Doctor Archive

AmI reading this right?

You are saying it took 2 of those C cures, using pretty good resources and advanced components, 2 tries to cure any of those C poisons?

I thought the complaint from CMs was that Doc Cures would be too powerful now?

Now I'm completely confused.

i'm reposting this from my reply on the CM forum

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I'd defniitely agree with Tsu here, but this is really the larger issue of imbedding advanced subs in low end medic/doc/cm components. The advanced subs are creating massive overlap between the class-packs without changes in med use, which is a problem.

I'd say the B is slightly overpowered and the A pack is woefully overpowered. IfI read these results correctly an advanced A-pack removed over halfthe damage on a top of the line C pack in one application. That's just silly. There's really no difference at all between the A and B pack, and what's effectively happening here is giving a 3X00 doc the ability to purchase the majority of the skill of a master doc in terms of cures.

The revenue issues of uber stimB sales notwithstanding, the time is coming soon when we must face that issue of either caps on A and B-class products (even with advanced subs) or that the inclusion of advanced-subs increases med use requirements (say +10 for each component used)up to but not over 90 (until they fix our cm use).

These cure poisons sell for what 1500 a piece? That's a small price to pay periodically to avert half of the doc tree and push skill points in other combat areas.

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I know there's plenty of docs in this forum that make money selling stims....I'm not against the practice of selling stims but i'd really like to open an objective discussion about the ability to use advanced subs in various A and B packs to operate at near C level effectiveness...and keep the flames to a minimum.

Jacore, MD/MCM, Tempest

The standards are set on base components.

IMO:

Advanced components are just that, and are not always available on all servers at all times.

The risk / time involved with getting said ADV. component materials makes up for their power. Not everyone has a complete set all the time, or even has access to 1 ADV. component.

Also remember P v. E There are probably mobs that have stuff far worse than CM's... and SWG is balanced P v. E first.

-T

Traigus,

I understand and accept what you're saying about the advanced components, and even the PvE first. But don't issues of balance have to be done in the long run mindset, where issues of temporary scarcity of materials for advanced componentsare no longer an issue?

Yes that exists now in some places (Dolovite has been very scarce until now on Tempest), but surely that can't hold forever as people stockpile 100k+ of a material when its shows up.

In my mind it's not the scarcity that's the issue but the ability to include them with no effect on med use that basically let's people buy packs higher than their med use would otherwise allow. That isn't to say they should not be allowed at all...they should and should provide an improvement over the base amount. But is the marginal difference between the A and B cure here appropriate? I can't believe that it is.

It's a byproduct of the fact that the base healing of the A pack (and even B to some extent) is so low in comparison to the marginal benefit of both the advanced subcomponents and the skill of the master crafter making them that you wind up with very little difference.

Jacore

Zarlor, did you see the results when i used A and B cure poisons also? Almost exactly the same as the most powerful C cure I could make.

What we discussed before in the last cure thread has come true.

a dabbler using an A pack (53 med use) crafted by me could cure my poisons with the exact same effect as ifI did it with a C pack (97 med use).

If you want to see an example of this, feel free to create a avatar on sunrunner, i'll pay your way to my lab and be more than happy to demonstrate this.

Hi, decided to do some extensive testing after this patch, here are the results. (Thanks Sengran for assisting me)

I made the following cure poison packs, using an 184 adv Liq sus, and a 13charge/16 power ABEC.

resources used were 996 OQ 487 PE flowers, 990OQ inert gas.

C pack experimented to 54% single mind - 2 uses single health - 2 uses mind aoe - 1 use to cure

C pack experimented to 80% same as abovereduced 1st tick to 119

C pack experimented to 21% same as above reduced 1st tick to 157

B pack experimented to 80% same as above reduced 1st tick to 164

A pack experimented to 80% same as above reduced 1st tick to 175

poisons used for the test.

C single mind poison - ticked at 545 dmg

C single health poison - ticked at 499 dmg

C AOE mind poison - ticked at 380 dmg

i tried 1 disease,effect 87, with a 71% experimented cure disease C - cured it in one use

Thought and opinions?

I agree, i would much rather have them set hard values on the cures vs poisons to go from pack type rather than poison/disease damage. IE no experimentation possible (except ease of use) on a cure pack at all, even charges. and they would clear a poison of the similar level in 1 shot. no matter the amount of damge be it 1 or 1000 per tick. I would be more than happy with this. I have to look at this from both the doc and the cm side of things since I play both classes. However, to be fair, this would also go for B to B and A to A. and a lower type pack would not be able to touch a higher level one. Im sure this would cause some coding problems or something though to be honest. And as it currently stands we are going to have to wait to see how the ARC fits into this equation also.

Well you DO have to also consider that there are MOBs out there that poison for 300+ a tick as well and those are some kind of experimented poison or poion level pack involved. So those would have to have that kind of thing added on to all of them.

