Doctor Archive
Thread: Skill Points and Doctors...A way for us to regain 15 SP.
Texxie and I don't hate each other or anything... we just disagree on a lot of stuff...very seriously.
Lol, we even play on the same server.
-T
Traigus wrote:
I think it was my turn to rant...it was pretty nasty... still though your logic does not follow.
My reponse is.. If you wanna be a subset of artisan by claiming to be a crafter (which I might be inclined to agree with, considering the amounts fo crafting I do).. then fine.. pay the 15 points for novice artisan, JUST LIKE all the other artisans.
Seems fair to me.
Ah, but all the OTHER Crafting professions start at Novice Artisan EXCEPT Us. Just because WE Don't Does NOT mean we are NOT Crafters. Architects, Weaponsmiths, Armoursmiths, Tailors, Droid Engineers, and Chefs branch off of Novice Artisan. But the Doctor, Combat Medic and Bio-Engineer all Branch from Medic. Just because of this one difference, we are suddenly NOT crafters? I fail to see how that is so. Please, explain it more clearly.
Did I ever say that ALL I want, that the ONLY thing I want, is to take their abilities? No. It was one of MANY choices which have been offered up in this, and the other, threads. Which is Best? The one that benefits the MOST professions. Which is that? Maybe that's what we SHOULD be discussing.
Simply because I started this thread seeking the /survey and /sample, or similar, abilities Does NOT mean they are the Only thing I will settle for. And to say that it was a simple power-grab, that's going overboard there Traigus. Really, really overboard.
It seems like a simple fix... but it isn't.
Artisan advanced professions.. HAVE to take artisan to become advacned professions.. DE, WS, chef etc. They HAVE to pay that 15 points (plus at least 4 skill boxes in artisan) to geti their advanced profession.... they wanan get better.. thay HAVE to buy 4 boxes in survey as well.
Artisan is obviously a sub category of those advanced professions... and so are the skilsl in te associated artisan branches (tailor does not have to take engineer.. nor does the tailor HAVE to take suirvey 1-4).
We are not in that tree... no matter how much we need materials. Teh opposite side of your argument... is if we need materials.. We HAVE to to spend the 15 points.. JUST LIKE THEY DO... Why should we get it for free?
Why do medics get survey/ sample? Where is te justification in the skill line? In the theoretical concept of medics? I nany way that makes sense to anyone? There isn't any... There is no reason for medics to be able to use these tools without another novice skill... if ywe sepnd 15 points in Artisan.. we are artisans.. and we have a logical access oto that survey skill... As a medic... there is no such connection.
The problem is "We can't get the materials we want!"
The solution isn't to give medics /sample or /survey.. because they have no place in that profession logically... We just want our stuff... and that is never a reason to do a quickfix that can unbalance a game. It all comes down to greed.
I want my stuff too... but i'm not willing to resort to a cheap powergrab from another proferssion to do it.
It is our responsibility as the mminority of people who post here on the messageboards, to make te game better for everyone though our suggestions (not just for medics doc/cms btw... because the other professions that get hurt, might be us (or other server alts) too). This is not a class game... Those other professions are US too.
We should be suggesting NEW ways for us to get our stuff... that was the direction I was going... New ways that make the game richer for everyone... not jsut us.
You all just want to hijack someone else's skills... that does not advance the game at all. it is greed.
If you weren't paying attention... here are some of the problems your quick fix would cause the game overall:
1.) While medics would indeed sample/survey for their own use.. they would also attempt to sell materials... would tey sell cheap medic materials to other medics (plus they coudl all get them themselves)? Maybe a few of us... but when rare metal sells 10-15 cr a unit... what would a wise medic get to make a profit? This undercuts the artisan (especially low leveled ones that pay for training through material sales)... We still face the problem of, "why can the medic compete with an artisan in mining anything?" Why does the medic even have this skill?
In the end medics will mine for themselves personally, and rare metals for cash... making medics more self-sufficient, while causing a drain on another part of the economy.
2.)The few people that are learning to gather materials for medics... will go out of business... and be foreced to compete wiht everyone else in the metals market. The peopel that spent the 15 points nad 4 boxes of survey... to supply a market.. will be shut out. Instead of encouraging people to work with us.. We shut those very same people out.
3.) Medics become even more powerful.. they will become self-sufficient power professions... Currently Doc's and CM's are overpowered... at least now they have a material limitation to how many E meds and buffs they can make... without spending the large value of 15 points on artisan... free sampling will give them 15 more points to become even more self sufficient.
4.)Medics will get an even worse reputation for greed. If we can get all of our own stuff. .. why do we need to charge for heals? At least now we can argue "I can't afford novice artisan, and must by myself stuff"... Along with the money.. This will FORCE medics to be miners. If you have the skill, there is no excuse not to use it (see 1.. there is no reason for medics to sell to other medics.. if everyone has the skills).
Yes. I agree there is a problem with materials.. But is see you all as being shortsighted and greedy on this.
We should be coming up with better way to encourage Artisans to get and sell us stuff cheaply... not to steal their abilities so we can do everything ourselves. If the correspondant progam does what it is intended to, we can push any solution to a high enough priority to get it in the next month's patch. If we can make it imperative that we and other people need player missions.. it will get player missions moved up(or whatever other solution we come up with).
