Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-10: Combat Roles; Pistoleer
In a galaxy far, far away, it is a time of civil war. The Empire has taken control over the galaxy and attempted to build the ultimate battle station to enforce the will of the Emperor. The rebellion destroyed the fearsome Death Star and this galactic conflict is at its peak.
In Massively Multiplayer combat, each profession should have a distinct role. Each role should help define the profession and have a relationship with its abilities in combat. In popular fantasy games, wizards cast ranged spells, warriors are “tanks”, and clerics “heal”. Each archetype has a specific role in combat and they all depend on each other for success. Additionally, each role gives any particular player group a unique feel depending on how many of each type is involved in a group and the role they play when combat gets tough.
In a science-fiction oriented game, those traditional roles aren’t so clear cut. Most skills and abilities are redundant because of balance issues, which take away from the unique feel of the profession. Many players have stated that they would like to see SWG professions have a more unique feel to them and we would like to know what your thoughts are.
Some basic balance considerations are:
* Ranged and Melee Professions
In SWG, a key thing to consider about each profession and its role in combat is that there are many ranged combat classes and many melee combat classes. Each ranged combat profession should have a unique aspect to their “ranged” abilities that helps distinguish them from other ranged combat professions, and likewise, each melee combat profession should have a unique aspect to their “tanking” or melee abilities that helps distinguish them from other melee professions.
* Redundant vs. Unique Abilities
There are two basic set of combat skills any profession should have. The first are Redundant Abilities. These are abilities that either most or all combat professions posses, in other words, “everyman combat skills”. The second set of combat skills a profession should posses are Unique Abilities. Unique abilities are the abilities that give a profession its unique feel in combat. In other words, it defines the profession and its role in combat.
* Game Space
Another basic concept to keep in mind when thinking about combat professions and their role in combat is Game Space. The next big consideration for assessing combat abilities is where the combat takes place. There are indoor spaces and outdoors spaces. Indoor spaces would be dungeons, bases and the like and outdoor spaces would be wilderness and/or city spaces.
* PvP and PvE
In SWG, players can choose between PvE and PvP playstyles and even shift back and forth to play in elements of both. PvE is “Player versus Environment” and basically deals with fighting computer controlled enemies in combat. PvP is “Player versus Player” and is real players fighting real players and tends to be very tricky because anytime something in game is at stake (like faction equipment, etc), it is important to keep things fair and balanced, but also fun.
* Profession Lifespan
What is the profession’s role in its novice state and how should the skill progress over the course of a player’s time investment in the profession? At all times any given profession should have a distinct role and value in combat. As a player progresses from Novice to Master, the profession should reflect something special about the profession and also be fun to play.
Given the basic considerations listed above, please answer the following questions:
What defines thePistoleerrole in combat?
What basic combat elements should they possess?
What offensive abilities?
What defensive abilities?
What unique abilities?
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
How could/should they interact with other professions?
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Request For Comments:
The community is invited to make commentsthrough April. At that time, the thread will be closed to further comments. Feel free to comment on any or all of the above items. Please stay on topic.
I think pistoleers should be very hard to hit, almost as much as fencers currently are, but when they are hit, it should hit them hard.
I dont believe pistoleers should have all of the defense vs stats. You would think a beastly heavy swordsman or pikeman would be harder to knock down, then a pistoleer.
"I dont believe pistoleers should have all of the defense vs stats. You would think a beastly heavy swordsman or pikeman would be harder to knock down, then a pistoleer."
Then consider that swinging a hefty sword or a polearm would require you to "learn" to re-balance yourself while using it,..so in effect you should have some def. vs. kd.,...however, also realize that a pistoleer must also learn to balance him or herself while gunfighting, its essential to proper aiming for one,..two, a gunfighter must be agile and quick on their feet while running and shooting in part to both be accurate and dodge incoming attacks. Now, you may ask how does one dodge a bullet (or a blaster beam in SWG)? Simple, most fighters whether they be unarmed or armed learn to anticipate percieved attacks through years of practice (they learn to recognize ina second if their opponent by the way he/she standsor moves what the next "possible" move may be) thus resulting in a def. vs. a knockdown. You can attribute this to just about any def. vs. stat really.
Again, the gunfighter is always on the move (or should be) so he/she should automatically be hard to hit, even if one were to disregard my above reason. The only firearm wielding people or things that I have seen that just stand around and fire away are the terminator and snipers. We aren't the terminator, and snipers are masters of concealment -therefore are/should be hard to hit due to their cunning and stealth.
