Doctor Archive
Thread: a good read. on crafting for the cu.
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toothlessviper
Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:22 pm
#1
1StarNinja wrote:
With prices going up only the rich will be able to afford to buy armor or weapons or food after a while as people start depleting their cash from purchasing those because of the mission payout decrease.
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The most fundamental rule of business, especially in SWG, is that if you cannot sell something for as much as it costs you to make, then it is not worth making. This rule will hold true post-CURB as well as it does before.
I have great fears for what SWG 2 will do to the noncombat aspects of the game (particularly crafting, entertaining, and the player economy in general), but not for the reasons so far outlined here. Yes, being a Master Crafter yet also being a level 1 character and thus onehit incapped by anything in the wild will be a pain. But ultimately, that can be worked around. It is possible to get around it, generally simply by grouping with a high level character and thus gaining the level benefits. My fear is that it won't be worth working around.
Let me try to explain. I have been a crafter for all my time in this game, to varying levels of intensity. When I do serious crafting, I'm usually working for hours on end. Run this test, run that test, try different combinations to get the best out of the item I'm making. There's a lot of experimentation involved, and I don't mean fill in the bar and hit experiment experimentation. Then there is resource management, factory time on the experiments, and then factory time on the subcomponents, experimentation on product, factory time on products, vendor stocking, special orders, etc. That's just making product - that does not include all the time spent gathering the very best resources. This is, in short, a lot of work. Probably a lot more work than anyone who has not been a very serious crafter realises. But I have never minded doing this work - not only has the crafting system been interesting and challenging, but it has also been very lucrative. It's been well worth the time to crank out those few extra %, get those very special results nobody else gets, both in term of play satisfaction and creds received. And people were prepared to pay the prices for exceptional crafted goods, because they made a tremendous difference in what they could do. They could see new areas, kill new things, win more PvP fights, etc. The work I put into my craft made a very real difference in someone else's game, and the satisfaction their praise gave me, as well as the creds they paid me, made a very real difference in mine. That, ladies and gentlemen, is my MMO. That's my 'grouping', right there. That's been some of my most enjoyable interactions in SWG, right there.
If I could continue to make this same difference in the game with my craft, I would endure hundreds more incaps at the hands of Maulers. I am already incapped a few times a crafting session by spineflaps and Maulers around my factories/house when I put in a heavy crafting session - I would be happy to have to take a few extra precautions. But nothing I see in SWG 2 shows me that it will be worth those incaps to craft.
The above quote suggests that people will start to run out of money as prices go up. I doubt that will be the case. The inherent difficulties in crafting (surviving as a lower level character with aggressive mobs, not to mention the increased and more difficult resource requirements, including such things as Dathomir Fiberplast, Endorian Mollusk, etc.) will probably mean that crafters raise their price to the point where they feel it is worth their while to make, hence my statement at the start of this post. In the case of many of the high end crafts, that price will probably be rather high. Again, however, people would pay it if it was worth it - the SWG economy has shown that people will pay almost anything if the goods are exceptional enough. My fear is that the system in SWG 2 won't make any goods exceptional enough.
This is because of the level system. Essentially, no amount of equipment, weapons, armour, or food makes any significant difference in your capabilities - a level 5 character is in the same boat as a level 50 character. For both of these characters, a creature 5 levels lower than them is trivial, and a creature 5 levels above is instant death, regardless of your equipment or anything. This is the inherent principle of a level-based game - level is all. PvP is the same - the best armour on the server, the best weapons, the best everything, will make not one jot of difference in your PvP capability. You will still be unable to hurt a naked opponent with a CDEF weapon, if he is 10 levels above you or so. I suspect that it won't take long for people to realise this - they'll realise that all their equipment is meaningless as long as they match levels correctly in what they can take on. They'll realise that the most important thing they can do is not loot/buy themselves a bigger weapon, or a better helmet - the most important thing they can do is to increase their level, either by skill choice or by grouping. I'll reiterate - the single biggest factor, and by far the most important factor, in determining damage done and damage taken is not your weapon or your armour. It isn't even your skills. It is your level compared to your opponent. Even if you have a much bigger weapon, you will not do any significant damage to something with an edge in levels. That's it. If this weren't the case, why then would people suggest having a naked, level 1 crafter grouping with high levels to survive? Because that is the solution that the devs and others have suggested. That's the proof, right there - the crafter does not need any equipment to survive hits. He only needs to be grouped with someone to increase his effective level. Armour, food, etc. - all meaningless.
