Doctor Archive
Thread: In defense of force healing
Thing people keep doing is confusing too.
Doc's get stomped...so pick up a Defesive Profession, Same for healer.
A Master Doc / Master TK is similar to a Master Healer / Master Defender
Good Defense / healing capability, sorry offense. So then grab up a little Swordsman / Lightsaber to compensate. Not exact but similar.
If a non Jedi wants to heal, deal damage, and have defense they have to mix it like a jedi.
Though I still think breaking Lightsaber into the 3 different types would of made more sense, easier to have it shadow, but improve upon the exsisting melee types...buts thats really off topic.
No elite profession should be able to stand on it's own. But haveing mastered an elite profession shoulld definitly grant you a significant edge over dabblers.
Caelrie wrote:
Try looking through the skillboxes.
aabadon wrote:Yeah, we can Diagnose them to death... ¬¬'
Would u mind telling me those mysterious useful things we get???
I posted the skillboxes in the other post... now... WOULD YOU MIND TELLING ME EXACTLY WHAT CERTIFICATION / ABILITY WE GET TO ATTACK OTHER PEOPLE?? kthx
Caelrie wrote:
aabadon wrote:
hamhamthe3rd wrote:
i fought a guythat hadtkm tagbutwas using a mace from kashyyyk. mls/me/healer4040 so near to no defense. this guy was hitting me for over 1k points of damage, and those are the numbers that was being recorded from the combat log. it was shocking and he was the first and onlymeleeperson tohave done that to me,also all his hits were in that damage range so unless he used only specials against me, his normal attacksarepretty good too.
Yah, but WE ALL can get hit like that, i mean, jedi don't have a -200 defense modifier, so if we are hit like that would we get those 1500 helings too??
No, you don't all get hit like that. Even as a doctor you get a battle armor cert. EVERY combat profession has armor certs and defense mods in it. But in Jedi, only Defender does.
Battle Armor cert?? do u know we don't get full movement/accuraccy/rate of fire mitigation??? anyway, what can we do with that armor??? take of our helms and throw'em to other players???
Bringing the Armor cert is as lame as me bringin your LIGHTSABER CERTIFICATION, a cert that we docs don't get an it's OFFENSIVE.
although this was a group battle even if it wasnt i couldnt have hoped to beat him without being able to absorb the damage he was doing. in fact i didnt beat him and i was healing more times than i was able to attack him. in the end i was forced to root him and more away.rifleman and other ranged builds typically hit me for 700 avg and 1.5k with specials. fought one guy that was averaging 900-ish on his normal attacks with his carbine.
again, that happens to all, not only jedi, no point in this.
Again, no it doesn't.
As you told me... "REPORTED FOR TROLLING... if you are gonna quote me please answer anything useful, not just yes/no".
so while some may think force healing is too wonderful, it is wonderful for good reason. the fact is, it doesnt take 5 bhs to bring you down, it takes only one.
Oh my... stop using BH's as your excuse... want to counter BH's hunting you?? stay off the terms is better than healing i can swear it.
That doesn't help in the GCW, or when you DO get on the terms. Using your logic, we could say that Jedi don't need any combat abilities at all, right?
That's exactly my point... didn't you know thatnon-jedi participate in the GCW too??? using your logic we could say that we don't need any combat abilities too??
the offensives disciplines afford the jedi next to no defenses thus he must get his defenses from defender or healer. yes healer is a defensive tool allowing you to absorb a lot of damage so that you dont have to run away from every fight.
and aabadon, you dont seem to have much understanding of how jedi works.
actually i do, i even have a jedi.
No you don't.
Wow!! forgot to foresee that you have Jedi sighting powers that allows you to see if i have a jedi or not (or, better said, allows you to cancel my jedi account =S).
Ginx wrote:
Alright, first the 5 BH on 1 was just an example I was using. I did not intend to imply it was the one and only reason for having Force Healing.
aabadon wrote:
Ginx wrote:
I know alot of doc's believe that force healing is too over-poweredcompared to what Doctors can do.
