Doctor Archive
Thread: CU about to start on public TC... Medical profession details here
MyT_Chicken wrote:
Obata wrote:
You're not seeing where our objections to ability based healing are coming from. It's not a role playing thing. It goes beyond that. It's not just about having an item in my inventory. It's about the healing coming from technology rather than magic. There needs to be an item that actually impacts healing ability. Making some generic item with a different name doesn't change the fact that the healing is coming out of thin air and that all master docs heal the same.A craftable item with stats that factor into the healing is a way of differentiating one healer's abilities from another's. Under the new system, the only differentiation will be the enhancers. I equate the enhancers to weapon powerups. If all weapons had the same stats and only powerups were varied, would there really beenough difference to matter? A craftable item is also the link between healing and the player economy. The economy is one of my favorite unique features in SWG. The CU will basically limit it to being a weapons and armor market.
The magic healing takes items and character ability out of the equation and makes healing dependent only on player ability. That would be fine for a FPS, but it's not what I'm looking for in a MMORPG. If I was looking for that, I'd have many games from which to choose. As someone who loves the current SWG healing system, I am left with nowhere to go.
But you do understand that items are still based on skill and knowledge...Right? To make the uber stuff you have to know what your looking for, what to experiment on, and how to actually use it at the right time. The current system is based on Player Skill + Items. There really is no difference IMO.
I've been a medical crafter for over a year and a half, so yes, I am aware of the skill involved. Those skills are not just player skill, they depend on what resources you have, how high your character is in crafting, and a little bit of luck.
It's not easy to be a healer....it really isn't, there are a lot of things people don't think about when they base skill on an item. For instance, any joe can get and use a Uber DOT Weapon....and run around claiming they are "god". So I duel them to prove a point...stomp them into the ground, and walk away. What did I just prove? Skill is not based on an item, its based onthe player.
Player skill is, and always will be the biggest factor. I'm not trying to change that. I'm a very experienced combat healer.I love that role enough to be a master doc and master CM. I can have the best stims in the galaxy and it won't help my group a bit if I don't know how to use them correctly.However, if I try to take a group through the DWB with only sim B's,we're dead, no matter how great I am. My point is, right now there are two factors in healing effectiveness, your meds, and your player ability. The CU makes it nothing but player ability.
I hate those people that tell me "No Healing" when they challenge me to a fight. Sorry, but I spent points on "Healing" and I'm gonna use it, don't like it then don't talk crap just because you have a 500+ Mind Fire Weapon that I can cure in 2 hits with a blanket and then smash your face in with my pikes.
Agreed. All skills are fair game in a fight. I've won many more fights than I've lost, and my highest weapon skill is carbines 4 from marksman.
I agree, Our items set us apart for other players....but even with items you had to have skill to back up what you were saying. People often make the mistake of using Firstaid when they should have used Cure Disease. Why becausesome peopleuse a "heal all" macro, and they don't stop to think about it. Point is our profession takes skill to actually "master". Items or no items it still takes skill.
Agreed. See what I said above about the CU removing one of the two factors. I'd much rather see healing still require both. That's what I've always loved about healing in SWG.
Message Edited by Obata on 03-30-2005 05:48 PM
Darksfallen wrote:
Obata wrote:
You're not seeing where our objections to ability based healing are coming from. It's not a role playing thing. It goes beyond that. It's not just about having an item in my inventory. It's about the healing coming from technology rather than magic. There needs to be an item that actually impacts healing ability. Making some generic item with a different name doesn't change the fact that the healing is coming out of thin air and that all master docs heal the same.A craftable item with stats that factor into the healing is a way of differentiating one healer's abilities from another's. Under the new system, the only differentiation will be the enhancers. I equate the enhancers to weapon powerups. If all weapons had the same stats and only powerups were varied, would there really beenough difference to matter? A craftable item is also the link between healing and the player economy. The economy is one of my favorite unique features in SWG. The CU will basically limit it to being a weapons and armor market.