It doesn't take much imagination to extrapolate that. If a level 1 can survive hits stark naked, simply by grouping, why should anyone need expensive armour/weapons/buffs/food to do anything? Why not just group, or find a way to increase my level? This, then, is the 'balance' to the professions that we are getting - professions aren't being balanced, they are being rendered obsolete, because it doesn't matter if you are Swordsman or Rifleman, all that matters is level. This might see some increase in variety of templates briefly, but not all skill boxes are equal - soon enough people will find the combination that gives the highest level, and then everyone will be that. This then is also the 'balance' to equipment - equipment is also being rendered obsolete, because it doesn't increase your level. For those that said we already had a level system, we didn't - we had a rough 'level' for comparison, but it had no game effect. In SWG 2, level is the biggest game effect, just like it is in other MMOs.
SWG is more than just combat. It is centred around combat, but it also is an immersive world, with real estate, an economy, and a thriving non-combat lifestyle. But because it is combat-centric, these thriving aspects exist mostly to support combat - we've all played with that for 2 years. What is happening in SWG 2 is that the non-combat aspects, particularly player crafted equipment, are being marginalised to have almost no effect on combat, certainly not enough effect for people to go to the trouble and time involved. This is being done because it is the equipment that made us powerful in the first place - the 90% armour, the buffs, and so on. SWG's own freeform, creative game design allowed us to do these things. But rather than tweak or balance what we can make, the design choice has been to limit that freeform creativity, and to make it almost meaningless in the face of a linear, easily controlled statistic - a character's level. And that is why crafting has some very dark times ahead - because they won't make any real difference any more.
This level system might be more easily controlled, but it won't be any less buggy or open to exploits than SWG is now. It won't need any less balancing. It will require even more dev-created content than what we have now. And it will do immense harm to so many aspects of this player-created world that has evolved for two years in the absence of levels. To try and patch on a level-based system to a freeform world, especially now, is wrong on so many levels.
With prices going up only the rich will be able to afford to buy armor or weapons or food after a while as people start depleting their cash from purchasing those because of the mission payout decrease.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The most fundamental rule of business, especially in SWG, is that if you cannot sell something for as much as it costs you to make, then it is not worth making. This rule will hold true post-CURB as well as it does before.
I have great fears for what SWG 2 will do to the noncombat aspects of the game (particularly crafting, entertaining, and the player economy in general), but not for the reasons so far outlined here. Yes, being a Master Crafter yet also being a level 1 character and thus onehit incapped by anything in the wild will be a pain. But ultimately, that can be worked around. It is possible to get around it, generally simply by grouping with a high level character and thus gaining the level benefits. My fear is that it won't be worth working around.
Let me try to explain. I have been a crafter for all my time in this game, to varying levels of intensity. When I do serious crafting, I'm usually working for hours on end. Run this test, run that test, try different combinations to get the best out of the item I'm making. There's a lot of experimentation involved, and I don't mean fill in the bar and hit experiment experimentation. Then there is resource management, factory time on the experiments, and then factory time on the subcomponents, experimentation on product, factory time on products, vendor stocking, special orders, etc. That's just making product - that does not include all the time spent gathering the very best resources. This is, in short, a lot of work. Probably a lot more work than anyone who has not been a very serious crafter realises. But I have never minded doing this work - not only has the crafting system been interesting and challenging, but it has also been very lucrative. It's been well worth the time to crank out those few extra %, get those very special results nobody else gets, both in term of play satisfaction and creds received. And people were prepared to pay the prices for exceptional crafted goods, because they made a tremendous difference in what they could do. They could see new areas, kill new things, win more PvP fights, etc. The work I put into my craft made a very real difference in someone else's game, and the satisfaction their praise gave me, as well as the creds they paid me, made a very real difference in mine. That, ladies and gentlemen, is my MMO. That's my 'grouping', right there. That's been some of my most enjoyable interactions in SWG, right there.
If I could continue to make this same difference in the game with my craft, I would endure hundreds more incaps at the hands of Maulers. I am already incapped a few times a crafting session by spineflaps and Maulers around my factories/house when I put in a heavy crafting session - I would be happy to have to take a few extra precautions. But nothing I see in SWG 2 shows me that it will be worth those incaps to craft.
The above quote suggests that people will start to run out of money as prices go up. I doubt that will be the case. The inherent difficulties in crafting (surviving as a lower level character with aggressive mobs, not to mention the increased and more difficult resource requirements, including such things as Dathomir Fiberplast, Endorian Mollusk, etc.) will probably mean that crafters raise their price to the point where they feel it is worth their while to make, hence my statement at the start of this post. In the case of many of the high end crafts, that price will probably be rather high. Again, however, people would pay it if it was worth it - the SWG economy has shown that people will pay almost anything if the goods are exceptional enough. My fear is that the system in SWG 2 won't make any goods exceptional enough.