We don't believe it... it IS overpowered.
Yes, and I agreed with that statement below.
finally we are getting to some point.
And yes it is, but for good reason.
Wanna hear this...
Unlike Doctor, Jedi is primarily a pvp profession (especially at Knight).
You are wrong. All combat professions are pvp professions.
Ture but... no other combat profession is perma overt or has to PvP to advance in the FRS. Jedi Knights are pretty much made soley for PvP as we dont have the skills points to dabble in non-combat professions.
Naaah... for that case, non-jedi NEED to pvp to advance in the factional ranks or even better to WIN THE GCW (yeah, that thingie that nobody remembers but it's ALL THIS GAME IS ABOUT). And a competitive PVP'er non-jedi neither has the skill points for dabbling a non-combat profession.
If we get attacked by 5 Bounty Hunters at once, were going to need an edge, those1500 heals, to even have a chance at staying alive.
Want a chance of staying alive???
DON'T GET YOURSELF ON TERMS
Knights too? If so thats not possible or very practical. Now that were forced to group hunt to get XP, it makes that task even moredifficultfor padawans not to get visability.
Naaah, not true... solo hunting is possible too, just don't get missions of creatures whose herd attacks too.
As a JK myself I can tell you when it comes right down to it, we are not all that powerful.
Without Force Healing we are pretty much on par withnon-Jedi combat professions.
Then Avoid Incap, Channel force, Saber throw, Saber dervish (deals more than 1k damage), Force Valor, Force Speed, Force Run 3 (can go faster than a swoop), Total Heal and force Cloak must be a product of my imagination.
I was referring to Jedi being on par with non-Jedi combat wise butlets Avoid Incap sucks up force power like theres no tomorrow, dervish is useless now, cant fight with Force Run 3 on, Total Heals also uses alot of force, Cloak is pretty much a novelty and useless. Valor is good, I'll give you that.
Ok, then we have Valor... and Aura??? Force Armor??? Force Sap?? Force Throw??? Force KD?? Intimidate?? Mind Blast (aka Docs death)?? force Shock?? Force Speed?? Channel Force followed of force Heal??
That may not seem like a big deal but considering we are the only profession with XP loss but with the largest XP grind from anyone, we should be entitled to "some" advantages.
MORE advantages???
If you think our advantages make us so powerful, I can point you out to a couple of TK and Swordsman who, 1 vs 1, will change your mind.
Bring'em... that way i can point you out to some Jedi who again will change your mind...
You can't judge everybody for "a couple" of TK or Swords
bottom line is that jedi will complain until even the most horrible jedi can easily beat a bh with no prob
most cant stand to loose is the bottom line
not every jedi is a good pvper
not every player is a good pvper
people need to realize that
buell
Message Edited by buellronin on 06-09-2005 05:49 PM
This is the Doctor forum and a discussion about healing. Go talk about bounty hunters on the bounty hunter forum.
buellronin wrote:
bottom line is that jedi will complain until even the most horrible jedi can easily beat a bh with no prob
most cant stand to loose is the bottom line
not every jedi is a good pvper
not every player is a good pvper
people need to realize that
Caelrie wrote:
This is the Doctor forum and a discussion about healing. Go talk about bounty hunters on the bounty hunter forum.
buellronin wrote:
bottom line is that jedi will complain until even the most horrible jedi can easily beat a bh with no prob
most cant stand to loose is the bottom line
not every jedi is a good pvper
not every player is a good pvper
people need to realize that
actually my post is related to teh strength of a jedi using heals vsstrenght of a player using heals with doc in their template
this thread has to do with jedi defending why their heals are better than ours ---
go put your little thing telling me what thread to post on the one about jedi defenders and whatnot
Caelrie wrote:
You get multiple heals, so you can't pretend that you can only heal once every 10 seconds.
