Doctor Archive

Ok then if u want class interdependence, then make it work both ways...

only medics can survey organics....anything that is currently used as an organic can only be surveyed by medics...

So all artisans that need organics must get medics...so chefs for food, and architects for their wood...

Class interdependence has to go both ways to be fair...otherwises it making one class a slave to another...so if we can only survey and sample floras, artisan survey only allowsinorganic survey...since inorganic survey is much larger than organic survey...

In fact lets go one further....harvesters are based on certs...so only medics can place flora and organic harvesters and only artisans can place inorganic harvesters...lets admit it if u wanna keep survey to artisans dont let anyone place harvesters...

so if u want class interdependence make it a equal relationship not one class having to rely on another while other class can do without the reliant partner...interdepence not co-dependency for the medic classes...

We rely on artisans crafters for enuff stuff as is...crafting terminals, crafting tools, weapons, buildings, armor, food....artisans rely on meds from us...

fair enuff...

now u say we have to rely on artisans for resources? where is the artisan's reliance on use for their resources...

Medical personel can't all bake a cake, or brew beer, what is your reason for having them depend on us, other than you think they should? Everyone already depends on us for heals, why should they depend on us for resources too? You argue that the dependence should work both ways, and I would argue that they do right now, except they are lop-sided. We depend far more are having artisan skills than artisans depend on us for heals. Is there a less extreme version of your plan that will balance the current dependency without tipping the scales too much in our favor?

On that note, I have to go to work, so I'll leave you to think of more options we can discuss and I'll do my best to do the same while pouring drinks.

Phionn

The inability to survey is what makes the medic class unnecessarily difficult to break in to. Crafting is core to being a medic or advanced medical professional, so it seems logical to allow them have at least a basic understanding of how the surveyor's tools work. The lowest range/resolution setting for artisen surveyors is hardly useful compared to the range/resolution settings enjoyed by survey specialists, so I dont think it would be overly threatening to their livelyhood to allow medics to have a slice of the pie.

Ironically enough, i just posted yesterday opposing an idea to allow non-medics to use stimpacks A, since healing is a medical profession ability and giving it to non medics could cheapen the class. This is exactly the same issue, only this time its in my best interest to allow medics to survey...so, perhaps we're not the right bunch if people to be asking

You can't use medicalforage as an example for anything.. it was put in as a quick fix in beta when med A's cost 3 (yes THREE) unmatched organics. They just never had the time to remove it as everything went crunch time. The origional intention is gone... stretching it to man something else is faulty logic...


One of the main parts of the problem is... that the system is designed around medics charging for their crafted goods/services... people. .these are often the same people that complain they can't get resources.

People currently mine minerals from weaponsmiths.. becasue they know weaponsmiths can pay.

They would mine materials for medics if medics could pay... the reason medics CAN'T pay is OTHER MEDICS.... there is not a resource shortage (units of resource per person total)... there is simply a shortage of materials we want... because there is no money in it.

My weponsmith can find nearly any metal he needs, rare or not.... thouugh if it hasn't spawned revcently.. it will be very expensive.


My doctor cannot... My doc makes money off of missions.. why? Free healers... the only money I make off of being a doc is buffs... and then people feel that if I'm a doc and in a group... they should be buffed for free... Why? because the last doc buffed them for free...

We cut our own throats moneywise... then cry that no one wants to sell us stuff...

This origional post isn't a compromise.. it is only a partial theft of skills. It ignores the main problem... we are trying to get around the system.

There is cross dependancy btw... green bar buffs sell like hotcakes to sampling artisans.


