids would have to be "maintained" just like speeders and the like if their owners want to keep them fully functioning. There is, however, no reason whatsoever for their droids to "poof" on them as long as they take care of them. I am proud to still have my very first Mouse Droid - "proto" still hanging around. That is what makes DE special and different from all the other disposable crafting professions. And for some of us, that is what makes it worthwhile to even be a DE.
Combat decay is great - but not enough.
Let's talk about "proto". Further in your reply, you say you never made a roleplay argument, yet that really is the basis for all you say.
What is the difference between "proto" and a new mouse droid you create today, made with the same modules, chasis, and color, and renamed "proto"?
A role-playing attachment you have made to an identical item in your datapad. You simply cannot tell them apart. That's what makes it role-play - there is no game mechanic, it's an attachment you have projected upon it.
That said, as I have proposed before, we can make this as painless as possible. Have a radial option or a kit (although, again, adding yet another kit to the game isn't going to be popular with anyone) that allows conversion from one droid to a new one. Name it the same, color it the same, and the new droid deed just disapears from your inventory and is "absorbed" into the old droid. We could call it a "renewal" or "retrofit" or whatever. As TK said, it doesn't matter.
4. Droids are not complex enough for a shipwright system. The reason the shipwright system works the way it does is because each and every stat on each and every component has some bearing on the operation of the ship. This is not the case with droids - only modules have any effect on the droid. Further, this turns DE's into parts monkeys and many of us want to sell droids, not droid parts.
I'm not sure about your "complex" argument here. All I am suggesting is giving DE's the ability to craft droids, and then later, through a radial menu of sorts, be able to replace or repair "decayed" modules. (similar to how starship components can be taken out and replaced with new ones) This gives DE's their "repeat business". Doesn't negatively affect a DE's playstyle (as we mostly mass-produce modules anyways). And gives both DE's and players even MORE choices with their droids. Win. Win. Win. DE's will still be crafting droids for sale of course. Let's not forget the constant influx of new players, and existing players trying new professions. This is always going on.
Modularity has been discussed before, and most DE's have deemed it a bad idea. I'm not going to rehash that discussion - but the ramifications on our profession are for sure not "win win win". It's asking for a system that totally kills our repeat business and turns us into slot monkeys - and you want that PLUS no decay? Yikes...that's a scary, scary thought.
I don't think you'll find most DE's want to be parts suppliers. We want to make droids, not parts. That's part of what this is all about.
I don't see this great loss here if droids decay. /shrug.
I'm not sure what yourplay-style is like, but I can clearly see how mandatory droid decaywould beforcing all DE's into a position whereplayers would only want to buy crates and cratesof identical droids (boringfor the DE) or keep coming back every month to buy the exact same crafted droid again and again (monotonous in the extreme) and those same players would understandably expect to pay much, much lower prices for these now consumable items, and in effect ruin whatis otherwise the most fun crafting profession in SWG. And that doesn't even touch on what it would mean to non-DE players.
I disagree that it has to be that severe. This new "anti-decay" pocket of DE's seem to make it out that we want droids to last three days, not three months. If someone doesn't have to replace one for three months, then they aren't going to demand tons of crates of them. We aren't asking for droids to last a few days - just not FOREVER.
The only difference between a medical droid in your datapad and one in a deed is sixty seconds to the end user - however long it takes to tame the droid and rename it.This sixty seconds of suspension of disbelief on the part of the end user is worth DE becoming a full, self-renewing profession.
DE should become a "self-renewing profession"... you mean like the other SWG crafting professions?.... you know, the ones we don't even want to play because of their mind-numbing "mass crate grinds" and lack of permanence? Droids ARE special. Players see that. Fellow DE's see that. The DEVs even saw that (remember those 2.5 patches we got). A player can't name his food buff. A player can't personally program his blaster. A player can't customize the color of his armor (well, some armor). Don't let it be DE's who lower the importance of droids to that of a crate of food buffs.
"Self-renewing" simply refers to us being able to maintain our own market instead of having to wish and hope and pray for the Devs to give us something new to sell because everything we make reaches market saturation putting us in the same position we were to begin with. You can wax romantic on droids all you want, and many of us share some of the sentiment, but the foundation of our profession has had this burden since we began. You can build as many stories on top of the foundation as you want (in the form of new additions to the profession) but that still won't take care of the root of the problem. We've had some amazing additions as DE's - yet we haven't been able to take full advantage of them because we do not have decay.
I understand some people are caught up in the romance of it all, but in the end - a droid is a droid except for it's configuration and name. This is a role playing game - I guess people who can't get past that sixty-second change-over will simply have to find a way to justify it RPG-wise.
DE's need decay if we are going to thrive. Not a new tool, or to become parts monkeys. Romantic notions do not lead to sound gameplay mechanics.
AO
Not once have I mentioned anything about Role-playing, but it shouldn't be completely dismissed since as you say, this is a role-playing game.I personally dont role-play, but I do play my profession - as in I play SWG for Droid Engineering. And my love of my creations comes from playing the game and enjoying making a lasting impression on both the players I help, and the virtual galaxy we "live" in. I do this every time I logon to play. I sell droids nowas well... every time I logon. Thriving just fine here, thanx.... for lets see.... June of 2003....well the math escapes me, but it all adds up to gameplay mechanics that are working, andcontinue to improve with every added droid function.
Again, right there with you. Even on my slowest weeks these days I make several million in profit on droids. But it's not about us who have been here since June of 2003 - there are VERY few of us left because the DE market is so skewed right now. You are either like us, well-known DE's - one of a half-dozen or so on your server that run the marketplace and sell so much the lack of decay doesn't hurt our pocketbooks -or you come into the profession, have some fun, and realize that it's pretty much a dead-end unless you are among the old timers. There is little way to make a name for yourself as a DE because the market is stagnant, depending on the occasional blessings of a new product before we go back to square one because there is little competition for quality and none of our products ever need replacement.
Your priorities are just different than mine. The romantic niche DE has occupied keeps it from reaching nearly as many players as it could. The simple fact is, there is a finite need for droids, and that need is met by a few truly active DE's per server. The scattered rest are hobbyists and guild alts. Very few people have the luxury of making it big as a DE, and making our product demand increase ten-fold, as decay would (think of every single droid you have ever sold and imagine if even 1/2 of them got replaced regularly), would not devalue us but give us the best of both worlds : more DE's making tons more droids.
Or we could just go as we are, and settle for being one of the least popular professions because we refuse to let go of romantic notions and psudo-roleplay concerns.
I know where I stand on the subject.
AO