Now, one could percieve that by your signature you are a heavy swordsman, and I too have tried that profession,..3-2-3-3, but this post is addressed to the pistoleers, not swordsmen or their role in combat. As a pistoleer, I could conceive this as a "nerf" post, but I won't. This is my attempt as a Master Pistoleer to educate others. I would end this post with a thought: " You say that Pistoleers shouldn't have all the def. vs. stats, I guess specifically def. vs. kd,..but since when did anyone in history ever get a "mind bleed" from a sword?"
As for being hard to hit, and if hit it should be very hard,...well,...I can attest I am no more hard to hit than most other professions, and as for the degree of the hit, armor and buffs will always negate the amount of damage anyone deals to that person regardless of profession.
The Gost Dajtink Experience feat. Tito,....Master Pistoleer/Smuggler/Medic/and Sharp Dressed Man.
A pistoleer should be the overall fastest firing ranged profession, while at the same time doing less overall damage with each shot than a carbineer or a rifleman. The lack of damage is made up with the speed.
Should have a very limited range, maybe 32m. The current KD works well, but they need a way to keep them down, ideally a delay would work best, but it's not a necessity. Can't have everyone with a dizzy or a delay now can we 
As the ranged profession that specializes in health damage, the pistoleer needs more specials that attack the health, as opposed to the random HAM ones currently in place. (Body shot 3 doesn't count as Body shot 2 does more damage )
Witha decreased range, a pistoleer needs minor tanking abilities, not as much as a melee profession requires, but enough more or less akin to the fencer's evades. There are currently evades in place to be sure, but the animation that occurs when you evade takes place of a shot, mayhap you can shoot while evading.
Also, something that has been on the pistoleer's wish list for awhile, the ability to weild duel pistols. This could drastically decrease the accuracy that you would normally have with one pistol in hand, but the tradeoff increase in damage output would be worth it. (plus it would look darn cool 
) Only available at Master Pistoleer, mind you.
As much of an asset to a group as any other I suppose, if you have a group of pistoleers together, the health bars of your enemies would fear you Other than that, the ability to shoot quickly, maybe better accuracy while running, small tank abilities with healthy evasion, not as effective as maybe having a TKA with you, but useful nonetheless 
As far as interaction, about the same as with any other combat profession I suppose. Needs of new weapons and armor being the same with almost everyone, at the moment there is no real necessary interdependencies imposed on any combat profession.
And as for the role in the GCW, like any other soldier, sent to the fields to fetch themselves some honor and glory
Forgive the bad grammar, I don't post much, but as a Master Pistoleer, I felt the need to comment
1.) the defining role of a pistoleer in combat- First and foremost i think pistoleers should be the masters of the quickdraw. No one within eyesight should ever get the drop on a master pistoleer, with the exception of say a master bounty hunter or riflemen, who would attack from cover anyways. a master gunfighter should be just like the gunslingers of old from the wild west times of american society. They should inspire fear and always keep other combat types on their toes. And no other combat class should rival the master pistoleers speed with his trusty sidearm.
2.) the basic combat elements they should possess- Speed speed and more speed. pistoleers should be able to quickdraw their weapon put a round into their targets torso and place thier gun back in their holsters before the target even knew what hit them. They should be able to fan the hammer as it were and litterally blind their target with the number of rounds they could throw at them. they should also be able to strike their opponent in any area they choose just like a called shot. Handguns are incredibly tricky to master and a true master of a handgun should be able to cause a variety of status effects on their targets according to where the gunfighter chooses to hit them. We currently do not have any specials that grant state effects as most other combat classes. This is sheer folly and goes against most common perceptions of a expert marksman.
3.) they should posess the following offensive abilities-
the ability to master the quickdraw. Gunfighters should never have to walk anywhere with a sidearm drawn. they should have the ability to master counter-attacking, from a holster on any opponent who initiates an attack aagainst them, provided they have a clear shot(riflemen may be an exception here) Give pistoleers the ability to inflict state changes on their opponents through a revamp of currently broken and bugged special attacks. MAKE DISARM ACCTUALLY DISARM...and not attack the condition of a weapon as has been suggested. make it enforce a delay that would hinder(simulate the weapon being dropped) the opponent trying to reequip their weapon.
4.) defensive abilities should be- make the pistoleer light on his feet and able to use available cover. this is esspecially important in the urban combat theater. a master pistoleer in my opinion should be able to strike first, thus his defensive capabilities wouldnt need that much emphasis imho. Im happy with the dodge skill as it is.
