Doctor Archive
Thread: Skill Points and Doctors...A way for us to regain 15 SP.
When i actually stop to think about it. i agree that medics/doctors should not have surey or sample unless they want to pay for them with skill points.
the medical companies of today dont grow their own plants or gather their own minerals they have to buy them or spend money to have that ability.
so we medics/ doctors should those skillunless we are willing to pay for them.
but theres the tough part, i can spend skill points and not have all the skills i want or i can spend cash and not have all the materials i want....
personaly i think artisans sell their materials at way to high prices.... more calculations on the cost of getting the matirals needs to be done. why charge 4-5 per unit when it might cost the artisan only .5 credits per unit to gather. im not too sure on this so i might be wrong.... but when i can get 15k of minerals for about 12k cash and have a artsan complain about not making a profit at 2/1 price (24k) for the same thing i wonder if they even know how much money they are spending vs takeing in..
but im going off subject there,,,
i would love to give up artisan but the sad fact is i cant afford it.
do like i did. depend on others ot survey for you give u waypoint then you place harvesters..
i have friends who do that for me.
Why, because most other crafting professions DO have the ability to get their own resources. (I do regard medicalforage as the joke of the millennia)
2) This is not about player dependency.
If it were there would have been created a Miner Profession.
3) This IS about player equality.
If I have to play 15 points to become more self-sufficient then ALL crafting classes should.
Redtwo, I strongly disagree with that assertion. We are mandatory crafters. You must craft in order to ever be a Doctor. Period. You will neverreach NoviceDoctor if you do not craft. It is an absolute requirement for the field. It is not simply the best way to play. Add to that the extremely varied and wide variety of resources required to make the wider variety of items available for us to craft, the complexity of the schematics, the complexity of dealing with and understanding the formulas used for which stats really do what, thevariety of experimentationoptions (and the last two are even far more varied for Combat Medics) and you are looking at some pretty strong similarities to several of the artisan fileds in crafting requirements and schematics available.
I think that central to the idea here is that while monetary solutions could provide a means of alleviation for Doctors by allowing us to actually afford to pay for those artisans who are interested in resource gathering, you are still forcing a profession that absolutely relies and cannot progress without crafting and resources to turn to another profession that fits the same criteria, yet is self-reliant.
We should also consider that neitherskills norabilities are sacred cows in the game no matter how much we may think they should be. Combat Medics and Squad Leaders get Terrain Negotitation bonuses (the purview of the Scout) andPet Stims have handed the healing of pets, to include their mind damage, over to anyone (previously the purview of the Medic professions alone, although a least it is a Medic profession that makes these packs.)
Now, personally I think providing some, not all, of the /survey ability (even if they excluded some items from it to limit it more towards medics, such as woods and lubricating oils) perhaps at a more limited range than for artisans, as well as providing the possibility of sampling a single resource for any given smple tick so greatly hinders a Docs ability to compete with an Artisan that it would not be nearly as competetive as some would have us believe.
Is it the "easy way". Maybe, to some extent. This does not preclude me from acknowledging other options that might be available, but having virtually no ability to obtain our own resources, even to a lesser degree than an artisan (1/3, since we have only 1/3 of our skillset requiring crafting XP?), seems virtually unacceptable to me and definitely not within the spirit of the the game in the sense of what other professions can achieve in what is conidered a required and acceptable level of self-sufficiency, if we are to use those other professions as our comparison.
The problem, as I see it, with a terminal for player-based resource missions is that I might be looking for Dolovite Iron, and I might need it in farily large quantities to haven any hope of being even remotely competetive, but if a miner only get, say 20 units of Dolovite Iron this shift, but then gets 100 units the next, of some garbage Iron that spawned that time, and another 300 of yet a different one.... It's not like the order reallygot filled. Variety might be the spice of life, but it's the bane of a crafter. I never can seem to find anyone else who is nearly as willing to make sure they grab a 10k stack of some of a specific resource as I, myself, would be willing to do.