This is because of the level system. Essentially, no amount of equipment, weapons, armour, or food makes any significant difference in your capabilities - a level 5 character is in the same boat as a level 50 character. For both of these characters, a creature 5 levels lower than them is trivial, and a creature 5 levels above is instant death, regardless of your equipment or anything. This is the inherent principle of a level-based game - level is all. PvP is the same - the best armour on the server, the best weapons, the best everything, will make not one jot of difference in your PvP capability. You will still be unable to hurt a naked opponent with a CDEF weapon, if he is 10 levels above you or so. I suspect that it won't take long for people to realise this - they'll realise that all their equipment is meaningless as long as they match levels correctly in what they can take on. They'll realise that the most important thing they can do is not loot/buy themselves a bigger weapon, or a better helmet - the most important thing they can do is to increase their level, either by skill choice or by grouping. I'll reiterate - the single biggest factor, and by far the most important factor, in determining damage done and damage taken is not your weapon or your armour. It isn't even your skills. It is your level compared to your opponent. Even if you have a much bigger weapon, you will not do any significant damage to something with an edge in levels. That's it. If this weren't the case, why then would people suggest having a naked, level 1 crafter grouping with high levels to survive? Because that is the solution that the devs and others have suggested. That's the proof, right there - the crafter does not need any equipment to survive hits. He only needs to be grouped with someone to increase his effective level. Armour, food, etc. - all meaningless.
It doesn't take much imagination to extrapolate that. If a level 1 can survive hits stark naked, simply by grouping, why should anyone need expensive armour/weapons/buffs/food to do anything? Why not just group, or find a way to increase my level? This, then, is the 'balance' to the professions that we are getting - professions aren't being balanced, they are being rendered obsolete, because it doesn't matter if you are Swordsman or Rifleman, all that matters is level. This might see some increase in variety of templates briefly, but not all skill boxes are equal - soon enough people will find the combination that gives the highest level, and then everyone will be that. This then is also the 'balance' to equipment - equipment is also being rendered obsolete, because it doesn't increase your level. For those that said we already had a level system, we didn't - we had a rough 'level' for comparison, but it had no game effect. In SWG 2, level is the biggest game effect, just like it is in other MMOs.
SWG is more than just combat. It is centred around combat, but it also is an immersive world, with real estate, an economy, and a thriving non-combat lifestyle. But because it is combat-centric, these thriving aspects exist mostly to support combat - we've all played with that for 2 years. What is happening in SWG 2 is that the non-combat aspects, particularly player crafted equipment, are being marginalised to have almost no effect on combat, certainly not enough effect for people to go to the trouble and time involved. This is being done because it is the equipment that made us powerful in the first place - the 90% armour, the buffs, and so on. SWG's own freeform, creative game design allowed us to do these things. But rather than tweak or balance what we can make, the design choice has been to limit that freeform creativity, and to make it almost meaningless in the face of a linear, easily controlled statistic - a character's level. And that is why crafting has some very dark times ahead - because they won't make any real difference any more.
This level system might be more easily controlled, but it won't be any less buggy or open to exploits than SWG is now. It won't need any less balancing. It will require even more dev-created content than what we have now. And it will do immense harm to so many aspects of this player-created world that has evolved for two years in the absence of levels. To try and patch on a level-based system to a freeform world, especially now, is wrong on so many levels.
toothlessviper
Sat Apr 16, 2005 10:29 pm
#2
the part about the level system is so true. dont matter what you have as long as your level is a match you can win the fight with a stick.. if i fight something around 5 levels over mine. i die ...
so to me the crafting will die with this new level system. This post i found says it perfectly.
anyway.. something to think about. tooth.
Kyreal
Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:07 am
#3
/agree
sums it up nicely it does, just remember by reposting this that you are at risk for being banned, this post was deleted already by the devs
zelp
Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:13 am
#4
"[..] SWG's own freeform, creative game design allowed us to do these things. But rather than tweak or balance what we can make, the design choice has been to limit that freeform creativity, and to make it almost meaningless in the face of a linear, easily controlled statistic - a character's level. And that is why crafting has some very dark times ahead - because they won't make any real difference any more."
****
This is main reason i hate the CU (and is one of the reasons i dont want to play WOW). Very good post indeed.
They totally screw SWGs crafting - a point where it was better than every other MMORPG ever out there.
****
This is main reason i hate the CU (and is one of the reasons i dont want to play WOW). Very good post indeed.
They totally screw SWGs crafting - a point where it was better than every other MMORPG ever out there.