-T

Traigus,

I can't follow your reasoning on why you believe that the original post isn't a compromise. You have stated that you can't get resources, right? How would you suggest we get them? How would charging for our services increase the amount of resources that other people are will to get for us? I have never had any money troubles, but I still can't get people to pull the things I need, which you have also stated was a problem, correct? It's not that I can't afford them, just that no one has them. Why do you think miners don't see any money in it? The lack of medium/heavy harvesters could be a small piece. I see it more as an issue about how much we need of our materials compared to how much weaponsmiths need. When you do buy resources with both of your characters, who buys more, the weapon crafter or the medic? My brother sells resources to some of the server weaponsmiths, they all buy what they need in lots of about 50k at least, whereas I usually buy them in lots of 5k. So the miners on my server, at least, have a much better chance of selling their material and lots of it, if they cater to weapon and armorsmiths, not doctors. Does this appear the same to you? How are we cutting our own throats? By not charging? I can see why the lack of resource sellers inhibits our ability to do our job and have a good time, what I don't understand is why this is caused by us not charging for our services and not a lack of interest by potential sellers. Any help you can give would be appreciated.

What really annoys me about the whole situation isn't that we have to buy our resources, but of all the classes that had money troubles, and Traigus is right that we've shot ourselves in the foot on this one, medics were skipped over for their own mission terminals while ARTISANS have the most unholy exploitable cash cow since suicide runs on baz nitches.

I don't mind having to buy resources. I can accept that. I do mind that I can't afford to make it lucrative enough for most surveyors to grab the quality ingredients I need when they can sell any old crappy ore to an architect for an obscene profit. And if the architect needs a little extra cash to pay for the ore, they can now just spend an hour running 512 meters back and forth between artisan mission terminals and a decent resource pocket making 3600 credits a trip.

The answer is not to give medics more skills, especially not someone elses skills, its to give medics a reliable way to support the things they need from other classes.

As a side note, organic resources would probably be a little easier to come by if architects could actually make the medium and large flora harvesters. The lack of those artificially inflates the cost per unit of organics over every other resource and as the chief consumer of those resources (there just aren't as many chefs), we're the ones who suffer.

Gallion,

I think I understand your point, but just to be clear let me try to restate it. You believe that medics can't make enough money to support the surveyors who would go get our resources for us, correct? What I don't follow is why you believe this. There are plenty of medics running around my server with tons of cash. Granted this could be my server only, but we have never had enough suppliers. I have always had the money to pay 10-15 credits a unit for the good stuff if I have to, yet there are still no people running around collecting resources for me, like the weaponsmiths etc...

Here is one answer to that question:Many of the medics I come acrosscan afford the resources we need, sothe problem is not cash flow. It's the quantities we need them in that causes the lack of supply. Miners have a larger profit margin when they pull whatever it is they want to pull in bulk. So, a smaller operation would do better pulling 50K steel than 5K with harvestors. So when faced with the choice of pulling up 50K titanium aluminium or 50K tatooian fiberplast they have to look at whether or not they can actually sell what the pull up, otherwise it is worthless. Now maybe you have met a doctor buying fiberplast in 50K lots, but I certainly haven't, because we simply don't need that much fiberplast. Who needs to make 3500 Stimpack Ds? Withthe quality I can make them that would literally last methe better part of a decade. Whereas some of the weaponsmiths on my server will blow through 50K aluminum in a matter of a week.

So let me ramble off a list of options I have come up with, for further inspection:

(1) Increase our resource needs by either

(a) increasing the demand for our products

(b) increasing the amount needed in each product (this would have to be balanced with a way for medics to make money)

(2) Decreasing our resource needs such that when we can find the resources we need they will sustain us for a longer period. I suppose this one could be answered with medics buying their resources in huge bulk now, but as soon as we all have what we need, why is anyone going to supply a community that won't need them next week?

(3) Allow us to get our own resources, either everything we need, or some. I am well aware that some see this as "stealing" skills from artisans, but bare with me here. Additionally, if they aren't selling us resources, what are we taking from them? For those of you who object to giving medics some artisan skills, why is this such a bad idea? What do you suggest are our alternatives?

