CUEmu - Thread Posts

Gooney

Tue May 04, 2004 2:53 am

Greetings all, I just thought maybe we could get a consensus of what the doctor community thinks about buffs. And by doing so have our correspondant deliver our wishes to the Devs.

Please do not inclued discussions about armor in this as Im sure we are all aware of that issue and quite honestly it is a seperate discussion.

What do you doctors think about the state of buffing in the game?

I'll give you my thoughts on this.

Up until 2 days ago I was a Master Doc and thrilled at the power that my buffs gave people, myself included. I was routinely able to buff all stats for over 2400+ for 3+ hours. With these buffs I could easily solo 20k missions as a pistoleer with no down time, never even utilizing my beautiful 900 effect stim Ds. I hand crafted all of my meds, excepting components.

I usually charged 8-10k depending on the planet, often only 6k on Tatooine for noobs. I bought all of the resources

I needed paying 60cpu at most... not an issue at all just background info.

After being a doc for a while and gaining a comfortable bank account I dropped it, not because I didnt enjoy it, not because of unruly customers, simply because I wanted to do something else. This was 2 days ago.

THE STATE OF BUFFS

My experiances in this game as a player who actually never received a buff until I could actually buff myself have given me a perspective that I doubt is unique. (I had played for several months before receiving my first doc buff). But since that time I have become a buff junkie. Using my pitiful marksman skills to lay waste to entire legions of Giant Mountain Worts and the like.

Doc Buffs are too powerful. A 2000+ primary/secondary can easily keep up with the damage of any monster your skill level. Grab a mission ungrouped with your best weapon then do the mission fully buffed and youll see what I mean.

Master Doc Buffs are out of all proportion too powerful, they tower over the best food/drink/spice buffs by a significant margin. In fact, if it wasnt for the difficulty/pain that it takes to get entertainer buffs even vasarian brandy would slow down in sales.

Ifeel that the gross exaggeration of your stats that buffs grant goes a long way to making the game boring for a great deal of people.

I also understand that people in general (myself included) will almost always take the easiest path. So one could decide to simply go unbuffed but that isnt likely to happen as an easier way exists (the dark side beckons...hehe).

The only solution that I can think of that would still support the doctor economy and provide a very favorable product while at the same time reintroduces a measure of challange to the game would be this.

The makers of SWG must reduce the power of doc buffs in my opinion, just to make the game more challenging. Other games do this by limiting buffs to the level of the reciepient. So a level 1 warrior will get a proportionally weaker buff in relation to a level 50 warrior receiving the same buff. This is very difficult to do in a Skill Based game such as SWG, so the only other option is to simply limit the power of the buffs themselves.

Have doc buffs effect directly tied to a point for point value based on the power on a pack. So a 890 pack would buff for 890 + a modifer for droid/clothing/biv, but make the valus not be multipliers but rather just add them together. The higest buffs wouldnt be over 1000. While still very powerful they will be significantly less than previously. This would also create more of a market for the buffs of Enhance B's and C's as even 500+ buff is pretty good.

Anyhow this is how I feel on the subject. Part of me wants to just be done with buffs altogether but by chosing that path I stretch out the time of my skilling up proportionally (compared to my peers).

The players shouldnt have to make this choice, it should be decided by the game mechanics.

It seems so long ago...playing with out doctor buffs, relying instead on the food and drink buffs I could find. It was definatly a much richer experiance, if somewhat slow. Looking back I think I enjoyed hunting more there was much more risk.

I also remembered the feeling of raw power that I experianced the first time I had full doc buffs of 1400 or better. I was unbeatable by the monsters I was fighting and the credits rolled in and the skill boxes filled. Twas, a giddy time if as I reflect on it now, somewhat hollow and lonely. Fully buffed and skilling up you would be a fool to group with anyone, as your xp intake drops by roughly half (simply cause your buffed mate is killing half the critters).

Current Doc buffs are a broken game mechanic.

What do other docs (and former docs) think?

-Gooney

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Eurynome

Tue May 04, 2004 4:13 am

#2

Before applying the nerf bat or getting into a discussion about buffs being overpowered, I'd like to see the combat revamp in place. If there are drastic changes to combat, it will certainly affect the power of the buffs and what buffs enable people to do. Such a revamp is in the works after all, they say. What I'm worried about if buffs are nerfed is that this will decrease the income doctors are able to earn with the profession.

~ Kaor Nightbreeze ~
Let not your anger blind you. Rather, let it consume you.
And in the purity of your hatred, you will find the deaths of your enemies.

Gooney

Tue May 04, 2004 4:37 am

#3

Even the combat revamp cant change the weighted advantage that Doc buffs give versus an unbuffed player.

3k HAM > 800 HAM.

So regardless as to what the combat revamp does Buffing has to be addressed.

What I am interested in is what other Docs think should be done. I ask because there is no way to objectivly look at the current buffing system and draw the conclusion that it is good for the game.