Far too often in this game if you really want the job done right, you just have to do it yourelf. And truthfully I'm not convinced that there are even enough folks actually interested in being resource miners to completely support the extremely varied resource needs of all the different crafts. So if somebody else WON'T do it, that leaves it up to me, or it just won't get done at all. And if it doesn't get done at all, then I don't advance. (That's a theoretical I, BTW, since I personally no longer need anything to advance in the profession.)
So are there other options? Sure. Several of them metioned here (and this thread is included in the Top 5 list that got sent to the Devs with this issue on it.) So far, I'm just not swayed by them, nor have I been swayed by the arguments against the acceptability of some form of /survey and /sample in the medic line. So far. Somehow I think none of my arguments have swayed any of the other folks away from their counter to my view, either. 
Critters wrote:
I have heard medical forage was the fix for this, but I think consensus is that it is inadequate.
Wow.
Understatement of the decade. 
Zarlor, points very will taken. It is true that to become a Doc we have to craft, and that is a good argument for us being a crafting class. If we want to become Master Doctors we also have to craft. This does not necessarily make us a crafting class, it does at the very least make us a hybrid. The complexity of what we have to craft and the rarity of the resources is another very good point that we are more crafters than hybrids, though I'm not giving up yet that we're more hybrids than crafters.
One thing is if crafters are so self-reliant then why do they require resource gathers? I do think they are self-reliant enough to get to "Master" level without outside help. But to take this a bit deeper how does being a Master Doctor use up all you skill points? Master Medic is 77 pts, with Master Doc its a total of 140 pts. Some form of combat, say range weapon 4 and one weapon to lvl 4 costs another 43 pts for a total of183. These would be the most common. From there you might want more combat or entertainer. But you still have 67 pts to play with. Is everyone trying to be a Doc/CM or something?
Looking at it another way... where does it stop? If we get some from of survey/sample what about hunting? We need rare resources gathered from hunting. Do we start crying for that too once we get surveying and sampling?
I agree with you that skills aren't sacred cows. But I do feel we should try other solutions before we grab from other classes, and not just for us but any class changes. I know for a fact that the economy has some major issues and that is why I want to change that first. If we first change the classes then the economy will be harder to correct and may not get done.
I also have to agree that there may not be enough players gathering resources to fill our bills. But I can't really tell due to the structure of the economy. The economy is to supply sided and that is what I want to focus on fixing before adding skills that affect the economy.
I'm willing to be swayed, but will try to sway you back. Got to run but will post more soon.
Any idiot can weild a DX2, but without the cert they are worthless. Why not something similar with the survey tools? We can use them, but without the cert we just can't use them very well?
There are countless ideas regarding this and ways to assist the medical community without having them spend 15 skill points to do so.
The fact of the matter is, we ARE crafters. Regardless of wether or not we branch from artisan. Regardless of title. We are crafters. To say we are simply 'hybrids' is unnacceptable.
Our materials we craft can ONLY be used by those with Medical Skill, unlike BE or Smuggler. Their items can be used by anyone. Just like the other 'true' crafting classes.
Why not give us the ability to survey, albeit less efficiently?
Iagree with Texxie in that we are already pretty darned hindered when it comes to target market. We have many and complex schematics involved in our crafting. Yet, economically we are further hindered by only being able to sell our items to each other or to the dabblers in the Medic profession/self-healers.
I don't see that changing the economy will really affect this. We will still be outbid by the "true crafters" simply because they have more marketable and broader markets than we do, for those who are trying to make thier income (as a Doctor) from sales. We all know that those trying to make money from services are rarely so lucky to find that market lucrative, but that's part of another issue. It would be one thing to argue that we could be competetive with surveyors if surveyors were actually selling to us. As it stands, I would have to say that we are a crafting class, but crutched by having a severely limited market to sell to. I say we are not much of a "hybrid", as I know Docs who craft more tham most Artisans. How much crafting does an Artisan need to do to fulfill their everyday needs since they may need to make a gun once ever few weeks for themselves, but we practically need to make meds, of EVERY variety, almost dailiy, in some cases. Ifit weren't for a secondary market I doubt there would be many artisans who would craft the exceptional variety or quantities of things that most Docs I know do.
