Doctor Archive
Thread: Doctor Buffs are responsible for the lack of things to do
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Deady
Thu Jun 24, 2004 5:54 am
#1
People complain about a lack of challenge, or tough mobs with good loot in SWG.
But, actually its not surprising that this is the case, when people are heading out to battle with HAM stats that can be 3 times what they should be.
If you think about it, SWG was designed before doctor buffs were ever invented. The various creatures, NPCs, missions and dungeonswere all designed and tested with HAMs of between ~600-1200 in mind.
If you suddenly allow people to head out with stats of 3000+, you completely throw combat balance out of the window, which is what we see now.
I guess my point is, the game wasnt ready for Doctor Buffs, and still isnt. I think buffs were added without proper consideration of their effects on game, and that the game still hasnt been able to catch up with the changes they have brought.
Radar-X
Thu Jun 24, 2004 6:20 am
#2
Deady wrote:
People complain about a lack of challenge, or tough mobs with good loot in SWG.
But, actually its not surprising that this is the case, when people are heading out to battle with HAM stats that can be 3 times what they should be.
If you think about it, SWG was designed before doctor buffs were ever invented. The various creatures, NPCs, missions and dungeonswere all designed and tested with HAMs of between ~600-1200 in mind.
If you suddenly allow people to head out with stats of 3000+, you completely throw combat balance out of the window, which is what we see now.
I guess my point is, the game wasnt ready for Doctor Buffs, and still isnt. I think buffs were added without proper consideration of their effects on game, and that the game still hasnt been able to catch up with the changes they have brought.
Not trying to be mean but ummmm yeah they've been saying this for a pretty long time now. Thats why they are reexamining the HAM mechanics for the combat revamp. There are less than4 places (3 of them are dungeons) that I can think off that someone can't solo with some novice elite profession.
Roustabout
Thu Jun 24, 2004 6:25 am
#3
The DEVS never pictured people getting to near maximum efficiency so quickly. What they should have done was give people in beta (for a week maybe) 90% of maximum buffs (so 900 base packs) 70% composite, good weapons, and let them run around. Surely they must have thought at some point that the crafters would get together and be able to make the best stuff...but I guess they didn't and they greatly underestimated the power of characters. The problem isn't with doctor buffs, it's with the difficulty of the mobs. IMO make mobs deal 2x to 3x as much damage (except in DWB b/c it's ridiculous already) and leave buffs how they are. Try running Kunga missions or Geo Cave with that going on and there's no way you won't need a group.
Edit: Damn I've been here forever....Kunga=easy now... but you get the point
Message Edited by Roustabout on 06-24-2004 08:26 AM
MasterNerfSlayer
Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:03 am
#4
Roustabout wrote:
The DEVS never pictured people getting to near maximum efficiency so quickly. What they should have done was give people in beta (for a week maybe) 90% of maximum buffs (so 900 base packs) 70% composite, good weapons, and let them run around. Surely they must have thought at some point that the crafters would get together and be able to make the best stuff...but I guess they didn't and they greatly underestimated the power of characters. The problem isn't with doctor buffs, it's with the difficulty of the mobs. IMO make mobs deal 2x to 3x as much damage (except in DWB b/c it's ridiculous already) and leave buffs how they are. Try running Kunga missions or Geo Cave with that going on and there's no way you won't need a group.
Edit: Damn I've been here forever....Kunga=easy now... but you get the point
Message Edited by Roustabout on 06-24-2004 08:26 AM
People seem to forget that the entire creature database was revamped in December with the Combat Balance in mind. It's just taking them 10 months longer to implement the rest of the CBthan they wanted it to.
Deady
Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:22 am
#5
Oh ok 
Sorry i dont check these forums much
Sorry i dont check these forums much At least everyone agrees
BrJLa
Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:45 am
#6
As a doc, I blame the armor.
Although it'snot one or the other, but the relationship between the two. My helmet got to zero condition fighting night sisters the other night.(I was not solo, by the way.) It might have taken me too long to notice, but once I did I was dead before I could get to my speeder. When my Ubese Jacket gets to zero condition while hunting Herb meat on Endor, suddenly I'm using my Stim B's or Stim D's. HAM would come into play if armor weren't as effective. Or maybe it would come into play if you reduced secondary buffs substantially. But it's the balance between the two that needs to be fixed. Not just one or the other.