Quick fixes, just because we want something "NOW!", and saying "When will that other possible solution ever show up?" as an excuse for the cheap fix ... is lazy, greedy, and sad. We can make the issue important. We can see it REALLY fixed.
We can make a change to fix a real problem...that makes the game better for us AND other professions... Or we can cry and take away from other professions for our own personal gain.
Which type of people do you wanna be?
-T
(boy that sounded harsh..)
2 things
smugglers dont require specifics like doctors do
stealing survey would be bad
i like the idea od droids who can survey, but what i really want is some sort of planetary survey ability, its not that easy to trapse around dantooine/lok/yavin for the CM/doc stuff.. which leads into miners as a class coming back..
the best non evil one ivecome up withso far, is a setup like the BH droids, fire it off,a nd it finds the highest concentration within xXXXmeters(2-4 max id suggest) that are one time use, and cost about as much as redeeding a small harvester(so 333 resources, and markup to 1500c roughly)
you would tell it what type and it would give you a wp, no limits, sorry if it finds one in a no build..
either that or one time use 3-4k+ costing ones that survey a LARGE portion(if not all)of a planet for a specific resource and show you a map that you can zoom in on(like the planetary map)
I don't buy bottom shelf inorganics. I can usually easily find 900+ OQ resources on the bazaar (During good resource shifts at least... current one has barely anything above 800) for 3:1. I've even set up deals with people I buy resources from when I see they have a high quality type... I'll arrange to have them directly sell large quantities to me.
But anywho, I'm not arguing against Medics needing a resource gathering skill. I'm just saying that even without one, you don't HAVE to be an Artisan. I fully agree that a usable Medical Forage would make things infinitely better.
The mind heal threads are a great example of this... instead of operating on multiple solutions to mind incaps at higher levels.. people started chanting "mind heal now!"
No matter what your intent, you were forming a rallying cry for the theft of /survey and /sample as the "simplest" solution to the problem... and the one easiest for people here to rally around.
We still haven't seen the response to any of the medical issues lists, but the mind damage issue came very close to a demand for mind healing NOW!... and that would not have flown well.
Trying to halt that kind of ranting and demanding trend here in the medical areas... even though I'm not supposed to be a community leader... sometimes I slip lol. But it is destroying some of the other professions areas.
We are developing a severe case of the "But they have's..." on this issue.
Maybe I'm just getting touchy in my old age...
-T
But I can see where your coming from when you put it that way.
Woah..maybe I'm getting soft in my old age
XRXTypeO wrote "...the best non evil one ivecome up withso far, is a setup like the BH droids, fire it off,a nd it finds the highest concentration within xXXXmeters(2-4 max id suggest) that are one time use, and cost about as much as redeeding a small harvester(so 333 resources, and markup to 1500c roughly)"
That is an interesting idea XR, but I would offer a different approach instead (originally posted on the Medic board)
Why not allow Droid Engineers the capability to create Survey and Mining chips for droids? Owners of droids equipped with these new chips would be able to survey and collect material without requiring the user to havenovice artisan skills.The chips could come in various levels and improve in capability as they scaled, but never reach the capability of a level IV surveyor. The droid could be used in conjunction with a survey tool or (if possible)the droid would be manufactured with a built-in survey tool or tools.This might give the Binary Load Lifter droid a purpose.
I've also recommended (in a post on the Development forum) a similar modification to Surgical droids where theywould allow non-medic owners the capability to heal themselves. The caveatwould be the user would have to purchase medical supplies and store them in the droid and the medicine would function at a reduced rate (scaling up with higher-end chips).This would give us a much larger market for medical supplies.
I guess you could argue that allowing droids the capabiity to perform novice-level functions would reduce player-dependancy. However, given their vulnerability to MoBs,pathing issues (getting stuck on server boundaries), and perma-death - as long as the skill was scaled back I don't think this would be detrimental.
Personally, I'm trying to avoid having to use harvesters. I'd rather make one trip to Lok or Datooine and spend a few hours surveying and collecting resources than be forced to return each day or two maintaining a harvester. So, to me, a droid that only surveys only solves half the problem.
Leonard McCoy, Medical Intern, Mos Espa, Tatooine
I agree on the fact that no class should be totaly self proficient, however doctors/medics are crafters, and crafters need reasources.
So heres my take on it. Currently most of the materials master artisians need mostly are the inorganic materials. just take a look outside there are a 100x more chemical and mineral harvestors out there than flora farms.
Doctors/medics are more heavily dependant on the organic side, with all the picky requirments for some meds.
And thus a problem ensues, i wouldnt mind droping artisan, but to make the best stuff i can i need it to find those rare organic materials. Seeing that barely any artisan would be willing to give up precious deed slots to put down harvestors they dont need, I have to depend apon myself to search for the organics.
thus i propose that the medic class get the organic survey and are only able to place organic harvestors. The artisans keep the inorganics.
this splits the supply classes in two and would probably produce better materials, since people now have more deed space to devote to harvesting
Medics will still need artisan for the inorganics but now artisans will need medics if they need some organics. This promotes more community which this game seems to be trying hard to go for.