Is this "greed"? (And that is a very strong word, Traigus, considering it is listed among the "7 deadly sins" and could be taken by some as a very grave insult just from having a differing oponion, just to let you know.) Greed would seem to imply something very insidious and I simpy don't see it. Nor do i see folks trying to complain much about Docs being too greedy or having a bad rep as money grubbers. Too many artisans who can easily claim that title. I know more than a few and most of them who do make the effort to rely on thier Artisan skill to make them money are downright filthy with the stuff. So I just don't agree that this kind of thing would be true of us.
BTW, not that any of this make any difference, but this is stuck in as the #4 Issue on the Top 5 just sent in to the Devs, so we do know that Docs are feeling the crunch on this issue and would like to see something done in this area. It's definitely a very strong majority, in my experience, who think something needs to happen on this problem, so it's certainly not an isolated issue. I've seen the threads by CMs, BEs and Medics listing this as a serious issue throughout our professions.
I will say this, fewer people seem to bring up the issue when it comes to scout skills. The reason,I conjecture, is that Meats, overall, are a lesser need for us, even thoughthey are still a need. I think that Scouts and Rangers, however, are actually better suited to supply us than resource miners are. They tend to be able to gather resources only in smaller numbers, they are actually used to,I think, getting ripped off by artisans (considering there is far more work and far more danger involved in harvesting from creatures than there is from resource sampling) and as such they are willing to offer their goods at a price medics are more capable of affording, and because they are a semi-combat support class, they tend to get hurt often enough that they can appreciated the services of a Medic. Who brought us those resources we needed when we were Novice Medics? Usually those Novice Scouts as soon as they found out we could use the organics they were getting to cover heling costs instead of a tip. So,I think, there tends to be more of a bond between scouts and medics, and as such less of a need amongst medics to get meats as much as it is to get our other needs.
Ya, I posted to it as I saw it was the #2 issue and though we could debate it a bit more.
Just because what we do is an exception, in that what we make is restricted in what classes can use it, does not mean we are crafters. Life is full of exceptions. It comes down to what is a crafter. I consider a crafter one where all their trees require crafting. Artisan and Merchant are not crafters to me. Artisan leads to all the crafting classes but is a hybrid. If you want to say we are then fine. The solution is to remove Medic from a base class and have it stem off the Artisan class. Would that make you happy? The thing that got me into this was that Traigus seem to look at the player balance on a larger scale while everyone else was looking at what they needed. There seemed to be too little discussion on the balancing issue and no one talked about his solutions. I know why. What we want is a fix now. But let's face it, we're not going to get a fix now. Kind of wish Devs would let us know what they are considering so we could focus or debate more, but I know there busy and I want them that way. It just seems that if they were going to give us sampling they would have.
If we started using certs with survey tools, and thus we don't have the certs, then you will still hear complaining about how inefficient/slow we are at sampling and why we don't have the whole line.
But forget about everything I just posted and answer me this, how would having surveying/sampling in any form get us more cash? Sure we will be more self-reliant, but just as poor. The most important thing is what are we going to do with 15 extra points (27 if you give up survey 4). That's a ton of points. The CH just got that gift and it was a bad choice in my mind, though I haven't thought it out all the way as to why they got it (more posters on that board?) What would you spend them on vortexala? What are you dieing to have? More combat skills? We all want the 15 pts but that's a lot of points.
Justify to me why we should get 27 more skill points, or even 15. What do we need 15 more points for? We need to ask the questions the Devs will ask and this will be there biggest gripe. Do Medics, Docs and CMs need 15pts? I'm really asking 2 questions here.
1. Should getting survey/samplebe a top 5 issue?
2. Shouldn't earning more cash be the real issue?
To me, earning cash is actually a separate issue. Could this earn us more money? Maybe if we tried to use some kinds of surveying skills to get Doonium Iron, or whatever it is that weaponsmiths will pay 10-15cr per resource for. But truthfully i could care less about that and is not directly part of the issue at hand.