The magic healing takes items and character ability out of the equation and makes healing dependent only on player ability. That would be fine for a FPS, but it's not what I'm looking for in a MMORPG. If I was looking for that, I'd have many games from which to choose. As someone who loves the current SWG healing system, I am left with nowhere to go.
I know exactly where the view is coming from. You are not understand where the Devs are coming from. It's assumed to be technology, a physical representation (items with charges)is not necessary in the scope of the game.
Tell me this: Would you be happy with a single indestructible item in your inventory that the Devs put in that says "Everything you need to have to heal and more Kit"? Sure you craft it yourself, it has stats and so on.
SWG economy is jacked. Mostly by Docs, no one can dispute that. No one wants to be under our thumb anymore.
Weapons and armor market? What about cloths? Food? Drink? Buildings, Art? Couches and chairs? Ships? Swoops?
Will Docs ever be able to make the money that they made before this again? No, and good riddance.
Message Edited by Darksfallen on 03-30-2005 02:29 PM
TarMangani wrote:
MyT_Chicken wrote:
We aren't losing any ability....CRAFTING is not an ability.
I don't think it's intended, but your posts almost read like you hold crafters in contempt...
I like crafting, got no problem doing it, but I'm not gonna get all worked up because I can't do it anymore. And I guess I just don't understand why other people are. If you wanna craft then do that....if you wanna heal do that....If you wanna do both....then do both with the understanding that you won't be able to do much else. BE isn't getting much in the way of healer crafts that we need...they are getting heal crafts that everyone else needs.
Considering you've read nearly every post in the other threads, I'm surprised you would say this, even with your justification in red...
From your other posts, it sounds as if you're focus has been healer, thus the CU is very appealing to your style of play. I for one enjoyed all three aspects of doctor, crafting, buffing and healing, and I don't want to give any of them up.
You don't have to give them up...thats what I'm trying to explain...You can still do all three. But your not going to be doing all three with a Master Combat / whatever profession. If you enjoy all three, its still there if you choose to take it.
Not saying buffing shouldn't be changed, it should, and I can live with that. However I also run a business as a doctor and am one of those who has millions tied up in resources that, based on the factMD's won't use components, are going to tank after the CU, mostly because the medical profession isn't going to use much in the way of components...(which silences all those who said the resources would convert directly to healing components, doesn't it? Or did I read it wrong...).
I dunno how the resources are going to work....will find out today hopefully. However, all items existing in the game today will be converted to conform to the new system. Nothing is being deleted or marked as "worthless". I don't know about resources....but I have millions invested also, so does probably everyone else in here.....and that is *The only* reason I don't like the crafting change.
So I for one am upset about losing crafting because it takes away 1/3 of my profession, and in order to maintain it, I have to sacrifice a part of my Elite professions SP.
Such is life though....but to say that the current "playstyle" is lost is incorrect. It's not....it's still there only you have to make that choice to pick it up or not...and honestly thats not something I'm going to debate. Thats not my call.
Obata wrote:
I don't care about the money. Seriously, I don't give a damn how much money I can or can't make. However, I think it's incredibly rude of you to answetr those who are concerned about a lose of income with "good riddance".
I'llsay I'm sorry for that as I spoke without thinking but grant me a little leeway being grouped as a whole with what is seen as a money gouging profession previously required to function in the game. Thank god it is no longer.
The bottom line for me, is that I will no longer have the option of playing a healing doctor the way I have always loved to do it.
Why? For the same, actually by my math slightly less SP (but I'm horrible with math), you can take the BE crafting line as well. You can now craft expendible, resource dependant enhancers availible to a broader range of people than buffs were. Seems a fair trade off. Not to mention you can still make all your status and wound packs and stims too!
Ledao wrote:
Nicely put Obata.
And Darksfallen, I take Obata to be making the point that these changes remove the user skill from the healing professions. It isn't about whether healing requires an item or not, it's about whether my skill (rather than my toon's skill-boxes) impacts my viability in combat.
I take the "technology rather than magic" distinction to be making exactly this point -- magic is innate, whereas technology can be improved by skill and practice.
