Doctor Archive

I paid 2 million for 20k of avian meat a few days ago on Shadowfire... good Dath stuff... 100cpu.

The profit turnaround is huge, so... it's worth it.

I just paid 750 cpu for some perfect avian...

I'll still turn a profit with it if I decide I want to sell more packs made with it.

---

Gooney wrote:

Tiberian,

This is fun.

Ok lets try to not get too far off of what we were actually discussing here. I apologize if I've ruffled your feathers about the whole age thing. I did that in the last post to, I get your point.

At the same time you must see that the way you present your argument has a great deal of influence as to the response you get. The normal gramatical morés exist for a reason, they allow you to organize your assertions in an intelligent manner...thats all nothing more.Ok enough of that.

What we were discussing from the beginning was your assertion that a certain resource was being sold at an unreasonable price. The other posters quickly informed you that the price was not unreasonable but was infact pretty good.

At which point you went on to declare that the rampant greed of theSWG players is causing the economy to spiral upwards out of control. This I disagreed with

At which point I attempted tell you that the economy is in pretty good shape. You also went on to lambast people for trying to get as much for thier sales as possible...as if this is somehow a bad thing. The market is self regulating where prices are concerned... a quick look at the latest Astrotech notes on the main page explains the SWG economy very well.

Then we got into some unnecessary things about business prowess, various personal items, etc.

So lets refine what this is all about...I have to paraphrase as you never came out and said just what it is your concerned/worried/irritated about. But heres what I think your talking about.

Assumption 1: You apparently have some problem with the prices of things in SWG.

Assumption 2: You believe that the problem with prices has to do with player greed. And that this greed is somehow damaging the economy.

Response 1: I believe the prices in SWG are self regulating, on a free market model. Further I believe that it is the buyers responsibility to seek out the best price. I also believe that a seller of merchandize that is priced too high will simply not sell it. Pretty basic stuff.

Response 2: The prices in SWG are a function of supply and demand. No one can possibly make a sale if the buyer doesnt think thier items are worth the cost. I dont believe that noobs will be hurt as if they cant afford what they need they will simply take steps to either. A. Gain the creds they need. B. Gather resources themselves C. Join a PA that helps them. In any MMORPG it is ultimatly the player themselves that is responsible for their wealth or lack thereof.

I have drawn conclusions from what you have written, again because you never come out and say exactly what the problem is or as you see it. Its not that I havent read your posts its just that they are rather unclear. You have been writting very defensivly rather than making a statement. What I have tried to do is understand what the main point your trying to make and then respond to that. I have taken liberties with what you have written, using imaginary or real world examples to reinforce a point of make a statement. If these are not understood then the fault is mine, but I think theyre pretty clear.

-Gooney

---

ruffled my feathers ? how exactly ? everytime youve said something iv countered your argument in such away i that i replyed to each part of what your were saying, you in turn droped to the depths of reducing it to 'you have an infintale way of replying, you cannot spell', well if you even have to comment on such things in my eyes your already struggling to come up witha good argument back.. and again here i see you havecontinued, ohwell here goes.. for the last time i might add..

what i said was i believe 80cpu tobe a ripoff and i stand by that, in my eyes it is.. if others dont think it is then thats their choice, show me where i "declare that the rampant greed of theSWG players is causing the economy to spiral upwards out of control" in any of my posts untill i commented on something you said and i also said it 'could' go like thisand reading the post above this someone paying 750cpu a rippof ? is that not spiraling out of control ? in my eyes it is.

ok self regualting prices.. somethings are maybe.. but im not talking about SWG in general i was talking about avain meat you are the one that said docs arnt ripping anyone off, welli NEVER said they were, you brough that into the conversation so dont try and pin that on me, i simply told you that docs could sell there buffs at 3k a set and still make money i agree not much not much profitbut i challange you to show me where i said DOCTORS are ripping people off before i gaveyou that example!because i have not.. you imagined that bit because i did not and have not typed it, FYI the 3k thing was taken from this post http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=doctor&message.id=47813&page=3 and infact it was selling at 2k a set not 3k!

you keep going on about free market and compairing SWG to the real world well in the real world if you have 3 people selling something the price will usually drop alittle as each person trys to get a share of the market and attaract people to their shop to buy their goods untill noone wants go go any lower with the price and there all roughly the same, now im going to give you an example of SWG and the so called 'free market' hopefully it will be simple enought foryou to follow as you say how much your have struggled to so far, so ill call them players A,B and C

player A is selling avain meatat 100 cpu hes beendoing it awhile and knows he can shift it at this price

player B is new and has heared about the money that can be made from selling avain, not sure what to sell itat he asked a friend who suggests 80cpu wow he thinks thats good! as he gets off the shuttle in coronet he notices someone selling avain and takes note of the price.. 100cpu!!! wow thats 20more than he was going tosell it at.