The question come in at balance. Fine.
You're saying nobody is looking at the balance issue. I say we've been looking at it since Beta and I'm, personally willing to accept that it has been addressed well enough. Addressed by arguments such as the fact that giving a Medic some form of survey does NOT somehow instantly make him richer (this was a nargument proposed by Holo as to why we should NOT get this ability). Or that we are somehow taking something away from resource miners, when we are simply not on their radar as a viable market anyway. These are balance issues and properly addressed, IMHO. Those ARE part of the big picture.
Add indthe fact that virtually every class has some ability to be self-reliant, and I would argue that they NEED that ability to some extent or another, but that Medics, in fact, are NOT self-reliant in this repect. Note I state self-reliatn, not strictly in the sense of solo play. Obviously Medics can no longer act as a solo class, because they will never get XP for healing themselves or their pet (3/4 of our tree). Entertainers are the only other class in this category in that they also cannot get XP without having someone watching/listening to them with some damage for them to heal (1/4 of the XP required for their tree).
My suggestion here is that we are already unbalanced. The big picture is not that the game was balanced at the beginning, but that it was unbalanced. The "as is" is not an approprate state, but an unbalanced one where adding some ability to get the Medic professions back into line with the self-reliant capabilities of the other classes would help to bring that balance back.
We mustconsider statements that we DO have from the Dev team, I would think, since as you mentioned we have been so sorely neglected in finding other methods of guidance here. Statements to the effect at SWG is intended to be a casual-player friendly game and that it is suposed to be a viable game for those who enjoy solo play. I contend that the current sitaution in these profession is actually counter to those sentiments.
I would also contend that you really are not asking 2 questions alone, here, but quite a few more and that by responding only to those two i would never realy be responding to the issues you raise. Instead I will say that, yes, I personally do think this should be a Top 5 issue (and I would say the majority of Docs, at least, and likely the majority of Medical Professional, would agree with me. Go back and count the vote, if you don't believe me.) And that earning cash may be a more important issue for you, but I think it is a far less imporatant issue than this one, for me and for so many others. Many may complain about Money, but I think it only lost ground dropping to (I think) #8. They may complain, but they do not feel it is as much of an issues as those other items.
The justification of 15 skill points is an interesting issue, since to some extent that is what we are talking about, but we are also talking about it in a way that still makeskeeping that 15 points in Artisan for that level of surveying, appealing, IMHO. Hand sampling is, and likely always will be, more efficient than using a personal harvester. And there are times and places where doing so, especially for the quantity levels we most often need (meaning under 5k stacks), makes having that ability far preferable to simply dumping a harvester.
Asking what we would do with 15 points isn't really relavent, though, IMHO. It's not 15 extra points just appearing out of nowhere. There is still a whole other slate of Artisan skills wrapped up in that 15 points that someone may still prefer, but it provides them the flexibility to stay out of Artisan if they really don't want to be in there. It's the same extra 15 points that every other profession has. IF the professions were otherwise balanced in their skills, then I agree that somehow finding a way to give Docs 15 points would be unbalancing. However, I would suggest that those 15 points are now an unbalancing factor for us in that it virtually forces us to spend that 15 points in Artisan insted of providing us with the flexibility to use it wherever we like, like every other profession can do.
What would I use the extra 15 points for? Honestly? Probably Pistoleer(Since I already have Pistol Specialist. And this is NOT because everyone else is a pistoleer at this point). Why? Because, as it stands, I get the crap missions to run. I figure with a few extra points towards combat, I'd get a bit better paying missions to help cover costs.
Or maybe pick up novice entertainer simply for the ability to /sing 
Or maybe novice scout so I can make a small camp to heal wounds in the field, or call my droid in the field.
Or any number of other options available.
What I do with those 15 points is irrelevant. The fact I don't have them to use in the first place is the issue.