Thats not true. At Master the Technology is almost exactly the same...it may very slightly from person to person, but it's pretty close to the exact same thing.
We have a 3000 health w/ the CU. And I'm going out on the limb here, but I'm gonna say that in one hit a Master Doctor can probably heal it for 95-100%. While a Novice Medic can maybe heal it for 5%
It's the same concept as currently the template depicts the strength of the heal....not the Item. A stim B right now can be use by a Novice medic for the Base of the Stim (for example 50 *weak stim b. 
)...So Novice Medic Heal with a hand crafted 50 power stim B...for 50. Now if a Doctor takes that same stim B, he can probably heal for 200.
At Master...with an experienced Healer behind the wheel....the difference between one Doc and another Doc is almost nothing. They heal for the same range types, buff for the same range types. I mean the difference is really almost non existant. Which is why I don't think that Itemless "Magic" healing if going to hurt us. Pound for Pound we are still going to be "The Doctors"
Ledao wrote:
Nicely put Obata.
And Darksfallen, I take Obata to be making the point that these changes remove the user skill from the healing professions. It isn't about whether healing requires an item or not, it's about whether my skill (rather than my toon's skill-boxes) impacts my viability in combat.
I take the "technology rather than magic" distinction to be making exactly this point -- magic is innate, whereas technology can be improved by skill and practice.
Very nicely put yourself. Our skill will raise as we progress in Doc up to masterjust like it always has. The people on the server are just no longer subject to us in everyday gaming. That is why I think it was removed. Not the sole reason but a big one.
Just pick up BE as we lose 2 columns of Medic as a prerec and you are back right where you are. enchancers are expendible.
Darksfallen wrote:
Obata wrote:
I don't care about the money. Seriously, I don't give a damn how much money I can or can't make. However, I think it's incredibly rude of you to answetr those who are concerned about a lose of income with "good riddance".
I'llsay I'm sorry for that as I spoke without thinking but grant me a little leeway being grouped as a whole with what is seen as a money gouging profession previously required to function in the game. Thank god it is no longer.
The bottom line for me, is that I will no longer have the option of playing a healing doctor the way I have always loved to do it.
Why? For the same, actually by my math slightly less SP (but I'm horrible with math), you can take the BE crafting line as well. You can now craft expendible, resource dependant enhancers availible to a broader range of people than buffs were. Seems a fair trade off. Not to mention you can still make all your status and wound packs and stims too!
See my analogy of the enhancers to powerups. They just don't cut it. I do not want to be a spell caster. A 10 - 20% difference is not enough differentiation. I am far less concerned witht he movement of crafting to BE than I am with the magical healing, and the granting of healing abilities to all players.
I've said this before, but it's worth repeating. I have multiple issues witht he CU as a whole (enough so that I've already canceled my accounts and will no longer play SWG after April). SWG has many unique qualities that inspired me to keep playing for so long. Yes, the words "Star Wars" on the box made me give it a try, but that is not what kept me playing. My favorite unique system is the healing system, but I also love that it has a true in-game economy, that players can choose to be a hard-core combatant, a peace loving entertainer or merchant, or anything in between. Unfortunately, many recent changes (including the CU) are abandoning too many of SWG's unique qualities and making it too much like just another member of the EQ family of games.
You don't need two columns in Medic now, BE has no Scout Prereq, get the crafting column in BE and continue wher you left off. If the Devs are kind Enhancers will require the same resources.
Chek wrote:
Docs won't have a source of income by moving the crafting (which is the income) to BE. I've got tons of meds in my output hoppers and on my vendors. And it certainly looks like I'm going to have to 'eat' the cost. I have resources stockpiled to make more, but what will I do with them now? Take a loss? And just how many losses can a player take before he/she is broke?
And the poor BE's? They are few and far between on the Corbantis server, and most don't even make pet meds anymore.
Darksfallen wrote:
Ledao wrote:
Nicely put Obata.