Eskie
Sun Apr 17, 2005 7:21 am
#5
FloorPizza
Sun Apr 17, 2005 10:35 am
#8
Kyreal wrote:
/agree
sums it up nicely it does, just remember by reposting this that you are at risk for being banned, this post was deleted already by the devs
Unbelieveable. SOE is always saying that constructive criticism is allowed, but flaming is not. Is this post not about the best constructive criticism yet seen regarding the CU? I failed to see ANY content in the post that could be construed as flaming in any way, shape, or form. Guess they just can't take a well worded opinion that happens to reflect the feelings of a large percentage of their customers. They would be well served by listening rather than deleting; today we're voting with our words. Tomorrow we'll be voting with our dollars.
toothlessviper
Sun Apr 17, 2005 11:01 am
#9
that one was banned ? wow.. shrug. i just seen it and thought it well written. to me it says everything i think but dont have to skill to put into print.
FloorPizza
Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:12 pm
#10
Loviza wrote:
Nicely said Tooth. I usually say Im allergic to level based systems, but I dont think I have succeded in sum in upso nicely.
What got banned? I wanna be banned too. Thats the only more thing they can do to me anyway. Come on get it over with. BAN me!!!
Actually, Tooth was resposting an original post by 1starninja that got deleted by the forum mods.
beyowulf
Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:15 pm
#11
I've been struggling with the clear long-term impacts of crafting that a level-based system will do to crafting and somewhere during reading this thread my finger came very close to the cancel button....and it's still hovering there.
It's been suggested to serious med crafters that if they like crafting and post-CU med crafting holds no allure for them, they could try something else. There's two basic problems with that.
First, if you're like me you've poured yourself for 6-12 months (in my case almost 20 months) into building a quality med crafting business. You didn't do it because someone told you to, you did it because you choose to and enjoyed the challenge. Starting over in a new trade seems like a lot of work for something that is-and we may have mildly forgotten along the way-is just a game.
Second, this isn't a med crafting nerf as Poizen has said-it's a general crafting nerf. SWG2 (the post CU SWG) is much more of a traditional MMORPG then SWG1 is. In most games crafting plays some role in making money or improving skills, but not the extent that it has in SWG.
So, the question is "to push the button or not"....which is what I'm sure many crafting docs are thinking about/doing right now. I'm most likely not leaving, but I'm not going to-or need to-maintain four toons anymore. And while my primary toon will always be a Doc, I may drop my extra merchant toon and my BE Alt and not craft meds as well. Besides, the subscriptions for those additional accounts could be used, erm, elsewhere.
QuiGonWindu
Sun Apr 17, 2005 1:21 pm
#12
Yeah, my toon is Master Doc/Master Merchant on Bria.... Logged into TC4 to find out that my Enhance-D packs have been converted to CL60 Stim-D's... too bad for me though, 'cause Master Doc only gets you to CL55! wheee!
Loviza
Sun Apr 17, 2005 3:34 pm
#13
What people who havent crafted before in SWG dont understand that we dont just spend 5 mill byuing an UBER 1337 Weapon and start whacking away and that was it. Before we even can start to reach the top stuff we have spent enormous amount of time, sweat, tears andcredits. Our stashes that we have built up to satisfy our customers (in my case I do it for free tho, my stuff is quality stuff despite that and my pride/dream) cant really be valued in credits only and if you have started to reach the top stuff in Doc medicines your stashes will easily reach 30 millat least. This is our joy in the game. When a fighter for his first time takes down an Enraged Rancor and is overjoyed, we did our first amazing succes and got goosebumps and probably more then one of us was sitting with the biggest smile behind the screen. I also heard that dancing aroundlike a lunaticand doing he "Amazing Success Dance" was popular in the begining 
Im also one of thoose docs that is actually more on the field then not. Being a non-seller gives me more time for that, besides I need the income also to support my crafting (yes, its backwards )
)Ok so heres the thing. The UBER 1337 weapon will be transfered to guess what? Yes, another UBER 1337 weapon. For us crafters however, we are facing a loss of 90% of our hard work. Now I would like to see if that 1000+ Large Vibro Axe would turn out to be a 100 damage Large Vibro Axe in the CU. I would really like to hear thoose people that think we are whiners, what they would say if that would happen to them.
(I guess I checked this post to late to see the first posting, well they can ban me anyway, cant hurt me anymore)
EDIT: Wasntsure about how many mill a doc stash would be, lowered from 50 to 30 mill. Iguess a selling Doc might better make a guess about what a "normal" stash of good-top stuff resources for crafting would be worth. I know my stash is at least in the 50 mill region.
Message Edited by Loviza on 04-18-2005 12:39 AM
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