Doctor Archive
Thread: New Innoculations and Area-Cures on test-center. they work!
yebach
Fri Jul 30, 2004 2:49 pm
#14
hawkes37 wrote:
Here's a thought. Instead of CM's whining and complaining about us doc's getting something that we can use effectively in combat; and before, to aid our comrades (instead of running around trying to heal only to find that "your target is out of range to preform this action" all you CM's should be glad. Why, Well two reasons.You will have to be more tactical and not just spam the poison/disease attacks.
As opposed to us Docs spamming AE cures? yah right
This should make thegame a little more challenging for you. And two, that they haven't n**fed your whole profession like so many have call for. Seems like a fair trade off to me. I'm sure they will tweak it eventually so that all's fair in love and war, so give it a few and see what happens instead of tearing it apart before all of us get to to see how it works.
So far the testing has shown that the heals are clearly unbalanced. CMs have every right to complain about these changes as they make their profession useless.
Speaking as a Master Doctor I must say not only am I disgusted with the way these changes are being implemented but also the elitist attitudes of my fellow Doctors on this forum. Changes needed to be made but the DEVs went overboard and are practically killing the CM profession.
ka12345
Fri Jul 30, 2004 5:05 pm
#15
The testing resultsdon't seem to add up...a little too screwy to blame on random variation. The innoculation potency exceeds thepoison potency by 55. If innoculations work the way they are described in the patch notes (an absolute reduction in potency by the innoculation strength), then the potency should have been reduced to -55%. The patch notes also state that potency is hard capped (after all mods) to a maximum of 95% and a minimum of 5%. So in this case it should default to the 5% minimum.
Now my probability theory is a little rusty, but the way I calculated it, the chance of getting 6 or more poisons to stick out of 20 throws, when the chance of any particular poison sticking is 5%, comes out to .06%. That's about a 1 in 2000 chance that potency works in the obvious way (that is, a single percentile roll made against a modified potency value that is hard capped in a range of 5-95%).
The results seem much more in line with a combat-roll type of scenario, where a one roll is made and added to the potency mod, and another roll is made and added to the resist mod, the higher of the two totals determines whether it sticks or not. A mechanism ensuring that at least 5% and less than 95% stick is a lot more cryptic in this system, but it can be done.
It will takeA LOT of testing to determine if this is really the system they put in place, but it does seem natural that they would transplant the combat calc system to CM, replacing the accuracy mod with potency and the ranged/melee defense mod with poison/disease resist. If this is really the case, then CM's have at least some hope that they haven't been nerfed into oblivion.
The best preliminary test I can suggest is to do another trial with poison potency approximately equal to innoculation strength. If it's really on a to-hit roll vs.save roll system, then in a 100 throw trial there is a 95% chance that between 40 and 60 will stick.
hawkes37
Fri Jul 30, 2004 6:31 pm
#16
In response to 'Yebachs comment on us spamming, I am not sure about this or if it is just me, but in a fight Ireally cannotspam anything. Be it heals, cures or combat commands; balancing thecuring of Disease and Poison; Blind, Intimidate, Stun andDizzy States; healing damage, tending wounds and rezzing is constant, challenging and for me at least, spam prohibitive.With that said,I do notthink that spamming will be a part of these AE cures.
I do agree that yes, at the current time, there is a severe balancing that needs to be achieved. Working closely with CM's in my town and guild is a blast and I do not want to see them become obsolete and am dismayed by the changes that adversely affect them a great deal. They are to valuable for this to happen. However, even my CM friends have admitted on several occasions that they are too powerful in combat at times.
Alas, the old elitist comment. I do not post oftenhowever I do a great deal of reading in the forums. I believe that the elitist sentiment can be said about and has been said about every profession in the game. This is not meant as an afront toall or any single professions, just an observation from my time spent reading. I do not see myself or others as elitists. What I like to think I see, no matter what profession, is people being excited about their professions and changes to them. In every case, comments such as these have been brought about by changes that affect an opposing or related profession and unforunatelyare unavoidable. Changes are eventually made (even if they take a great deal of time) and the balance is usually restored.
If this is disgusting to some, then I am sorry.
Nyghoma
Fri Jul 30, 2004 6:46 pm
#17
yebach wrote:
hawkes37 wrote:
Here's a thought. Instead of CM's whining and complaining about us doc's getting something that we can use effectively in combat; and before, to aid our comrades (instead of running around trying to heal only to find that "your target is out of range to preform this action" all you CM's should be glad. Why, Well two reasons.You will have to be more tactical and not just spam the poison/disease attacks.
As opposed to us Docs spamming AE cures? yah right
This should make thegame a little more challenging for you. And two, that they haven't n**fed your whole profession like so many have call for. Seems like a fair trade off to me. I'm sure they will tweak it eventually so that all's fair in love and war, so give it a few and see what happens instead of tearing it apart before all of us get to to see how it works.
So far the testing has shown that the heals are clearly unbalanced. CMs have every right to complain about these changes as they make their profession useless.