5.) unique abilities- as stated before the ability to quickdraw. ex. a carbineer walks up to a pistoleer and initieas combat by raising his weapon to his shoulder and preparing to fire a killing blow. in the split second it takes him to raise his weapon the gunfighter could quickdraw his pistol and shoot from the hip ans score a devastating stun hit on the target before he even pressed the trigger. this would affect the enemies ability to fire accurately, say give them minuses for a few seconds to their accuracy. Also the ability to rapidly "fan the trigger" a temporary boost of speed that would frieghten even the most die hard user of automatic weapons. a temporary boost to pistol speed that could increase in skill as the gunfighter did. get rid of the 1 second minimum speed for master pistoleers. anyone can fire off two rounds in just about any handgun in one second. its called a double tap, and im sure i saw that somewhere on the pistoleer skill tree. Make it work like a speed boost, not just a damage modifier that it currently is.
6.) asset in group combat- the ability to single out a single opponent for a quick and deadly strike. Group benefits? im not seeing much as most gunfights are in the real world, wuick and deadly. Im not sure i see anything special for the class in the way of group dynamics or special benefits or roles.
7.) How could they interact with other professions- the same way as they do now. they buy thier guns just like everyone else. My only request is give the pistoleer a better class specific weapon, as it stands right now the dx-2 is shamefully outmatched and outclassed in all areas by the republic blaster. give us han solos custom DL-44. somthing able to atomize an opponent but that might be questionable if say a imperial patrol would ever find it...unless youre an imperial officer, then its "nothing to see here PRIVATE..." make weponsmiths able to make "truly custom guns" give them names, and make them legendary weapons in the hands of legendary fighters... just like the feared colt peacemaker of the wild west.
Interactions and dependencies with other combat classes- First and foremost a master pistoleer shouldnt have to dabble in smuggler or Bh just to be viable and have access to better weapons or skills. make master pistoleers unpeered with the sidearm. No one, not even the vaunted bounty hunters should rival someone whos trained their whole lives with a single weapon type like the pistol. make the title master pistoleer somthing to be respected, not just the typical "oh look someone grinding out a holo profession again."
9.) their unique role in the galactic civil war.- most officers are trained in the use of personal sidearms. and most officers are required to wear them as part of their uniform within the star wars movies if you notice... Not to sure as to the implications but its just somthing i noticed as i watched them. I dont think pistoleers have any "expanded" role in the GCW.
In summation: Gunfighters to me represent the lifestyle and embodiment of the old "outlaw" of the wild west. they should have the ability to quickdraw. No other ranged combat class should be as skilled in close range as the gunfighter. They shouldnt have to dabble to be viable in PvP. they should have a better class specific weapon , as the other clasess already posess. Lastly their specials should cause state effects as other ranged classes currently do.(Disarm should acctually disarm!!).
Hope this was positive and in the format that you wanted TH.
Tavian Brae'Monte
--Tempest Galaxy
/signature under revision- (Rev. SE-311-DE-MMO-010-B)
What defines thePistoleerrole in combat?
As said before they are all about speed. Gunfighters were feared, able to take down a whole possee before the first one blinked. Its all about speed.... in close ranges. They should be mainly used and find use in fights against other humanoid races. Nightmares if you are within sight of them, prey if they have no idea that there is an opponent around.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Speed, speed, speed.... Speed with they weapons (firing fast, different targets, etc...) and with their reactions to danger (dodge), accuracy (throwing a credit chip into the air and blasting a whole in it before it hits the ground)
What offensive abilities?
Excellent accuracyat short range. I think they should do just as much damage at close range (or nearly so) as carbines and rifles (This is true for the most part in real life.. its only at distance does a pistol show weakness) but there should be a large diversity on ability to penetrate armor (as it currently is) They do just as much damage up close but if they are trying to hit something a good distance away the energy of the discharge is lost more quickly not to mention accuracy making many shots at a long distance nearly worthless. Pistol Defense (working ones that is) can show their adaptability in close combat
What defensive abilities?
The Dodge covers this pretty well. Defense against many status effects that is currently in play work pretty well as is.
What unique abilities?
I agree with a previous statement by another person on this topic, they should be able to keep a weapon holstered draw it, fire it and put it back away in the blink of an eye. Definitly should be able to hit multiple targets with a single shot (simulating several shots to many targets with blinding speed)
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
When the frontline is 20 feet in front of you, a pistoleer close by should be a highly coveted commodity. Being able to take on many people at once who are about ready to breathe down your neck should be their specialty.
How could/should they interact with other professions? These should have close bonds with Riflemen as they compliment one another. They should often be found amongst people and the conflicts therein not marching throuhg forests looking for Rancor's. Any melee class should feel a strong rivalry with the Pistoleer due to their prowess at close combat. Just look at how quickly dueling went to pistols due to their effectiveness.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
They should depend on Rifleman if they are taking on creatures that are physically tough. Medics and doctors should be close friends of the pistoleer due to their usual proimity to danger.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Should often be encountered on GCW battlefields everywhere, in so far that their abilities to tackle groups of humanoids quickly should be legendary.