This thread has need a great sounding board for ideas on solutions for this problem, and I can only see the ideas getting better so long as everyone keeps an open mind and offers solutions based on the interests of everyone involved. Some of these ideas may also seem a little weak, but they are not necessarily solutions on their own, but rather, ways to get to a better solution.

Phionn

just split up resource gathering...

only medics can get organics...

artisans inorganics

scout harvest...

enough of this 1/2 a$$ed class dependance crap....make it all dependant or no one on anyone else...

for that matter make it so that harvesters use certs to place...

see how u like that everyone....cuz thats how medics feel....

I don't think it is a compromise, becasue you are mixing 2 different questions.. they are not interchangeable.


A compromise is the middle ground between 2 prferences.


One side is that we should buy materials from others.... the other is we should be able to get them ousrselves.


Your answer is partal /survey and /sample by material... that isn't a compromise of the base issue. It is a toned down version of a very specific solution (give us all of /survey and /sample) which is only 1 side of the arguument, and only one possible solution on that side..

It doesn't address the actual question, it is only an attempt to make a very limited (in this case 1) possible solution more palatable through the illusion of fairness.

To draw a comparison. I have a choice.. I can walk someplace or I can use transportation... a compromise is not to "use a car"... because it is fundimenally part of the transportation side of the argument, and leaves out all the other transporetation option to boot. The "use a car" argument seems obvoius... it is the most common form of transit in most places near where I live now... but in NYC.. using the Subway may be more practical... the most common or popular limited solution, is not always aplicable or centered on the topic.

The solution posted is not a compromise at all... it is only a partisan solution presented in a more fair light... it is the illusion of the middle... while being very definitely anchored directly in a very far point on one side of the argument (we must get the stuff ourselves)... it rules out other ways to get materials... and anchors it in the "we meust get stuff ourselves only through /survey and /sample or a subset thereof" paradigm without giving a chance to other ways for us to get materials ourselves...


I dunno if it was done this way on purpose... or if the author just misdiagnosed the problem as "where is the middle ground between now and full /survey and /sample?"... which is a far too limited question to accurately represent the "big picture" as it were, of the ptroblem we face.

Ugh.. that reads like insurance documentation...


-=T

Traigus is right that /medicalforage is something of a poor example, but only in that it was a kludge used in Beta, that was made utterly useless a week after it's creation.

However, the REASONS for /medicalforage are extremely relavent to this thread. They resons we brought about in Beta that gave is that command in the first place were because we flat pointed out that the class was not even remotely capable of sustaining itself enough, without being required to take Artisan, to progess in the profession. We found a level of agreement there. The Devs presumably conceeded that it would be more ejoyable and balancing in the game if Medics also had at least the beginnings of the tools they would need to suceed in that profession, just like every other starting profession was capable of (and yes, I am fully aware of how taking Marksaman in some people's view is absolutely essential to succeeeding as a Scout, I simply disagree with their conclusion and was successful as a Scout inBeta without itand soI stand by my remarks here.)

I submit that because of the many factors we have gone over so very many times, even in this very thread, that most Medical Porfessionals simply do NOT have those basic tools at thier disposal and that you see this topic crop up so darned often because so many people really do find this to be a major hindrance and a very UNfun part of the profession.

I still think we need cleared Dev guidance on the issue, but in my own opinion the proposed compromise here simply doesn't cut it, for many of the reasons Elenora has stated. Artisan dependence on the Medic classes or skills is virtually non-existant (and I consider Buffs a luxury for an artisan as is healing since it can be done automatically we just save them time if they get hurt and they usually don't get hurt while doing Artisan things, while resources are a necessity for us. Yes, a necessity.)

This leaves a major imbalance on the dependence of the professions. We NEED them, or their skills at least. They only find us useful if the right situation arises.

For me it is one thing to be dependent on artisans for "things" and for providing us with merchants to sell what few goods we can sell publically. These things are mostly luxuries for us. I don't NEED to sell Stim Bs. I sure do need to make them, though. (Or their equivalent, since I mostly use Es these days.)