Although it'snot one or the other, but the relationship between the two. My helmet got to zero condition fighting night sisters the other night.(I was not solo, by the way.) It might have taken me too long to notice, but once I did I was dead before I could get to my speeder. When my Ubese Jacket gets to zero condition while hunting Herb meat on Endor, suddenly I'm using my Stim B's or Stim D's. HAM would come into play if armor weren't as effective. Or maybe it would come into play if you reduced secondary buffs substantially. But it's the balance between the two that needs to be fixed. Not just one or the other.I would like to see the balance changed, though, so that HAM did play more of a role. That way the market for Stims will go up. 
Coran_Sienar
Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:52 am
#7
It's a combination of buffs and armor, not just one or the other. Without buffs, you couldn't wear the composite armor with 1000+ encumbrance to HAM. Without armor (using just buffs), you'll still get killed in the Nightsister Caves, the Geo Caves, etc. What difference does it make if you can spam your specials if the MOBs surrounding you are doing over 1000 points of damage to you per second?
There are still some tough critters out there that can kill you while buffed and armored, but they are few and far between. One of them happens to be the Gorax on Endor. I got to master doc by resurrecting all of the slain people from my guild (over 50 rezzes) during a1 hour hunt.
dsvella
Thu Jun 24, 2004 8:26 am
#8
BrJLa wrote:
As a doc, I blame the armor.
I would like to see the balance changed, though, so that HAM did play more of a role. That way the market for Stims will go up.
dude as a master AS on chilstra i fail to see what you are getting at. are you saying to balance the game we need to be nerfed? hell comp already has some major down points as it is. with the encumbrance and all. but still i think that buffs are nessary. armour dont (and will never) stop everything. and when in the DWB for example u need all the damn help u can get. yeah there mabye a lack of things to do but thats because your average guy cant be arsed to do a crafting prof.
BrJLa
Thu Jun 24, 2004 10:41 am
#9
Well, first, I agree with you. Too many people complain about the game, and I'd prefer if they kept buffs and armor just the way they are. I like to be able to solo hunt my avian and herb meat on planets like Endor and Yavin and Dathomir, and I don't really care for it to become more of a challenge. That being said:
The first post said that "buffs are responsible for the lack of things to do", because with a buff you can do just about anything and never die.
I was pointing out that this is only the case if you have a buff AND good armor. That it's not buffs alone, but the balance between buffs and armor. Because it's very easy to die if you have a buff...Just take your armor off. It's only the two combined that make you invulnerable. So IF YOU WANT HAM TO BE A FACTOR (which maybe you don't) in PvE, then you can nerf secondary buffs, or nerf armor. But either would accomplish the same thing.
Now, I joked at the end that I'd like to see HAM be more of a factor, so I could sell more Stim B's and Stim D's. But, honestly, that's not really how I feel about the subject. I wish they'd leave it alone.
ShakariPsy
Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:00 pm
#10
Scoooter wrote:
MasterNerfSlayer wrote:
Roustabout wrote:
The DEVS never pictured people getting to near maximum efficiency so quickly. What they should have done was give people in beta (for a week maybe) 90% of maximum buffs (so 900 base packs) 70% composite, good weapons, and let them run around. Surely they must have thought at some point that the crafters would get together and be able to make the best stuff...but I guess they didn't and they greatly underestimated the power of characters. The problem isn't with doctor buffs, it's with the difficulty of the mobs. IMO make mobs deal 2x to 3x as much damage (except in DWB b/c it's ridiculous already) and leave buffs how they are. Try running Kunga missions or Geo Cave with that going on and there's no way you won't need a group.
Edit: Damn I've been here forever....Kunga=easy now... but you get the point
Message Edited by Roustabout on 06-24-2004 08:26 AM
People seem to forget that the entire creature database was revamped in December with the Combat Balance in mind. It's just taking them 10 months longer to implement the rest of the CBthan they wanted it to.
