Doctor Archive
Thread: Cure Poison Repost
Reposted From an Old Zarlor Thread
(*To be Fixed*) It has also been noted that the current CM poison strength, while now acknowledged as viable, does not have an acceptable counter in even a standard Doctor Cure Poison, in that it often takes a Master Doc with a similar Cure Pack to a CM’s Poison pack anywhere from 2-4 applications of the cure in order for it to take effect. Combined with the AoE issues above it would be utterly impossible for a Doc to even come close to countering a CM AoE poison. It has been suggested that at the very least the Disease and Poison Cure packs be boosted up a bit in capability. (Ben Hanson response to correspondent on 9/22/03: “Increased the power of cure poison and cure disease dots to make them more competitive with the strength of high level dots.” and “Changed the effect of wound treatment skill mods on curing poison and disease. It now acts as a % increase to the base medicine value. This puts it in line with how these mods work with other healing actions.” As noted at the top the earliest we can probably expect to see such a fix would be in 2-8 weeks.)
Phew I just blasted out my mind chain curing mind poison with -C- class cure poisons. It took me 2-3 attempts to cure each dose and the CM doused me 3 times in the fight. There is no rock paper scissors here it's rock rock rock on top of my head. With Cure Poisons unrated balence adjustment should be relativly straight forward.
Hail Zarlor for all the good work.
Hehe. Try to convince the CMs that they won't be getting a nerf here, though. This issue actually made it onto their List when i was helping out and asking for issues to help give them a voice while we were waiting for anew CM correspondent. Obvisouly many Docs have had the experience you had (and several CMs had posted similar experiences to yours) but several of the CMs are vehmently insistent that even a poorly made Cure Poison C will cure their BEST C-level Poison in 1 shot. I've seen more reports like yours than I have to the contrary, though.
At any rate, I think this is actually a fix to a nerf we got back in the first publish when they decided to give CM poisons a much needed boost, but forgot to boost the cures to compensate. Some of the CMs didn't see it like that and are pretty convinced hey are getting nerfed here.
At any rate, my personal position on the issue is that the Best Cure C should never cure a Poison C in 1 shot. Any similar level poisons, though, probably should be a 1 or no more than 2 shot cure. I DO think that CMs deserve some slight boost over Docs, though, because of the point cost needed for them to get into CM to begin with, over just the Master Medic requirement that we Docs need. Either in requiring that a C Poison only be a little bit better than a C cure before it needs 2 cures to get rid of it (for example) or by reducing the mind cost to toss the posion as compared to the cost to cure. I THINK the latter is currently the case, actually.
I tip my hat and counter with the range issue. Push me back to 30+ meters and I gladly accept the two dose cure.
--Master Docter Grews Rumsig exchanges his T-21 for a poison antidote dart gun in preparation for his next battle again the evil imperial BioHazard specialists--
As far as single poisons ect, if someone can apply it, and another person can negate it, id call that balanced myself. Thats what balance is all about.
If you want to go the skillpoint argument, then you are back to making Bounty Hunters obviously better than everyone else because they require more skillpoints - just dont cry when everyone that wants to PvP is a bh.
Lets face it, docs with the cure are not as prevalent, so its not like cms would be nullified.
If anything, move cure C's into the master doctor realm - this would be acceptable as far as im concerned, make it a bit harder to make or use, but we would still be an adeqate counter.
Respectfully, I believe that doctors need to be "buffed up" a bit in order to counter combat medic poisons. Let me share my experience.
I've been selling stimpacks since I was an early medic (even prior to Oragnic Chem 4 and the advanced subcomponents). Now that I've been doing it for quite some time (I'm now a master doctor), I have gobs of excellent resources on hand, including plenty of advanced subcomponents, such as BEC's and LS's. (This will be important in a minute.)
Well, I decided I wanted to try out combat medic and be a dual master. I made it that far and decided I'd make a poison C pack. Unfortunately, I didn't have any of the resources needed to make the advanced subcomponents I needed, such as Yavinian Fiberplast, Class 2 Liquid Petro Fuel, etc. So, being the impatient **edit** that I am, I simply made some basic subcomponents with whatever I had lying around (the resources weren't particularly good, but they fit the schematics).
Once I had made my first mind poison, I headed into town with it. I found someone that I knew had been working on becoming a master combat medic, as well, and I asked him if I could try the poison on him. He agreed and we began dueling. I tossed the poison pack and he fell over incapped in under 10 seconds - it took just 2 ticks to drop him.
Well, to say the least, I was surprised by the power of the poison, especially since I hadn't use any advanced subcomponents and only average resources. After he went down, I felt it only fitting that I'd cure the poison so that he didn't have to lay there for 10 minutes waiting for it to wear off. So, I pulled out my trusty Cure Poison C pack (made with all of my best subcomponents and resources) and continued to use 3 charges to get rid of the poison!
I'm sorry, but that was a poorly made poison pack and a very well made cure poison pack. I don't understand why it shouldn't have worked on one try or, at worst, in two.