1. Those "multiple heals" (read: 2) won't add up to 1500 at 4xxx. Not with the best enhancers, a 110-rating Medical Droid, and the best skill-enhancing clothing. Also, Improved Force Infusion is much better than Improved Bacta Infusion.
2. It takes more time to execute those "multiple heals" than it does to execute your single heal, so efficiency is much less for a 4xxx Doctor.
An argument you don't like and an argument that carries no weight aren't the same thing. Simple fact: doctors can do more things than force healers can.
I'm not talking about a full profession, I'm talking 4xxx, which is the source of much of the arguments against balance. Yes, you are correct, 4xxx Doctors get more "utility" than 4xxx Healers due to the Medic pre-requisites. However, it's a healing line, not a utility line or otherwise. So your argument holds weight, I take that back. Not enough weight to hold any kind of merit, but you can have it.
Skillpoints are only half of the equation. 4xxx Healer requires 180,000,000 weapons XP and 3,020,000 Jedi XP earned at 1/5th the rate of medical XP, so 15,100,000 more medical XP and did it while incurring possible XP loss. This is compared to a MASTER doctor requiring 6,208,300 medical XP.
Tell me why the force healer shouldn't heal for more, even if the utility of both professions was equal?
Why should you heal approximately 7 times more? Experience?That whichis a deterrent (albeit a failed one) to keep from having too many Jedi in the game? That argument, again, holds very little weight. You want to heal 1.5x better? Sure, take it. 7x? No amount of grinding can justify that.
Yes you do. They're called drinks/food/spices that increase your mind regen or pool amount. Mind regens infinitely faster than force does.
Further, while you can choose the semantic approach that my heals will always heal for their maximum, I can change that to say that they'll always heal for the minimum and be just as correct. Enhancers are a benefit, not a penalty. I can't enhance my heals like you can.
I'll concede that point, except you can't increase mind pool. Still, enhancers do not allow a 4xxx Doctor to even begin to help close the gap. Even having a 110 medical droid out, along with enhancers andskill enhancing clothing does not begin to close the gap as much as it should.
All of that is stuff that a 4xxx force healer doesn't get. And almost all of the penalties you mention go away if you master your profession, while the master force healer still doesn't get most of that stuff, despite spending more skillpoints and so much more XP and danger that it makes your grind look like an afternoon's vacation.
Again, Master Force Healer isn't the problem.I'm not talking master professions. I'm talking about dabbling. 4xxx Healer vs. 4xxx Doc is the problem. You don't spend more skillpoints to get 4xxx Healer, you don't lose out on anything worthwhile besides Wound Healing, and the Jedi grind is irrelevent. You grind to become 1.5x "better", not 7x.
I've answered it repeatedly. You just don't like the answer so you pretend it doesn't exist.
Obscure subjective conjecture and meandering between arguments of mastery and dabbling do not equate to an answer. I don't have to "like" or "dislike" an answer. I just don't see it.
The only possible answer I can gather by wading through your "answers" is that you think4xxx Healersdeserve to heal several-fold better than 4xxx Doctors because....you "had" to grind through the only deterrent left to keep Jedi from being more common than regular professions? Or was it because 4xxx Doctors can heal wounds? Because those are the only significant fundamental differences.
Sarren wrote:
1. Those "multiple heals" (read: 2) won't add up to 1500 at 4xxx. Not with the best enhancers, a 110-rating Medical Droid, and the best skill-enhancing clothing. Also, Improved Force Infusion is much better than Improved Bacta Infusion.
True.
2. It takes more time to execute those "multiple heals" than it does to execute your single heal, so efficiency is much less for a 4xxx Doctor.
Again, true, while we use 3 "turns" to heal for 700-600 points (even in Master Doctor), the 4-0-0-0 Force Healers use only 1.
I'm not talking about a full profession, I'm talking 4xxx, which is the source of much of the arguments against balance. Yes, you are correct, 4xxx Doctors get more "utility" than 4xxx Healers due to the Medic pre-requisites. However, it's a healing line, not a utility line or otherwise. So your argument holds weight, I take that back. Not enough weight to hold any kind of merit, but you can have it.