-Gooney

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DarthXanthic

Tue May 04, 2004 5:28 am

#4

How much of these mobs were you owning buffed, but without armor on?

DarthXanthic

Tue May 04, 2004 5:30 am

#5

Also, if they nerf buffs in anyway similiar to what you post, I'll quit.

It'd be pointless to be a doctor, and I didn't spend 20 hours a day for 3 months perfecting the profession for nothing.

Nema0879

Tue May 04, 2004 5:56 am

#6

DarthXanthic wrote:

Also, if they nerf buffs in anyway similiar to what you post, I'll quit.

It'd be pointless to be a doctor, and I didn't spend 20 hours a day for 3 months perfecting the profession for nothing.

/agree

I wouldn't quit the game, just the profession ... would be a waste of my time ...

~~~The only place success comes before work is in the dictionary~~~
~~~~Chibi's Meds and Powerups at : -3997 3708, Theed, Naboo~~
"All southerners, are insane and most especially is the Southern woman insane. The Cult of Southern womanhood endowed her with at least 5 totally different images and asked her to be good enough to adopt all of them. She is required to be frigid, passionate, sweet, bitchy, and scatterbrained -- all at the same time. Her problems spring from the fact that she succeeds."

DarthXanthic

Tue May 04, 2004 5:58 am

#7

Yeah I meant the prof, not the game

bioshock

Tue May 04, 2004 6:02 am

#8

Gooney wrote:

If you nerf the power of buffs, one major effect of that will be that more higher-end content will -require- groups.

Now, while on paper that might sound like the kind of goal these social-happy devs would want - the fact is that one effect of that will be an increase in ninja-looting exactly as there is with krayt dragons now.

Well thanks but no thanks. Under the circumstances I prefer to solo whatever I can and avoid groups. I really hate to put in a lot of time and effort...and spend a lot of credits...to kill something, then have someone else happen to be quicker on the loot button than me.

With xp caps, you dont get any serious xp for spending half an hour beating on a Nightsister Elder - you get whatever your cap is. Nothing in the game drops enough cash to make a group of 20 happy with their share of the credits (IF there are any). The only reason FOR this high-end content is the loot, and only ONE member of any group gets it.

Sure in an ideal world people share. In this world that's a rarity.

So...if you decrease the power of buffs, you increase the dependance on groups, which not only increases the competition (and greed) but also decreases the rewards.

Bad idea.

Of course you get these same poorly thought out side effects if you significantly increase the ham of the content, which is why the krayt graveyard on every server is completely overrun by thieves and griefers.

(And don't forget that SOE's own poll showed that something like 76% of all players -prefer- to solo.)

Gooney

Tue May 04, 2004 6:51 am

#9

Bioshock,

Ok this is what I was aiming at. And you have uncovered the #1 reason to reduce buffs (in my opinion). And that is to encourage grouping rather than grinding.

However you are dead on. I happen to agree with asome of what you say. Ninja looting issues aside, (how could that actually be a problem in a group...more than once anyway?) Why would you group with loot whores anyway?

But shouldnt the hard planets indeed be hard? Shouldnt the Epic encounters require a group? Shouldnt there be a sense of companionship, and sense of accomplishment after beating tough monsters.

Is it in fact, the majorities view that Dathomir, the dark planet, the home of the dreaded Imperial Prison, Home of the Mighty Rancor and force-weilding night sisters be simply another place to grind xp?

Am I right in beleiving that the majority of players think that the hardest planet in the known universe should be "farmed" by soloists just like the newbie planets?

That all of the dungeons, caves, encounters should be able to be soloed by a single buffed elite combat type?

I am not opposed to buffs, I want them in the game, I just believe that the over exaggerated power of the current buffing system imbalances things to the extreme.

-Gooney

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DarthXanthic

Tue May 04, 2004 7:00 am

#10

Its the armor, not the buffs.

That, and a totally out of wack combat system with unmatched profs and crap for ai.

Gooney

Tue May 04, 2004 7:47 am

#11

DarthXanthic wrote:

Its the armor, not the buffs.

That, and a totally out of wack combat system with unmatched profs and crap for ai.

Ok I'll bite.

What is it about the armor?

Please don't say that its all because of 80% composite, cause I dont even and never have had a set of 80% composite (would like a set though hehe). Right now Im running around in Ubese, course its sliced and about 60-65% kinetic. Buffed my high secondary stats can easily keep up with any damage that gets through allowing me to take on Monsters that IMO should be out of my reach.

Up until recently I was a Master Pistoleer and Master Doc, Im now a novice BH 0110 and Ranger 0000. I had no problem last night taking out CL 45 Gronda Patriarchs.

The whole reason I brought this up in the first placeis that Im seeing daily friendsthat are leaving the game. And I understand perfectly why. They dont want to do new professions, they like thier eliteprof now but as it stands there isnt much for them to do thats any fun. Geno Caves held thier attention for a couple nights...but your running at a net loss in there...buffs+travel+no decent loot. If everyone is already elite theres nothing to do. Just more missions to earn yet more credits. No one hunts unbuffed...they would be mad to do that...cause youll die and die quick. On the other had buffed you can run through rancor missions in a couple minutes. For them the game is dull.