Speaking as a Master Doctor I must say not only am I disgusted with the way these changes are being implemented but also the elitist attitudes of my fellow Doctors on this forum. Changes needed to be made but the DEVs went overboard and are practically killing the CM profession.
Awwwww, the poor cm's won't be able tostack a 1000 tick mind poison/disease that bypasses all forms of defense and armor from 80 meters away that has an area effect on its victims anymore........man those poor guys have it sooooo bad. /sarcasm off
yebach
Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:12 pm
#18
hawkes37 wrote:
In response to 'Yebachs comment on us spamming, I am not sure about this or if it is just me, but in a fight Ireally cannotspam anything. Be it heals, cures or combat commands; balancing thecuring of Disease and Poison; Blind, Intimidate, Stun andDizzy States; healing damage, tending wounds and rezzing is constant, challenging and for me at least, spam prohibitive.With that said,I do notthink that spamming will be a part of these AE cures.
You are probably not aware I assume that there is currently an issue with heal delay that allows any healer not matter what their level to spam any type of heal with zero delay. Even without it a player can use Havla and cure a large group within 19m range using an AE Cure A pack. That's right the nastiest AE venom class poisons can be cured by some fool spamming an AE A cure pack. That is not balance.
I do agree that yes, at the current time, there is a severe balancing that needs to be achieved. Working closely with CM's in my town and guild is a blast and I do not want to see them become obsolete and am dismayed by the changes that adversely affect them a great deal. They are to valuable for this to happen. However, even my CM friends have admitted on several occasions that they are too powerful in combat at times.
I admit changes needed to be made but this type of implementation is stupid. The DEVs did not even inform the CMs correspondent on this. All I am seeing is that Jedi complained and they got what they wanted.
Alas, the old elitist comment. I do not post oftenhowever I do a great deal of reading in the forums. I believe that the elitist sentiment can be said about and has been said about every profession in the game. This is not meant as an afront toall or any single professions, just an observation from my time spent reading. I do not see myself or others as elitists. What I like to think I see, no matter what profession, is people being excited about their professions and changes to them. In every case, comments such as these have been brought about by changes that affect an opposing or related profession and unforunatelyare unavoidable. Changes are eventually made (even if they take a great deal of time) and the balance is usually restored.
As long as I keep seeing comments from my peers on how "CMs = pwnt" "CMs need to call the waaambulance" "CMs got what the **edit** ing deserved" etc then I maintain my opinion that my fellow Doctors are being elitists. You all are have the oportunity to do the right thing and not let the DEVs destroy the CM profession. But you would rather flame any CM that comes to the boards and posts their opinion on the matter. Like I said before, speaking as a Master Doctor myself I am disgusted with all of you.
hawkes37
Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:33 pm
#19
Your right 'Yebach, I wasn't aware of the delay issue. I do find it oddthat just last night while a jaunt into theGeo Caves,I had a delay on states, cures and healsthrough the combat queue when combined with my combat commands. But of course that may be because I guess I just didn't know what I was doing or the fact that my mates were busy defending me while I ran around healing them. As for the AE Cure A's, I had heard something of this but choose not to take advantage of it. Not something I'm supposed to do so I just stay away from it.
And I do agree with you in respect to the implementation. I believe I read some decent and possible ideas regarding what cures and innoculations in another thread you are opinionating on. As for Jedi complaining, they aren't the only ones.
I won't pursue you further on the elitist comments after this. Not worth my time anymore. I have said my piece. If we all disgust you so much, move to another profession. That would show that you are a better person than all of your disgustingly elitist fellow doctors.
hawkes37
Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:11 am
#20
Here's a thought. Instead of CM's whining and complaining about us doc's getting something that we can use effectively in combat; and before, to aid our comrades (instead of running around trying to heal only to find that "your target is out of range to preform this action" all you CM's should be glad. Why, Well two reasons.You will have to be more tactical and not just spam the poison/disease attacks.This should make thegame a little more challenging for you. And two, that they haven't n**fed your whole profession like so many have call for. Seems like a fair trade off to me. I'm sure they will tweak it eventually so that all's fair in love and war, so give it a few and see what happens instead of tearing it apart before all of us get to to see how it works.
Eikmms
Sat Jul 31, 2004 8:00 am
#21
As I was reading about this, I saw both sides of the argument. I thiught well this sucks for CMs and why should Doc's get this when they have that. Mind you allI'm a rifleman/CH so it doesn't effect me all that much. My brother, however, is a CM and a Doc. When I spoke to him about this he was happy. Why? Some may ask, because he said, "Cool, I can heal more suff". he told he bacame a CM to be a Better Medic, not a poison throwing machine anyway. He actully made me feel better about this all. His favorite pastime while playing is to go to Dath and Form a non-solo group so he can keep those new folks up and running. Now those AOE poison/Disease things will be one more tool against those nasty rancor diseases.
All in all he shed a little positive light on it all for me.....
SpaceLordse
Sat Jul 31, 2004 4:34 pm
#22
I think that CM's should have poison/disease removed completly. They should be a support class and get the area cures that doc's seem to be getting. I think that it's a joke that the devs haven't been able to balance this game and it's been out for over a year, it still feels like we are paying a monthly fee to beta test it.
