Doctor Archive

Thread: Enhance D crafting formulas

Happymob
Mon Jun 07, 2004 6:06 am
#1




I wanted to answer the question "what is avian really worth?" from the actual effect side rather than the financial side. To do this, I need to figure out how enhance crafting really worked. After several tests, here are my conclusions (a lot of this was already known and public, but I'll repeat it for anyone not familiar with buff crafting):


Charges:


The effective charge formula is (Avian OQ + Gas OQ + 0)/3. This is gated to 66.67% since neither resource has UT.


Charges run from a base of5with a delta of0.2 (0.2 is added for each "percent" of experimenation - so a range of5 at 0% to 25 at 100%). BEC charges is added (only once despite there being two BECs) to this value.


Ease of use:


The effective ease of use formula is (Avian OQ + Avian PE + Gas OQ)/3. Since the gas doesn't have PE as a stat, the Avian PE is overweighted.

I didn't really spend any time analyzing ease of use, but at a quick glance, I would guess that the base is 100, with a delta of -0.3. So hitting 30% gets you to the magic 90 med use.


Duration:


The statedduration formulais correct. The duration formula always looked suspicious to me (I would have expected a 66/33 split), but the documented 60/40 split is correct.


The effective Duration formula is (6*Avian DR + 4*Avian OQ + 6*Gas DR + 4*Gas OQ)/20. Nothing fancy here.


Duration runs from a base 1200 with a delta of 130 (so a range of 1200 to 14200). This fit the data remarkable exactly (the actual result within1 of the expected result when the line was maxed out).


Power:


The effective formula is (Avian OQ + Avian PE + Gas OQ)/3. Again, the avian PE is overweighted since the gas has no PE.


Power runs from a base of 40 with a delta of 7.6 (so a range of 40 to 800). CDRM, BEC, and SDD power are added to the final result (once for BEC and CDRM despite there being 2 or more required in the schematics).


The crafting process:


We know that duration and power are on the same experimentation line. We suspected that a separate "role" was made for duration and power. I confirmed this was the case. There were multiple times when I got a "great" success, yet duration would increase at an "amazing" success rate (at 8% rather than 7%) and power would increase at the standard 7% rate.


The displayed percentage value is some sort of average of the duration and power experimentation. This is why once you max out one line, you can continue to experiment, but a "great" success yields less than 7% (displayed... it still applies up to 7% to the line that still isn't maxed out). As a result of this, do not use the displayed percentage to calculate power or duration. To test the formula, max out the enhance pack on a clean experimentation run (no crit fails), and compare the final results with the theoretical results with the resources and subcompoents you used.


A great success isn't always exactly 7%. The duration grew at a reasonably consistent rate when experimenting a point at a time, but would sometimes be a little off (more than 1, which one might expect from rounding, but less difference than 130 in duration, which one would expect with a moderate of amazing success). In other words, there are still a few things that happen under the covers that I don't understand.



OK, now back to the question, "how much is that avian worth?". Based on the formulas above, we can conclude that:


100 Avian OQ (or 100 Gas OQ) is worth a maximum of 0.67 charges, -1 med use, 260 duration, and 25.33 power. It's worth about 30% of that on a line that isn't maxed out (in starting values).


100 Avian DR (or 100 Gas DR) is worth a maximun of 390 duration (and 30% of that if you are crazy and don't experiment the effectiveness line).


100 Avian PE is worth a maximum of -1 medical use and 25.33 power. Again, it's only worth 30% on any line that you don't max out.


As a point of comparison, the difference between a pack made with a 500/500/500 (perfectly average) avian meat and 900/900/900 avian meat (which would sell for 200 cpu presumably) with all other inputs being equal would be -2.4 ease of use (maybe 1 less experimentation point to get it to 90 if that's important), +0.8 charges, +202.67 power, +2600 duration. This is assuming that the effectiveness line is maxed out and any extra points are put into charges or ease of use, but neither of these is maxed out.


In monetary terms, what is an extra 202 power (500 or so on the actual buff), 40 extra minutes, and an extra charge worth?