A point many forget about.
The combat/ham rebalance was supposed to be in a long time ago and they nerfed the creatures already
I too blame the armor as well and not the buffs.
I usually play unarmored and I take large amounts of damage and I am far from unstoppable woth 2600 buffs.
But when you have those kinds of buffs and 70-80% composite..forget about it.
un the combat balance is being done a prof at a time mainly so its still going on actually hehe
and as for the rest your dead right 80% kin armour + 2500 buffs = virtually unbeatable
ShakariPsy
Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:01 pm
#11
Radar-X wrote:
Deady wrote:
People complain about a lack of challenge, or tough mobs with good loot in SWG.
But, actually its not surprising that this is the case, when people are heading out to battle with HAM stats that can be 3 times what they should be.
If you think about it, SWG was designed before doctor buffs were ever invented. The various creatures, NPCs, missions and dungeonswere all designed and tested with HAMs of between ~600-1200 in mind.
If you suddenly allow people to head out with stats of 3000+, you completely throw combat balance out of the window, which is what we see now.
I guess my point is, the game wasnt ready for Doctor Buffs, and still isnt. I think buffs were added without proper consideration of their effects on game, and that the game still hasnt been able to catch up with the changes they have brought.
Not trying to be mean but ummmm yeah they've been saying this for a pretty long time now. Thats why they are reexamining the HAM mechanics for the combat revamp. There are less than4 places (3 of them are dungeons) that I can think off that someone can't solo with some novice elite profession.
hmm where is the 4 th non dungeon place your thinking of???
ShakariPsy
Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:11 pm
#12
dsvella wrote:
BrJLa wrote:
As a doc, I blame the armor.
I would like to see the balance changed, though, so that HAM did play more of a role. That way the market for Stims will go up.
dude as a master AS on chilstra i fail to see what you are getting at. are you saying to balance the game we need to be nerfed? hell comp already has some major down points as it is. with the encumbrance and all. but still i think that buffs are nessary. armour dont (and will never) stop everything. and when in the DWB for example u need all the damn help u can get. yeah there mabye a lack of things to do but thats because your average guy cant be arsed to do a crafting prof.
yes but the comp you guys are making stop far to much without the good armour buffs are no where near as effective I have tried it unintentionally when my chest, helmet and legs reached 0 condition doing a enraged rancor lair, had 3 attacking me and was not losing ANY health untill the armour failed then they nearly killed me with 2400 buffs :/
Oh and I'm no average guy and armour needs a nerfing or a good balance as well as the buffs to be honest.
Try not just to think of your pocket and cash when talking about things try and think honestly and not how a nerf will effect you as an AS
if they nerf buffs and armour it will effect me major style but they still need balancing no matter how much I would love them to stay the same personally
Armour and buffs have got far to good. I should not be able to take on 8 enraged rancors at ONCE without losing and HAM points.... or solo a krayt dragon ... or solo the geo labs (with care)
The only 2 places where I need to be grouped is the DWB and the corvette and there both pretty evil hehe
Roustabout
Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:56 pm
#13
MasterNerfSlayer wrote:
Roustabout wrote:
The DEVS never pictured people getting to near maximum efficiency so quickly. What they should have done was give people in beta (for a week maybe) 90% of maximum buffs (so 900 base packs) 70% composite, good weapons, and let them run around. Surely they must have thought at some point that the crafters would get together and be able to make the best stuff...but I guess they didn't and they greatly underestimated the power of characters. The problem isn't with doctor buffs, it's with the difficulty of the mobs. IMO make mobs deal 2x to 3x as much damage (except in DWB b/c it's ridiculous already) and leave buffs how they are. Try running Kunga missions or Geo Cave with that going on and there's no way you won't need a group.
Edit: Damn I've been here forever....Kunga=easy now... but you get the point
Message Edited by Roustabout on 06-24-2004 08:26 AM
People seem to forget that the entire creature database was revamped in December with the Combat Balance in mind. It's just taking them 10 months longer to implement the rest of the CBthan they wanted it to.
Indeed. With this track record I can't wait for the combat "rebalance"
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