Just my 2 cents
Chianti
Sat Jul 31, 2004 5:44 pm
#23
KnightHawk420 wrote:
Chianti wrote:
wow thats pretty insane. C's will make people virtually immune.
I'm really happy, but if these stats are correct, then its TOO harsh of a nerf.
Somebody is gonna have to rethink base defense a little perhaps.......
rofl @ this comment coming from SHDWS. I think your entire guild is going to have to rethink its current strategy 
Basically every base on the server is going to fall, because basically every base on the server has always been saved by combat medics.
Kavedawg
Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:50 pm
#24
ok, here's how I understand poisons and cures to work
Poisons have a base effectivness rating when crafted and this base number is modified by the CM skills as they progress up the tree for actual damage a target will recieve by the poison.
Cures have an effectivness rating that negates the base effectivness rating of a poison (not the actual damage tick) that a player may have applied to them
So if I am right, if a player was hit with a poison that had a value of 300 for its base effectivness, a cure with a base effectivness of 300 would completly cancle it out in one shot.
My problem is that of all the poisons I made while I was a CM, I rarely was able to make an AREA poison with an effectivness of 300+ using ADVANCED COMPONENTS which required six months of resource shifts to gather. These area poisons would have a maximum area around 32m
now there are area cures and the LOWEST class can cancle out 66% of the effectivness of a CM's highest class AREA poison. Also the LOWEST class area cure can be made entirely with resources found in every shift (except the CM component which many doctors are fighting) and this LOWEST class area cure effects about a 20m area.
add the fact that a doctor CAN use the same cure class on a single target repeatedly to acheive an increase to the effectivness of the cure. CM's do not have this ability, if a CM were to apply the same type and class of poison to a target, the CM does not acheive an increase to poison effectivness and no additional poison damage will be taken by a target.
My point?
One doctor can negate 100% of the damagefrom 1 to 1000 CM's throwing area poisons with only an AREA CURE A pack. All the doctor would need to do is have a good mind buff and apply the area cure every 4 to 6 seconds, I seriously doubt there would be a damage tick.
Effective counter? more like over effective in my view
SpaceLordse
Sun Aug 01, 2004 1:36 am
#25
Well maybe they should rethink the whole CM offense, especially with the area effect. I mean I think that maybe instead of having über docs negating the area effect should effect everybody in the radius, friend enemy and innocent bystanders. Then we could have bountys on combat medics from pissed off ppl who got to be collateral dmg (NPC fake bountys of course), that would give the BH's something to do and keep the CM from using to much area stuff.
Second thing is I think that a full set of comp armor should have a 100% protection against disease/poison. The way I see it is that a comp armor is a self contained system and therefor should not be exposed to CM, much like todays tanks and armored vehicles are ABC protected. This would of course only apply to players wearing a complete set, some species can't as we all know. I don't know the whole story behind comp in the SW Universe so this is just some thoughts I had from looking at it, so I might be wrong but to me it looks like a walking tank armor.
I just think that the devs could be a bit more creative with how they negate a certain class which is unbalanced.
hawkes37
Sun Aug 01, 2004 4:36 am
#26
An interesting idea Space. If we do think in terms of how a biological agent works irl, everyone is affected in a general area.Bio's areindescriminate killers. That's where the Innoc's would come in handy for the docs. Don't think we need bounties on our CM's though. They are already targets in combat as it is. It would be just more incentive to take them out sooner rather than later. Course this means that the major traffic points such as CNet and Theed would be empty from all the people not showing up to hock their wares for fear they would get hit by AE's when a battle errupts between the factions.
While Comp is supposed to be self-contained and I agree its an idea that sounds good in theory but I just don't think its fair to the species who can't wear a full set.
If there is one thing that I think we all can agree on is that the balance needs to be struck in the effectiveness department. I'm not gonna lie and say that I am not happy about getting AE Cures. Do I think that it's fair to CM's?Perhaps not but that's the decision that has been made for us. To be honest, if we just ended up getting the Innoc Packs to go with the buffs I would be happy. As long as the AE Cures aren't as outrageously effective as they sound like they are, I can deal with it. I don't want to negate my own CM pals effectiveness. Wouldn't make sense for me or any of us to want that. Do I think they the AE Cures should belong to CM's? Makes sense when ya think about it yeah. Course I always thought that the CM's should have the title of Master BioWarfare Specialist as well. They are more an offensive weapon as the template currently stands. All the combat medics irl that I have known or have read of, never threw bio weapons at their enemies, just healed there comrades and saved lives under fire.
Ooooohhh, an idea just popped. How bout this. Create a new Prof. One that deals only in Bio Weapons and their offensive dispersal and use. No healing ofany sort. Then make CM a true CM. Give them the full on spread of Ranged Healing. Leave Doc as it stands now. That way you would have those that want to throw their poison/disease and whatever else they can come up with and you would have the CM that would be true to the name and a compliment in battle to the Bio Weapons Spec. Doc's can continue to do what we do now, prepare our troops for battle and provide what offensive support we can when forced to.
Bah! That's asking too much though. Oh well.