Message Edited by Happymob on 06-17-2004 09:41 AM



Imadoh and Ikiecobi
Quality Resources and the Corellia Butcher - NoCo
NoCo Trade Center, Corellia (just northeast of Coronet) 796, -3076


Zimky
Mon Jun 07, 2004 8:00 am
#2

very nice finding, this will come in handy


Thank You very much
EtoMi
Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:03 am
#3

Thanks Happymob for this thread. Very useful!



EtoMi Ocece

Master Pistoleer
Lunariel
Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:44 pm
#4

I've been trying to figure the ranges out myself.

From my testing I got these:
(range is the same as delta times 100)

ASDS Power: Base 10, Range 65
ACRDM Power: Base 10, Range 65 (Max is 71.75 due to Herbivore PE cap)
ABEC Power: Base 5, Range 25 (Max is 27.5 due to Wild Wheat PE cap)
Buffpack D power: Base 40 Range 760
ABEC Charges: Base 5 Range 20
Buffpack D Charges: Base 5 Range 20 (Max is 18.33 for non-Action packs because of no UT)
Buffpack D Duration: Base 1200 Range 13000
Buffpack D Ease of use: Base 100 Range -30

My testing indicates that the fractions on the components are preserved, even though they are not shown. This means that you could get up to 3 more in power from them or perhaps another charge from what you expected.

This is probably why the data on your charges indicates 6 as base even though 5 is more logical. The fractions from the ABEC is enough to push it up an extra charge.

My power and duration formula differs slightly from yours too. We need to figure out which one is correct.
Lunariel
Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:48 pm
#5

Sorry for the poor formatting above. Seems I hit an autopost key before I was finished.
Bad_Bad_Leroy
Wed Jun 16, 2004 6:31 pm
#6


You should consider submitting this to http://swgcraft.com as a guide/faq.

Message Edited by Bad_Bad_Leroy on 06-16-2004 09:32 PM



Creb - Doctor, Swordswookiee (SRA Master of Medicine, Sunrunner)
Get Resource Despawn Alerts in your Email | SWG Medical Resources | Dailybuzz.net
Happymob
Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:13 pm
#7






Lunariel wrote:


My testing indicates that the fractions on the components are preserved, even though they are not shown. This means that you could get up to 3 more in power from them or perhaps another charge from what you expected.This is probably why the data on your charges indicates 6 as base even though 5 is more logical. The fractions from the ABEC is enough to push it up an extra charge.


My power and duration formula differs slightly from yours too. We need to figure out which one is correct.



Agreed. I had guessed that the components had decimals as well. I hadn't thought of a decent way to really test this. I'll craft a few more packs to see if we can nail the formulas down.




Imadoh and Ikiecobi
Quality Resources and the Corellia Butcher - NoCo
NoCo Trade Center, Corellia (just northeast of Coronet) 796, -3076


Happymob
Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:37 am
#8


Lunariel nailed the formulas. I ran 5 trials over a range of resource qualities. I only accepted a trial if I maxed out both duration and power (so I rejected a coupld of experiments with high quality resources in which failures caused me to not hit the upper target). The results are posted below.


Trial12345

Avian OQ 40 40990895895

Avian PE 710 710 852762 762

Avian DR 31 31 830 830 830

Gas OQ 207 998 207 207 988

Gas DR 797 597 797 797 597

power addons 69 69 69 69 69

Duration Max %29.78%39.40%72.75% 70.85%80.47%

Power Max % 31.90% 57.93% 68.30% 62.13% 88.17%


Actual Power 352 550 629 582 780

40/7.6 Power 351 549 628 581 779

45/7.5 Power 353549 626580 775


Actual Duration 5071 632210657 10410 11661

1200/130 Duration5071.4 632210657.5 10410.5 11661.1

1175/130 Duration 5046.4 629710632.5 10385.5 11636.1


It's pretty clear that the 1200/130 duration and 40/7.6 power formulas hit the marks the best. The 40 base power might be low, but it's hard to tell due to fractions in the subcomponents that aren't visible.


I'll update the original post to reflect the correct formulas.



Imadoh and Ikiecobi
Quality Resources and the Corellia Butcher - NoCo
NoCo Trade Center, Corellia (just northeast of Coronet) 796, -3076


Marrow1
Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:15 am
#9

Agent, could you please sticky or add this to the FAQ?