In 4-0-0-0 Doctor you don't get any other ability apart of healingbut stabilizers, Rate of Fire and Accuraccy hindrances (for armor) are still there, some skill mods for heling and that's all...
Caelrie wrote:
Skillpoints are only half of the equation. 4xxx Healer requires 180,000,000 weapons XP and 3,020,000 Jedi XP earned at 1/5th the rate of medical XP, so 15,100,000 more medical XP and did it while incurring possible XP loss. This is compared to a MASTER doctor requiring 6,208,300 medical XP.
Tell me why the force healer shouldn't heal for more, even if the utility of both professions was equal?
Aaaaawwww.... the typical crying of jedi: "we grind more, we D-E-S-E-R-V-E an -I WIN- button"
All of that is stuff that a 4xxx force healer doesn't get. And almost all of the penalties you mention go away if you master your profession, while the master force healer still doesn't get most of that stuff, despite spending more skillpoints and so much more XP and danger that it makes your grind look like an afternoon's vacation.
Want me to put the comparative table again??? Master Force Healer gets more skill mods and more versatile abilities than a Master Doctor.
And you use less skill points: Doctor 4000- 63 skill points... Force Healer 4000 - 52 skill points
Sarren wrote:
Obscure subjective conjecture and meandering between arguments of mastery and dabbling do not equate to an answer. I don't have to "like" or "dislike" an answer. I just don't see it.
Don't worry, you will never get to a point with Caelrie, even when you use facts and post them.
The only possible answer I can gather by wading through your "answers" is that you think4xxx Healersdeserve to heal several-fold better than 4xxx Doctors because....you "had" to grind through the only deterrent left to keep Jedi from being more common than regular professions? Or was it because 4xxx Doctors can heal wounds? Because those are the only significant fundamental differences.
I know i know!!! caelrie is jealous because we can diagnose!!!
Just make doc better not other professions worse.
Set aside your prejudices and hatred for a moment. Docs needs to be able to heal faster, better and not draw every bit of agro possible onto themselves. Doc wound healing needs to be on par with Jedi, period.
Everyone got a gigantic mother of all nerfs with combat upgrade, please stop asking for even more and try to get a once great profession back on it's feet.
Iago_C wrote:
Since I am neither a boy, nor immature enough to demand the griefing of other players, I guess that still is you.
no they can play their reg characters - i am not saying greif them-- i am saying play the game it is supposed to be hard for a paddi
No, you said, And I quote :they should hunt the padi till they get so discouraged that they do not grind jedi any longer. Which is griefing, pure and simple.
rofl ----a sad pathetic little boy --- i did not insult you so who is the really the sad pathetic little boy
buell
immature? you were teh one calling and i quote " a sad pathetic little boy"
i am done with thisthread now why dont you go back to your jedi forums
buell
Since I am neither a boy, nor immature enough to demand the griefing of other players, I guess that still is you.
no they can play their reg characters - i am not saying greif them-- i am saying play the game it is supposed to be hard for a paddi
No, you said, And I quote :they should hunt the padi till they get so discouraged that they do not grind jedi any longer. Which is griefing, pure and simple.
rofl ----a sad pathetic little boy --- i did not insult you so who is the really the sad pathetic little boy
buell
Instead of just nerfing force heal, would it be acceptable to make it a self-only heal and add a force heal other that was half the strength of the self only?
I think the big issue is that a jedi heals others more effectivly then a MD.
blacke wrote:
Caelrie, since you seem to be the most vocal defender here of force healing I'd like your answer to this.
Instead of just nerfing force heal, would it be acceptable to make it a self-only heal and add a force heal other that was half the strength of the self only?
I think the big issue is that a jedi heals others more effectivly then a MD.
I like that proposal. That way it satifies the jedi that claim they'd be useless without being able to uber heal themselves and it gives Docs back some dignity.