Do I think Docs should compete against Artisans in being able to sample and sell resources as well as they can? No.

I do think we need to have some way to provide some of our own needs, however.

Traigus mentioned that it was the Medic classes themselves who were hurting our own ability to obtain resources at resonable prices, simply because the altruistic role-players are out healing and buffing for free, screwing up the medic economy for those who want to make a profit from it. The problem there is that we are talking about player attitudes. We can't change game code to change what people find ifs fun for them. If you FORCE payment to be made for healing that would rectify the problem, but then you would alienate the entire subset of altruistic players that want the option to heal for free. I don't think that would be awise move, IHMO.

So we must look back at ways around that. Game code ways. What would make this more enjoyable for the medic classes? The ability to have some self-sufficiency in grabbing the resources we need. Or the ability to consolidate resources so that we need the same ones the artisans need so we know there will be a steady supply of those resources, except that we get screwed again by the money issue knowing that an artisan will almost always economically squeeze out the medic from getting those resources at any kind of reasonable rate.

So either we need a completely seperate set of resources (Holo's original ideas in that old thread we've seen here suggest something of that nature, but that later falls to the wayside so at Doc levels we are back to relying on Artisans again or getting surveying ourselves) or we need to be able to have the tools to let us get those resources but in a way that does not allow us to easily compete with artisans.

Going only part of the way as suggested in the initial post does not seem to solve that problem. We really do need some method of at least taking a look at the resource (because our schematic requirements are so different from everyone else's) and then have a way to know where to place the tools we need to obtain that resource. That tool is the harvesters that anyone int he game can use, but that we are currently relying on artisans to find waypoints for us for. But the artisans are not providing us waypoints, generally speaking (I don't think you'd see the complaints here if they were, even if YOU have artisan friends or PA-mates that are providing you with those needs. Think of the greater pool of folks here and realize that not all are in your rather lucky shoes.)

Personally I still think the standard use of survey tools, perhaps at a reduced range from the artisan abilities, along with the gimped ability to only sample, at MOST, 1 resource per sampling tick (crit failures would STILL occur preventing the gathering of ANY samples in a given tick) would provide the kind of solution that is needed. I don't think it's "lazy" to do it that way, I think it's realistic and doable.

BTW, on the concept that giving everyone the ability to use Stim As (presuming it was not based on the /heald command, of course) is "stealing" from our profession.... I'm all for making A's publically available. It's on thing to argue against making the /heald command avalable to all professions, it's quite another to make a Stim Aequivalent usable by all other professions andI think it is a needed option to help provide a monetary route for newer Medics by giving them more of a market to sell to. Whereas I also don't think we should just get /survey and /sample, but medical equivilents to those commands that are similarly reduced in ability to match our needs for those tools.

Oh, and BTW, don't think that just because one class has a skill that it is somehow exclusive to that class. Take Terrain Negotiation, for example. Master Combat Medics get what amounts to the Scout Exploration skill at level 1. Squad Leaders get the ability to give that skill to everyone who happens to be in their group. Or take the BE Pet Stim as another example.

Skills are not strictly exclusive in and of themselves, and the Devs have been known to mix and match skills to achieve a desired effect. Exclusivity is not what any particular profession is about, necessarily, but differentiation would be.

Terrain negotiation is a very poor example.. it isn't a / skill.

It is the equiv of +pistol speed, and many advanced professions can get that.

... A lot of this is wheel spinning... a nice dev post on all 3 medic top 5's would help out a lot in the speccign out of our future... =/

Almsot 2 weeks now since they started responding... still ntohing for us... and I doubt we'll get a post on the weekends.. weekends have been dev scarce for a month now...

..sigh...

-T

Actually it is exactly the example I wanted, precisely because it isn't a /skill. Just like I don't think we should get /sample, /survey, but some other equivilent commands.

But yeah, we were always the afterthought for the Devs in Beta, too.

Are we getting cynical or what?