__________[Marrow]__________
____[*aka Fringing, Babwe, Hurtz *]____

__/\_/\___/\_____[last of the known Doctor Correspondents]/\___/\_/\__
The_Strider_Family
Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:47 pm
#10






Happymob wrote:



Charges:


The effective charge formula is (Avian OQ + Gas OQ + 0)/3. This is gated to 66.67% since neither resource has UT.


Charges run from a base of5with a delta of0.2 (0.2 is added for each "percent" of experimenation - so a range of5 at 0% to 25 at 100%). BEC charges is added (only once despite there being two BECs) to this value.




I am not sure I agree with this particular formula. It's been my experience from crafting a number of items between Weaponsmith, Architect and Doctor that if an item does not have a particular stat that is used in determining one of the characteristics a 0 is NOT put in the formula but rather the denominator is reduced by 1.


Therefore that formula for charges would be (Avian OQ + Gas OQ)/2 and it therefore would not be gated. A better representation of that in a crafting context is the fact that Architects specifically use Lube Oil for making Harvesters because it lacks the stats used in determining the harvester rate. And it was always the case in Weaponsmithing also that if you had an item with a bad number (200) for instance in a particular stat it was ALWAYS better to use something that didn't have the stat rather than one with a bad stat.


Has anyone else recognized or noticed this? I noticed in the post that has the different buff pack data for 5 different sets of resources the Charges were not in the comparison.





__________________________________________________________________
ga Remnants of the Jedi ga
"Never. I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed, your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."
ga Vubo Strider || Aelei Strider ga
Jedi Padawan and Former Ranger (Vubo) - Veteran Crafter and Merchant (Aelei)
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Happymob
Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:38 pm
#11






The_Strider_Family wrote:

A better representation of that in a crafting context is the fact that Architects specifically use Lube Oil for making Harvesters because it lacks the stats used in determining the harvester rate. And it was always the case in Weaponsmithing also that if you had an item with a bad number (200) for instance in a particular stat it was ALWAYS better to use something that didn't have the stat rather than one with a bad stat.




The difference in these cases is that another resource does have the desired stat. You are absolutely correct that architects use lube oil in most of their crafting that requires chemical. The reason is that none of the required stats exist in lube oil, but they do exist in other resources used. This increases the importance of things like steel, but overall simplifies resource matching.


It is absolutely the case that if none of the resources fulfill a given required stat that the stat is


Anyway, this is easy to test with Stim As. Power has a stated formula of 66% OQ + 33% PE. It requires 8 units of inorganic and 8 units of organic. Past experimentation shows it has a base power of 75 and a delta of 0.25 (for a range of 75 to 100). Make one with an organic and inorganic with OQ only (say a metal combined with a hide).


Now what happens when you combine a 853 OQ hide with a 857 OQ copper? By your formula, it should be (853 + 857)/2 = 855 for an 85.5% experimentation cap. By my formula it's (853 + 857 + 0)/3 for a 57.0% experimentation cap.


Actual experimentation topped at 56% at 89 power.


If I added PE on either the inorganic or the organic, that resource would then account for the full 33% that PE contributes. If I both resources had PE, each would contribute half of the 33% PE. It is pretty clear that when neither resource has PE, the contribution in the formula is 0.



Imadoh and Ikiecobi
Quality Resources and the Corellia Butcher - NoCo
NoCo Trade Center, Corellia (just northeast of Coronet) 796, -3076


Marrow1
Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:55 pm
#12

This idea is also explained in the Doc FAQ using stims as an example.




__________[Marrow]__________
____[*aka Fringing, Babwe, Hurtz *]____

__/\_/\___/\_____[last of the known Doctor Correspondents]/\___/\_/\__
Dejik
Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:04 pm
#13

Imadoh you amaze me every day....first you sell QUALITY resources (holy crap is that rare....). And then you actually figure out part of our profession. You a dev in disguise? */peer*



Dejik Eekapto
Scylla
Master Doctor/ Master God-Knows What
Guild Leader of the Kaiburr Cartel
All-around smartass
Page 1 of 2
Previous Next