HEH just a thought.
Traigus you are the bomb. You are 100% correct on the solutions and the game balancing issues. The problem is they want to have a quick solution and your solution probably could not be done quickly. The /survey and /sample solution is will combine fields. In RL, not that that has everything to do with game world, there are people that make/discover the medicine and those that apply it. Generally they are not the same but these people want to be the same. Considering the issues of cash I understand it. They aren't charging 1000 credits per point of damage like in the real world and thus can't afford to buy their own medical supplies from those that would specialize in making them.
In short I support having player missions. This is not the best solution. A quota type system would be better. But that might be harder to implement than a mission system. By quota system I mean where a player would put up x amount of money for y good. Any player that has the good could then dump them off at the bazaar and get paid. e.g. A player could offer 2 credits for each Dolovite Iron with a pool of 2000 credits to start. As players drop off units, say a player drops off 111 units, and then the pool goes down, in this case by 222 credits so the pool would now be at 1888 credits. It's a stronger implementation of the mission idea, but I bet harder implement. This or a mission system is important because it tells players what other players' want. It is better than giving us /sample and /survey because it is very useful to all players and classes. It is better because it dynamically changes the economy in a positive way. Giving us /sample and /survey do not change the economy enough, they will only reduce our gripping a bit.
I also agree that we, as in all players,need some means to lookup the values/stats of all currently harvestable items and all the schematics. A terminal was a perfect solution. If it gave stats for items that are not currently harvestable then they better tell us they aren't harvestable or not have them in the system, as it would confuse the issue.
All in all I figure this would take them about a year, if were lucky, to get out the door and on to live servers. Which of course is why everyone is justified in wanting /sample and /survey. It's just not the best solution.
Zarlor, I disagree with yho. We are not mandatory crafters. It's just the best way to play given the current economical situation. Thus Traigus's solution, to change the economy, is the better solution. It is true that more plp will want to do the better paying jobs/missions that real artisans would put up. But since everyone will want to do them they will dry up and look to us, and our orders will get filled. It's that demand and supply thing we ignored in school. It does work I hear.
The answer to our cash problem is to find some way for us to get paid when doing healing. This is far more complex of a problem. I have some reservations about the idea, but it's the best I've heard so far; and that is to have all players who get healed in a medical center have to pay through some form of forced mechanism. Implementation is key here and the issue that will make or break it, and of course why the Devs' are skittish about it. If the Devs' would really consider this I would chime in with ideas, but I just don't think they will go for it. Of course a general strike by all in the medical professions would be fun.A few days of that would make my year.
This is 100% wrong, for a simple reason.
If you want class interdependancy, then allow me to pay you with what I earn with my doctor profession for the resources I need - sound good to you? Resources are both expensive (normal ones go at 3-4cr with ease on the bazaar) and hard to get. We need high quality resources, not just any crap will do, and we also need oddball stuff that not many people mine.
If I made money bieng a doctor, I would not have a problem buying my resources.
--You all just want to hijack someone else's skills... that does not advance the game at all. it is greed.--
Um, ok what would you call bieng able to heal a pet with no skill? A pet that is a better tank than any person, combine the fact that pet stims heal mind as well... yeah....
--4.)Medics will get an even worse reputation for greed. If we can get all of our own stuff. .. why do we need to charge for heals?--
Charging any less than what my resources would go for is a loss of money for me. If I used a wound E on you, and spent 160 rare resources making that wound E - it costs me money to heal you. You make money selling resources right now, you dont by bieng a healer. I am because of this an artisan the majority of the time, a doctor 10% of the time.
My main problem with skill points, is that as a master doctor, I require Artisan and Survey, and scout, just to make what I need - mostly because I can not afford to buy it. This sucks up at the least 30 points of my skill pool, just so I can make the meds that I need.
I proposed a limited survey. Surveying would work as such -
1) Every 2 boxes in medical crafting would give another box of surveying. IE Master Doctor crafting, and you now have survey IV. The survey level would give in the medical persons case, the range only, the ability for what to survey for is based on other things.
2) Surveying would be modified (perhaps through a medical survey tool) to represent the things we need to survey for. When you hit the level where you need lokian wheat, now you can survey for it. You would be able to do this for Polymer, Seeds, Fiberplast, Lokian wheat, Dantoine berries, Talusian water, Dolovite Iron ect. This could even be done with different levels of tools. Master Doc Crafting survey tool then would need a cert for example.
3) No general survey would be permitted (ie organics, inorganics, chemical, water) This allows too much freedom to survey for things that a medic really doesnt need or use. I dont need ore, unless Im selling it, so I dont need to survey for it. This limits surveying to things a medic needs, and only when they can make it.
I dont think that would be such a greedy power grab myself.
I think SOE figured that people would engage in "voulentary payment" for a medics services, and thus we would be able to buy hides and resources, but that just isnt the case. Given the current situation, the most expediant way of taking care of our needs is to get Survey IV. The other route would be hitting a master level elite combat proffession, and trying to buy stuff that people dont usually sell.