And there really needs to be a way for an A level pack to do womething about it, because the Doc jut working their way up still needs to be able to do SOMETHING for a cure, even if it takes a few charge to do it. So ly allowing a like or higher cure to even affect a poison might be a bit too much, IMHO.

I don't know that I'm advocating a no variability/ no experimentation approach Mraugh, but some kind of cap needs to be in place.

I'madvocatinga kind of effectiveness cap like I the one I think I found on CM Dispersal Mechs in that long range poison post.

For instance, the internal effectiveness of a cure Poison A can neverexceed 80 base cure, regardless of remaining exp points, resources, or subcomponents, stations, tools or skill mods. There just a limit as to how far you can ratchet up a cureA. And let's say that the cureB has a base cap of 150. There is no cap on cureC.

What you've effectively done is said against a 600 tick MCM poison, even if wielded by a MD, you will be at least 2 shot with a cure B and at least 3 shot with a cure A, maybe more. If you use a CureC, 1 shot. If you're not an MD, it's gonna take more. Both of these are reasonable assumptions. A novice doc, with A or B pack cures should not have an easy time wiping off a 600 tick MCM poison. Yet a MD with similar quality should rest assured that they can 1 shot heal in almost all cases.

Same for diseases.

Now Zarlor raises intersting points about mobs, but I wonder how often a Novice doc who has the ablity to cure poison 3XXX will be encountering 300+ poison mobs. Maybe, maybe not. They should have a shot, and I htink the above proposition gives them that. It should be painful with cureA, and reasonable with cureB. I think this does that. But a dabbling doc shouldn't 1 shot cure a MCM in most cases.

What the exact levels are here I'm not sure. I think you have to look at what's a reasonable template for an aspiring doc against one for an aspiring cm and set that cap appropriately, factoring in the med use/effectiveness multiplier they'll have. But i think 80 for As and 150 for Bs is fiarly well in the ballpark.

I'm certain the CM community would like to see a proposal such as this...while at the same time some Docs migth not like it. I think in and of itself it's good and balanced. But this migth need to be bundled with point blank multi-cure (aoe) for docs. If we address one side of the coin (1 cure = 1 poison, all else equal) it's reasonable to think we need to look at the other side: 1 cm aoe poison pack at 8 sec delay = n doc cure packs each at 3? sec delay (not sure on the delay). There is I thihk a reasonable case to be made for point blank AOE doc cures with a non-experimentable/modifable radius of 6m, which is their current radius. Just make a pack that will attempt to heal all within that radius. Docs mustration exp points between resist rates and potency, same as CM. You preserve range uniqueness of CM, and give docs multiple cures with the reaonable penalty that the afflicted partymust regroup around the doc. There's other points i've brought up about this before, but it's something to consider.

If we could find such caps on cures palatable, we must at least consider placing them, if not now, then later, on stims as well. The underlying mechanical problem is the same.

Jacore

I agree with you Jacore, they need to put some caps into place for stim's and cure's based on their level (A, B, etc.). I'd also like to see the area cures, since that would be the only appropriate counter toAE poison.

I'm also for them adding a bundledheal wounds that wouldheal wound damage toall 6 physical attributes and maybe only usable by MD. Maybe it could even take up to 6 separate wound packs ( 1 for each stat ) and combine them. So one could use Bs for health and action and As for the other 4 stats to make a combined wound pack that would heal wounds (at B level for health and action and A level for the other 4 stats) in 1 shot. This could be applied to enhance stat packs as well. This would take a lot of the tedium out of healing wounds and speed up enhancing stats while not making doctor's any more powerful. Both of these options could be limited to MD to give more incentive to master the profession.

Throughly chewed and ready to comment.

Cure poisons reduce the tick rate rather than actually -cure- the poison. So, we are looking a difficult to balence arms race. I really wish SOE would have designed the cure as binary solution.

Problems with the reduce cure rather than binary:

If I pump someone with a juiced Cure-C and it does not reduce the "tick rate" to zero why should I blow another 150mind on yet cure when they could be repoisoned. Just let the crippled poison tick away to protect the victum.

AOE's:

Only CM's have an AOE mind attack. Unless there is a spiffy modifer added to the base reduction the AOE is unstoppable.

Cure A's, B's OverPowered?

To determine this you need to hand the same Pack over to a Non-Master doc to check differences. It could very well be that your Wound Treatment skill heavily weights the final results. If not, Yikes.

In conclussion:

I'm going to run out and make the best cure poison C's I possible can and only apply them once to each victum.

Z, my bad i wasnt considering mob poisons and disease, i have not encoutered any mob in the game that diseases/poisons that i could not clear it with 1 application using a bad-mediocre kit (experimentaion around 30-40%) even giant dune kimos, mereks, mantigures, all of those, never had a problem (pre - patch). PvE poison and disease is alot easier to manage also simply for the fact that you are fighting an AI driven entity. It may very well be that the advanced subs are dictating how this is being affected.