Me, I like to craft and explore, I quit the holo grind after my first holo and have done 9 proffs because I want to. I think its fun to try these new things. If you dont like to always try new stuff youll get incredibly bored after a month or so of attaining you elite profession. I have no intention of leaving, too many proffs I havent tried out yet.

Having said all that, my freinds are bored simply because there is no challenge. The hardest planets pose no more real threat buffed, than Tatooine doesunbuffed.

So all things considered I have to say that the buffs are responsible for this not the armour.

To prove the point just go to Dantooine. Grab any mission unbuffed do the mission.. use your armour and neato weapons, document the result. Now grab a similar mission fully buffed and armoured and document the result.

Please tell me how it went. Do you still think that Armour is really the problem and not the buffs?

-Gooney

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Ariven

Tue May 04, 2004 7:59 am

#12

Gooney wrote:

DarthXanthic wrote:
Its the armor, not the buffs.
That, and a totally out of wack combat system with unmatched profs and crap for ai.

Ok I'll bite.
What is it about the armor?
Please don't say that its all because of 80% composite, cause I dont even and never have had a set of 80% composite (would like a set though hehe). Right now Im running around in Ubese, course its sliced and about 60-65% kinetic. Buffed my high secondary stats can easily keep up with any damage that gets through allowing me to take on Monsters that IMO should be out of my reach.
Up until recently I was a Master Pistoleer and Master Doc, Im now a novice BH 0110 and Ranger 0000. I had no problem last night taking out CL 45 Gronda Patriarchs.
The whole reason I brought this up in the first placeis that Im seeing daily friendsthat are leaving the game. And I understand perfectly why. They dont want to do new professions, they like thier eliteprof now but as it stands there isnt much for them to do thats any fun. Geno Caves held thier attention for a couple nights...but your running at a net loss in there...buffs+travel+no decent loot. If everyone is already elite theres nothing to do. Just more missions to earn yet more credits. No one hunts unbuffed...they would be mad to do that...cause youll die and die quick. On the other had buffed you can run through rancor missions in a couple minutes. For them the game is dull.
Me, I like to craft and explore, I quit the holo grind after my first holo and have done 9 proffs because I want to. I think its fun to try these new things. If you dont like to always try new stuff youll get incredibly bored after a month or so of attaining you elite profession. I have no intention of leaving, too many proffs I havent tried out yet.
Having said all that, my freinds are bored simply because there is no challenge. The hardest planets pose no more real threat buffed, than Tatooine doesunbuffed.
So all things considered I have to say that the buffs are responsible for this not the armour.
To prove the point just go to Dantooine. Grab any mission unbuffed do the mission.. use your armour and neato weapons, document the result. Now grab a similar mission fully buffed and armoured and document the result.
Please tell me how it went. Do you still think that Armour is really the problem and not the buffs?
-Gooney

If buffs are making it boring for you, dont get them. I know a few old timers that will worship you for that choice...

also, its the armor, like Urxii says... just AP1 gives you a 50% reduction in damage, your 60% kinetic then takes another 60% chunk.. so a 200 point damage hit gets reduced to 100 points, then to 40 points.. I can take THAT unbuffed...especially with some dabbled defenses or damage mitigation..

Take the armor off and see how fast your HAM drops against those level 45 gronda patriarchs...

As for doing without buffs but with armor... my composite can't go on without a LOT of buffs and mind boosts.. ubsese yes, but I have more to do with my time than hunt purely melee/kinetic MOBs.. so I dont use Ubese any more.

And, I can say that if you DO go without buffs and armor for a while you WILL be a better combatant... you learn how to use your specials and how to use tactics and the tools at your hand.. I -can- take on red con MOBs unbuffed and unarmored, with the right tactics and tools at hand. I know a bothan ranger/pistoleer who has no problem wandering dathomir unbuffed because he KNOWS how to fight, and doesn't need buffs for everything..

Buffs dont need to be nerfed, the AI needs to be improved on MOBs and the combat rebalance needs to happen (for more than one reason)..

Songe

Tue May 04, 2004 8:08 am

#13

I agree with DarthXanthic and the above poster... I've seena friendtank Acklay unbuffed, before they fixed the armor hole,with80% kinetic armor. He just needed a bit more heals than when buffed. To give you an idea, you need to heal someone twice as much if the resist goes down to 70%, I've tested it, and it shows how much impact armor has. So to sum up... the only thing that happens when you don't have buffs, is that you need more heals. Tanking abilities don't change, it's all about combat balance and armor.

Message Edited by Songe on 05-04-2004 11:09 AM

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Doctor Archive

Thread: An Honest and Open discussion of Buffing. (LONG)