The combat medics might see it asa "nerf," but there needs to be some sort of counter to what they're doing. I mentioned earlier that I dropped my friend in under 10 seconds from mind damage. I can't even apply a cure poison pack 3 times in 10 seconds. So, even if a CM hits your partner with a crummy poison pack, you can't (without a bit of luck) cure the poison before your partner drops. That needs a fix, in my opinion.
In my short time as a combat medic (along with an equally short stint in PvP), I was never once taken down and unable to kill my target. Ever. And I've done a grand total of about 20 minutes of PvP - I'm no expert.
Marzuk147 wrote:
[snip]
If you want to go the skillpoint argument, then you are back to making Bounty Hunters obviously better than everyone else because they require more skillpoints - just dont cry when everyone that wants to PvP is a bh.
Yeah, actually I agree with that. I think that a plain-jane BH (no other skills) should ALWAYS defeat a plain-jane version of any other profession. Holo has pretty much made this same statement before that balance is not exactly meant to be balanced in the game for certain professions because of the skill cost (and hence lack of flexibility) required in achieving that profession.
Where I think the balance should lie is in the completed template. Take a BH with all of teh 250 Skill points spent (resonably) and,. say, a Master Doc/Master Pistoleer (or whatever) with all their skill points spent reasonably and THEN I think you should find a balance if each character is being used with proper tactics to their full potential.
Now for the Doc/CM issue, I would suggest that the worst case scenario for giving CMs that little bost would be in having a poorly made C Cure use up 2 charges to cure a high-end/advanced component C Poison OR just make sure that, all other things being equal, the mind cost to toss that poison is less than the mind cost to cure it. That's just my take on it, though.
I think that this is more than just Doctor Issue.
As doctor, I'd be pretty satisfied with Cure C being even steven to Poison C. But thats because when I am there, there is always doctor aroud. Me!
But even if most CM swear up and down that Doctors out number CM zillion to one and you can't throw poison without having it bounce off doctor, I think the effect it would have on current PvP would be minimal at best and in most situation, you wouldn't see the difference from current situation.
Sure with the upcoming fix, there will be cases with some Master Doctor who can cure entire group by just looking at them, and CM would be all over that, and thenthere will be same nurf callenfolks over at discussion forum who insist that nothing changed andswear up and down that there is not a single competent doctor in their entire server.
I'd say lower the mind cost and med use by 10% on cure poison/disease and see how it works out for about month. Then lower it again if needed and keep lowering them every month until right number is found.
Even one on one, a combat medic can defeat a doctor by repeatedly throwing mind poison each time its cured. after 3 or 4 applications, the doctor won't be able to cure himself anymore, then 1 tick and he's down.
Looking at the skill point argument, it takes 140 skill points to make Master Doctor (cure Cs have a med use req of 96 or so which requires master doctor). All a combat medic needs to throw a truly effective poison is Master Combat Medic Support (med use of a poison C is around 60, and a good area C will fall under 75), and Master Ranged Healing Distance for a total of 140 skill points.
My skill planner appears to be off. It doesn't show an increase to combat medic effectiveness at master, but even so, at Distance 4 poison C is still devestating, and depending on how well its made, may or may not be cured in one shot. On top of that, they already get the Area C that cannot be cured in one shot (assuming you're in a group and more than one person is hit with it).
As a compromise, I would be fine if doctors had to craft specific cures for each HAM bar as combat medics have to with poison (although as a doctor/cm combo I think my backpack would rupture), but Doctor's need to be able to cure high end poisons in one shot with high end cures in one shot.
ok i can post on both the CM and Doc since i'm master in both.
Zarlor, I posted statistics on poisons vs cures in the CM forum with the requested stats you asked for.
I test my new poisons and disease on PA members (guinney pigs) to see how my cures do.
Here is something I found out, With a single use poison that hits for 425+ It will take 2 applications of a mediocre cure c pack. effectiveness experimented to 39% (bad resources) AOEs tickin at 360 - 1 shot with the same kit. It seems to be that the magic is in the experimentation effect vs the damage amount of the poisons.
so then, and 90% effectiveness cure should be able to clear a 900 pt poison with 1 application. Can you get any hard data from the devs on this?
My fear is that if cures are beefed up, then A and Bs will have to the potential to clear a C poison, which should not be happening at all.
Mraughh: Jus to let you know,I did pass on your numbers. I also share that concern, though. I don't want to see B cures taking out a C poison in one shot. I don't think that will be happening but I do not have, and have not been able to get, confirmation on that. IF I can get the resources to do it I might see if Kavedawg would be willing to do some tests with me on Friday over on TC (where this is supposed to already be in place) and we can see how it works out.
All i can really say on the issue for the moment is that CM poisons got a significant boost back in teh first publish last month. Doc cures did not get the boost. So I would suspect that this is just a balancing measure to bring things back into line. (How can it be a CM nerf, if it was a Doc nerf to begin with, you see what I mean?) So hopefully the balance is now in line, but not such that a B cure is taking on C posions.
hmm, what would be nice is if you could have perfect resources on the test center to try these out.
any way to petition the devs for something like this?
have them supply with 1000 to all stat resources there then build the cures and poisons and try them out?
never played on TC so i dont know what its like.
That would be the only way to truely test the effectiveness of the cures and poisons.