And Darksfallen, I take Obata to be making the point that these changes remove the user skill from the healing professions. It isn't about whether healing requires an item or not, it's about whether my skill (rather than my toon's skill-boxes) impacts my viability in combat.
I take the "technology rather than magic" distinction to be making exactly this point -- magic is innate, whereas technology can be improved by skill and practice.
Very nicely put yourself. Our skill will raise as we progress in Doc up to masterjust like it always has. The people on the server are just no longer subject to us in everyday gaming. That is why I think it was removed. Not the sole reason but a big one.
Just pick up BE as we lose 2 columns of Medic as a prerec and you are back right where you are. enchancers are expendible.
MyT_Chicken wrote:
We have a 3000 health w/ the CU. And I'm going out on the limb here, but I'm gonna say that in one hit a Master Doctor can probably heal it for 95-100%. While a Novice Medic can maybe heal it for 5%
Don't know how you got 3000 health for the docs. The post said:
Health, Action, Mind pools
- A character's maximum health will increase with the character's combat level up to 300%. New character health will be 1000, maxed character health will be 3000.
- Docs won't have a huge combat level, most will only master just one combat profession if possible. So if the heal is based on the total health, then docs heals won't be all that huge.
Chek wrote:
MyT_Chicken wrote:
We have a 3000 health w/ the CU. And I'm going out on the limb here, but I'm gonna say that in one hit a Master Doctor can probably heal it for 95-100%. While a Novice Medic can maybe heal it for 5%
Don't know how you got 3000 health for the docs. The post said:
Health, Action, Mind pools
- A character's maximum health will increase with the character's combat level up to 300%. New character health will be 1000, maxed character health will be 3000.
Docs won't have a huge combat level, most will only master just one combat profession if possible. So if the heal is based on the total health, then docs heals won't be all that huge.
Doctor is a combat profession, and counts toward increasing your health.
MyT_Chicken wrote:
Ledao wrote:
Nicely put Obata.
And Darksfallen, I take Obata to be making the point that these changes remove the user skill from the healing professions. It isn't about whether healing requires an item or not, it's about whether my skill (rather than my toon's skill-boxes) impacts my viability in combat.
I take the "technology rather than magic" distinction to be making exactly this point -- magic is innate, whereas technology can be improved by skill and practice.
Thats not true. At Master the Technology is almost exactly the same...it may very slightly from person to person, but it's pretty close to the exact same thing.
We have a 3000 health w/ the CU. And I'm going out on the limb here, but I'm gonna say that in one hit a Master Doctor can probably heal it for 95-100%. While a Novice Medic can maybe heal it for 5%
It's the same concept as currently the template depicts the strength of the heal....not the Item. A stim B right now can be use by a Novice medic for the Base of the Stim (for example 50 *weak stim b.
At Master...with an experienced Healer behind the wheel....the difference between one Doc and another Doc is almost nothing. They heal for the same range types, buff for the same range types. I mean the difference is really almost non existant. Which is why I don't think that Itemless "Magic" healing if going to hurt us. Pound for Pound we are still going to be "The Doctors"
I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here... Are you saying that there is no difference (or a marginal difference) between two Master Docs using different meds?
Obviously a Master Doc will heal for more than a novice medic with the same Stim -- that's neither here nor there.
My point, which I thought I made fairly clearly on theprevios page, is that right now there is a profound difference betweena Master Doc using the best meds available, and one using non-advanced stuff that he crafts out of whatever resources he can find on the bazaar. Even the difference between someone using the best "store-bought" meds and someone using the best stuff they're capable of making can be enormous. In short, crafting skill plays as much a role in being an effective doctor as the user skill in setting up and using macros, and the avatar skill in the form of modifiers applied to healing rolls.
This difference has been minimized by the over-abundance of inexpensive crafted goods, and was much more apparent in the Fall of '03, but it is absolutely still a difference. And, from everything I've read, it is a difference that will largely go away after the CU.
I don't care who can heal, or for how much, or who are the "Doctors", as you say. What I care about is that the only two professions in this game where real strategic thought came into play are having the primarly element of that strategic play taken away.