playerC however wants more than 100cpu for his avain and he waits till the shift moves andhe believes most of the doc's are running low, now he goes off to coronet and and starts spamming what hes got for sale stats etc knowing full well that only hes got any of this quality so he damands 250cpuand he gets it.. payer B walks past and he cant believe what hes seeing.. 250cpu and he only sold it for 100cpu!!! now the next shift of top quality avain meat that comes player B saw it being sold for 250cpu and while he might not have the guts to ask 250cpu hes going to ask more than 100cpu that he charged last time.. player A comes along to sell his avain see's what player B is selling it for so ups his price.. so there you have .. that does happen and you have false inflation.

now if this was the real world as you like to keep compairing it to player B would have sold it for 80cpu player A would have lost his coustom and been forced to reduce his price and player C would have vanished with out a trace and never sold a thing, but as pointed out this does not happen in SWG.

i hope you followed that..

now you say i never come out and say what i mean... dont i ?

ok let me simplify it for you even more..

my 1st post i was saying avain meat is over priced.. whether its sold at 60cpu or 750cpu and thats my opnion

my 2nd post i was just confirming that i at the time of posting had not seen avain meat being sold any higher even though i had been told it had been

my 3rd post i was saying how much buffs at the time were being sold for on my server..the price hasnow gone up btw

4th post i was trying to point out that not ever doc is filthy rich and can afford to buy avain meat and they also buy all there other resources in, (some docs i know for example) and that some for what ever reason dont haveanycombat skills or have very limited combat skills to go hunting it them selves (again some i know) i also commented that we have had 3 good shifts of avain (check SWGcraft - farstar if you want) and that to help my friends out i sold them some at a very cheap 5cpu

5th post i was just telling someone i was helping a friend out and i dont actually collect avain meat to sell or have a vendor, i also commented on the fact i could not be bothered to comment on the other posts as they would not get where i was comming from,and also pointed out i know how hard it is to hunt avain and said how much i had got while we had a good spawn on naboo and pointed out how much money i ernt just form the missions alown and then said how much i could make if i was to sell it

6th post i was agreeing with someone who said not all docs made alot of cash!

7th post myself and DarthXanthic seemed to get are wires alittle crossedabout buffing and money making

8th post i then commented on how i had taken abit more intrest in what avain meat was being sold for and that in the previous 6months i had not bothered seeing as u hunt everything my self, and thatif i had taken more notice then maybe i would not have made the initial post

and then you appeared on the sceen trying to tell me what i ment to write and how wrong i am how my opinion is wrong and how right you are and your opinions are, how noone in SWG is out to rip you off how the economy is perfectly ok and how everything self regualts its self like in the real world with the people selling overpriced stuff going out of business and the 'fair traders' of SWG showing the others how it should be done

if you dont understand the posts i quoted you on then im sorry but i really cannot be bothered to go though everything, but it is simple to follow.. just read what you put and then my answer under it.

and thats it.. i refuse to post any more replys to anything you come out with.. why should i after all im wrong, my opinion is wrong(altho im not quite sure how someonesopinion can be wrong unless i said IMO 2+2=5 or something)SWG is great and you are the all knowing all seeing economist whos opinions only matter

---

Haruspex77 wrote:

---

Tiberian74 wrote:[snip]

ok self regualting prices.. somethings are maybe.. but im not talking about SWG in general i was talking about avain meat [snip]

now im going to give you an example of SWG and the so called 'free market' hopefully it will be simple enought foryou to follow as you say how much your have struggled to so far, so ill call them players A,B and C

player A is selling avain meatat 100 cpu hes beendoing it awhile and knows he can shift it at this price

[...snip most of example...]see's what player B is selling it for so ups his price.. so there you have .. that does happen and you have false inflation.

now if this was the real world as you like to keep compairing it to player B would have sold it for 80cpu player A would have lost his coustom and been forced to reduce his price and player C would have vanished with out a trace and never sold a thing, but as pointed out this does not happen in SWG.

---

Your problem is that you are oversimplifying, suprising as that may be to someone who tried to make sense out of your writing. Simple scenarios like that don't capture the dynamics. Some of the factors you don't consider are:

• Where and when something is sold can seriously affect price, I might pay a lot more for what I need right nowat a convenient store than I would if I were just buying for inventory against future needs.