What defines thePistoleerrole in combat?
The Pistoleer is the mobile ranged combatant. They are able to shoot well while running and thereby make the best "kiters". They are well-suited to defeating melee fighters.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Mobility and ranged defense, as well as ranged attacks.
What offensive abilities?
Their basic attacks should work best at low-medium range, with high speed, low damage, and moderate accuracy. Their specials should be fairly limited to combinations of motion and attacks (e.g. Tumbling Shot, Shoot While Running).
What defensive abilities?
Pistoleers should have the best ranged defense in the game Combined with their ability to run and shoot they are a good defensive ranged class against melee and other ranged classes. They should have some "active defense" specials like an all-out dodge that ruins their accuracy but makes them very hard to shoot with ranged weapons, traps, etc.
What unique abilities?
Movement while fighting. They should be able to kite melee opponents and dodge ranged opponents. They should have active defenses and be able to shoot while moving (better than others, at least).
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
Tactical mobility. They should be able to run around behind the enemy group if necessary, come in close on their snipers, or harass and kite their melee fighters.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Against melee fighters they should dominate. They should be able to kite the enemy around until they are foolish enough to stop or unlucky enough to be knocked down. They also have a good advantage over Riflemen, who must lay prone for best effect. The pistoleer can dodge and approach within the Rifleman's effective range. Carbineers have an advanage, being able to stop a Pistoleer from moving. The Carbineer can force the Pistoleer to kneeling or prone, making it a much harder fight for the mobile Pistoleer. If the Carbineer has a Rifleman or melee-capable friend, the Pistoleer is definitely in trouble.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
The Pistoleer is a group's best defense against a melee-heavy group. While running he might not get many shots through, but keeps the melee fighter busy. If the brawler stops to fight someone else, the Pistoleer shoots unchecked. if the brawler gives chase, the Pistoleer can keep running. However, the Pistoleer is poor at dishing out damage and will fail if intercepted, knocked down, or picked off by a Carbineer or other Pistoleer.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Pistoleers should be the best ranged defenders. Their job is to harass, outmaneuver, and occupy enemy forces, though they may not be the best at killing them.
Added Question: What is their weakness or shortcoming in combat?
Loss of mobility hampers them quite a bit. Being knocked down by a Carbineer or Pikeman, or being snared in a trap, cuts off many of their benefits. Once made stationary, the Pistoleer's poor damage proves to be no match for most other combatants.
i am only novice pistoleer but i am working on it. here r sumthings i thought were odd. for one sumone said there is a limit on how fast ur speed is i currently have a fwg5 at 1.1 wihout powerup and it is sliced. now with power up i get 1.0. i think i should be able to shoot faster(even thou that pretty fast) i know that masters don't even look at speed on a pistol cause they make it go down so much when welding it. now if a marksman picks up my pistol and a master pistoleer picks the same one would the master pistoleer still be stopped at whatever the limit is which i am not aware of(but sumone a weaponsmith told me there is) so i stopped looking for a faster pistol. but i think we should be able to get the pistol as fast as we can with our skills. or not if it is like .0 but there shouldn't be one like 1.0
ps if there r and master pistoleers who want to give me and tips on pistoleer i would love the help thanks.
Within the 20-32m range, a pistoleer should be king. No other profession should come close to the pistoleer when it comes to speed. He is a quickdraw, the fastest in the game bar none. With that being said, a pistoleer should have the most limited damage capabilities of all of the combat professions. We kill our enemy with unparalled speed and effiency, not big hitting attacks.
We should posess three unique characteristics:
First, we should be able to drain an opponents health bar better than any other profession in the game. Body Shot 3 needs a serious upgrade for this to occur. Also, an AoE attack that targets the health pool would be a very welcomed addition (MultiTarget Pistol Shot anyone?).
Secondly, pistoleer should be able to provide covering fire like no other profession. Disarming shot is a great place to add some sort of effect to reflect this. Perhaps a delay similar to (but not as long as) panic shot. Or maybe a shot that adds a random status effect like a blind, stun, or intimidate. This would go a long way towards providing diversification for our profession.
Finally, the ability to dual weild would be a great and unique addition. While there would need to be some sort of balance (perhaps an accuracy penalty, or only certain pistols can be duel weilded), it is something every pistoleer wants to happen. It would not only look ultra-cool, it would finally make us feel like true Gunslingers.
You were supposed to be gathering this information from the Correspondents for the last FOUR MONTHS ... this really has the feel of patronizing fluff.
Instead of spamming us with a bunch of cut 'n paste topics, get to work on the substantive feedback on EXACTLY these questions that the Correspondents have been providing you. No more "oh, let's gather information" ... fix the stuff that we've begged you to fix, this is by no means rocket science.