• Supply is, in the long run, driven by price. If hunting is profitable, there will be new hunters.Same for any occupation (buffers, miners, etc.).But it takes a while.


• Demand is always driven by price, If it looks cheap, I may buy for inventory or speculation. If expensive, some won't be able to afford it at all, and others will only buy what they need.


• Some folks will be hard up for money and want badly to sell fast, even at low prices. Others will hold out for the price they want. Same thing for purchasers.There will be lots of variation from moment to moment, as every sale is different.


• SWG has very inefficient markets. Even in the Coronet starport it is hard to gather offers to compare. The bazaar can be slow, has limited package sizes, and is split up by city with travel needed to pick things up. There is no way to see what is reallyon a vendor except by going there. This makes price variation from one thing to the next more extreme.
  

So you can see it is very dynamic and complicated. I saw some ok avian on the bazaar in Coronet last night for 2cpu sorted next to a similar package for 50cpu. It's not like going into Walmart where the prices are fixed and move slowly, or even the stock market where everyone knows what the last trade sold at. Nobody sets the price, everyone buys or sells as they wish. Some make more money and others have more fun.

I try to do both, because it is fun to figure out.

---

nonono that what i have highlighed is part of what im getting at, there are no fixed prices, and you cannot compaire 'the real world' economics to SWG economics, no matter what theprice something is it will get sold in SWG and if its avain meat for example all the seller has to do is wait untill the good shift of meat goes and then he can sell his meat at an enflated prices knowing he will sell it as the new meat is so poor in comparison and people will pay...

---

Tiberian74 wrote:

nonono that what i have highlighed is part of what im getting at, there are no fixed prices, and you cannot compaire 'the real world' economics to SWG economics, no matter what theprice something is it will get sold in SWG and if its avain meat for example all the seller has to do is wait untill the good shift of meat goes and then he can sell his meat at an enflated prices knowing he will sell it as the new meat is so poor in comparison and people will pay...

---

Sure you can compare RL economics to SWG, but in SWG the Merchant profession isn't given the tools to build a proper retail industry. Players aren't presented with the sanitized version of market economics that retail customers are, instead everybody is thown into the pit of a commodities exchange with all the computers down.

There are no fixed prices in RL either at the wholesale level, but in RL the computers and systems work so there isn't the wide variation from place to place. The retail prices move more slowly, because the retail merchants have enough margin to keep from confusing their customers. Most of the price you pay in the store goes to the several layers of merchants that handle it, if even10% of the price of a grocery store item goes to the original producer it is unusual.

There is nothing except your shortage of assets to keep you from speculating in SWG commodities. Why aren't you the one who buys that meat when it is cheap and sells it when it is high? Of course you would be taking a risk, there might be even better stuff on the next spawn that leaves you with a pile of second rate resources. If enough people did that, then the prices would stabilize a bit, and I could expect to find the good stuff available whenever I needed it.

If we could get the needed systems put in, I could even buy meat futures so I would know that next weekI will be able to replace the packs I am selling today with the cash I get for them.

---

Haruspex77 wrote:

---

Tiberian74 wrote:

nonono that what i have highlighed is part of what im getting at, there are no fixed prices, and you cannot compaire 'the real world' economics to SWG economics, no matter what theprice something is it will get sold in SWG and if its avain meat for example all the seller has to do is wait untill the good shift of meat goes and then he can sell his meat at an enflated prices knowing he will sell it as the new meat is so poor in comparison and people will pay...

---

Sure you can compare RL economics to SWG, but in SWG the Merchant profession isn't given the tools to build a proper retail industry. Players aren't presented with the sanitized version of market economics that retail customers are, instead everybody is thown into the pit of a commodities exchange with all the computers down.

There are no fixed prices in RL either at the wholesale level, but in RL the computers and systems work so there isn't the wide variation from place to place. The retail prices move more slowly, because the retail merchants have enough margin to keep from confusing their customers. Most of the price you pay in the store goes to the several layers of merchants that handle it, if even10% of the price of a grocery store item goes to the original producer it is unusual.

There is nothing except your shortage of assets to keep you from speculating in SWG commodities. Why aren't you the one who buys that meat when it is cheap and sells it when it is high? Of course you would be taking a risk, there might be even better stuff on the next spawn that leaves you with a pile of second rate resources. If enough people did that, then the prices would stabilize a bit, and I could expect to find the good stuff available whenever I needed it.

If we could get the needed systems put in, I could even buy meat futures so I would know that next weekI will be able to replace the packs I am selling today with the cash I get for them.

---

there are simularaties yes but im sorry i stand by the fact u cannot compare real file witha game.. and definitly not SWG.

if you were to hunt things in reallife and sell the meat for cash this would mostly likly be your onlysource of imcome.. on top of that you wouldhavemore than the cost of traval to tend withyou would have to pay to go hunt on someones land on an hourly, daily or what ever basis, they would not payyou for the privalage.

you would alsoneed some sort of permit to hunt, you would have to find the animals to kill and you would not be garanteed X mount of animals to kill per nest, you would need insurance and god knows how much more things im not even goign to go into

there is so much in real world business that most people dont see and dont even know exsist, things like hidden costs, vat, tax, are you going to do it all on your own will get hire people to help.. if you do hirethen opens even more stuff you could not possibly imagine, the list is endless

iv not really anything else to say on the matter really.. but if anyone who is in business and also believe this is just like the real thing then please tell me what you do, where you live.. cos i would sure like it to be so easy and ill try and emegrate!

Message Edited by Tiberian74 on 05-05-2004 05:15 PM

---

Tiberian74 wrote:[snip]

ok self regualting prices.. somethings are maybe.. but im not talking about SWG in general i was talking about avain meat [snip]

now im going to give you an example of SWG and the so called 'free market' hopefully it will be simple enought foryou to follow as you say how much your have struggled to so far, so ill call them players A,B and C

player A is selling avain meatat 100 cpu hes beendoing it awhile and knows he can shift it at this price

[...snip most of example...]see's what player B is selling it for so ups his price.. so there you have .. that does happen and you have false inflation.

now if this was the real world as you like to keep compairing it to player B would have sold it for 80cpu player A would have lost his coustom and been forced to reduce his price and player C would have vanished with out a trace and never sold a thing, but as pointed out this does not happen in SWG.

---

Your problem is that you are oversimplifying, suprising as that may be to someone who tried to make sense out of your writing. Simple scenarios like that don't capture the dynamics. Some of the factors you don't consider are:

• Where and when something is sold can seriously affect price, I might pay a lot more for what I need right nowat a convenient store than I would if I were just buying for inventory against future needs.


• Supply is, in the long run, driven by price. If hunting is profitable, there will be new hunters.Same for any occupation (buffers, miners, etc.).But it takes a while.


• Demand is always driven by price, If it looks cheap, I may buy for inventory or speculation. If expensive, some won't be able to afford it at all, and others will only buy what they need.


• Some folks will be hard up for money and want badly to sell fast, even at low prices. Others will hold out for the price they want. Same thing for purchasers.There will be lots of variation from moment to moment, as every sale is different.


• SWG has very inefficient markets. Even in the Coronet starport it is hard to gather offers to compare. The bazaar can be slow, has limited package sizes, and is split up by city with travel needed to pick things up. There is no way to see what is reallyon a vendor except by going there. This makes price variation from one thing to the next more extreme.
  

what some of dont realize is:

i have been a doc for a month and there is more to buffs than just avian meat there is reactive gas,herb meat,dolovite iron tat fiber,lok wheat,dom oates,class 4 liq petro just for the buffs and for the good stuff ppl are charging 50-100 cpu for the resources that can be harvested with extractors now why sell the high quality resources for 50-100 cpu but sell the low end resources for 3-5 cpu when it doesnt cost you anymore to harvest it?

the meats i can understand cause of playing time and such i could live with that but to sell dolovite and class for 50-100 cpu is just ridiculos so if i payed 100 cpu for all the good resources to make 1 pack of each buff my cost would be aroun 100k and if i got 20 uses out of it and buffed for 7k to the public my profit would be 40k not to mention the time it takes to make them and the factories im using.

i try to keep my buffs at lower prices and if you all lowered the resource prices we could lower the buff prices perhaps back to 6k for a set.if not i will refuse to buff the public or charge alot for a set since iam being overcharged.

what you should look at is the smugglers today i was going to get my armor sliced and the smuggler was trying to charge 5k per item for armor and 4k per item for weapons there is no need for that since they dont need good resources to slice they can use the porrest and still get the same results smugglers have the higher profit margin i should know i started as a smuggler it was dirt cheap for me to get rich just not as quick.

and even though im a doc im still not rich i started with 4mill as a doc spent 3mill on resources and the apron and have no ca or aa i couldnt afford it,and still havent made my money back due too overpricing jerks and bad resource pops.