Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-11: Combat Roles; Ranger
/agree with ErrikksonFLaskhe has a preety good handle on it. Especially TRAPS working on everything at the Ranger level.
You can quote me: Does a bear trap, once it is set in the ground, care if it is a bear paw or a human foot that steps in it? The answer to having traps work on everything and everone is the same as to this question. Sometime the obvious is too obvious.
The Devs made a big thing during Beta about needing crowd control professions in this game. We can't have wizards or mages to use spells so we do the best we can - they said. Well the best they could do would be allow Rangers to help fill that role with their traps. It makes total sense. Smugglers get panic shot - other professions have AE attacks. Why not traps?
If a grenade works on everyone and everthing when thrown by a commando - why doesn't a trap? Nice job with the profession Flask.
In a galaxy far, far away, it is a time of civil war. The Empire has taken control over the galaxy and attempted to build the ultimate battle station to enforce the will of the Emperor. The rebellion destroyed the fearsome Death Star and this galactic conflict is at its peak.
In Massively Multiplayer combat, each profession should have a distinct role. Each role should help define the profession and have a relationship with its abilities in combat. In popular fantasy games, wizards cast ranged spells, warriors are “tanks”, and clerics “heal”. Each archetype has a specific role in combat and they all depend on each other for success. Additionally, each role gives any particular player group a unique feel depending on how many of each type is involved in a group and the role they play when combat gets tough.
In a science-fiction oriented game, those traditional roles aren’t so clear cut. Most skills and abilities are redundant because of balance issues, which take away from the unique feel of the profession. Many players have stated that they would like to see SWG professions have a more unique feel to them and we would like to know what your thoughts are.
Some basic balance considerations are:
* Ranged and Melee Professions
In SWG, a key thing to consider about each profession and its role in combat is that there are many ranged combat classes and many melee combat classes. Each ranged combat profession should have a unique aspect to their “ranged” abilities that helps distinguish them from other ranged combat professions, and likewise, each melee combat profession should have a unique aspect to their “tanking” or melee abilities that helps distinguish them from other melee professions.
* Redundant vs. Unique Abilities
There are two basic set of combat skills any profession should have. The first are Redundant Abilities. These are abilities that either most or all combat professions posses, in other words, “everyman combat skills”. The second set of combat skills a profession should posses are Unique Abilities. Unique abilities are the abilities that give a profession its unique feel in combat. In other words, it defines the profession and its role in combat.
* Game Space
Another basic concept to keep in mind when thinking about combat professions and their role in combat is Game Space. The next big consideration for assessing combat abilities is where the combat takes place. There are indoor spaces and outdoors spaces. Indoor spaces would be dungeons, bases and the like and outdoor spaces would be wilderness and/or city spaces.
* PvP and PvE
In SWG, players can choose between PvE and PvP playstyles and even shift back and forth to play in elements of both. PvE is “Player versus Environment” and basically deals with fighting computer controlled enemies in combat. PvP is “Player versus Player” and is real players fighting real players and tends to be very tricky because anytime something in game is at stake (like faction equipment, etc), it is important to keep things fair and balanced, but also fun.
* Profession Lifespan
What is the profession’s role in its novice state and how should the skill progress over the course of a player’s time investment in the profession? At all times any given profession should have a distinct role and value in combat. As a player progresses from Novice to Master, the profession should reflect something special about the profession and also be fun to play.
Given the basic considerations listed above, please answer the following questions:
What defines theRanger role in combat?
What basic combat elements should they possess?
What offensive abilities?
What defensive abilities?
What unique abilities?
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
How could/should they interact with other professions?
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Request For Comments:
The community is invited to make commentsthrough April. At that time, the thread will be closed to further comments. Feel free to comment on any or all of the above items. Please stay on topic.
What defines theRanger role in combat?
A
What basic combat elements should they possess?
What offensive abilities?
What defensive abilities?
What unique abilities?
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
How could/should they interact with other professions?
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
What defines theRanger role in combat?
This is where my opinion about the Ranger role differs from the Dev community. The Dev Community is said to see the Ranger as the ultimate beast hunter. The traps and camo we have do nothing for PvP or even PvE vs NPCs (well, they are nto supposed to anyway). The Ranger gains some defensive mods and offensive mods against creatures, but they are not that large. So as it stands, the Ranger is at best a supporting role for combat, and then only PvE combat vs beasts.
I would rather see the Ranger's skills become applicable to PvP and PvE NPC combat as well. The fact the Ranger must fully master Scout first means he is somewhat limited in how much he can put into a combat class, so I would think extending our abilities to these areas should not be overpowering.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
I am not sure the Ranger should get anything directly combat-oriented outside of PvE bonuses to hit critters, but I think the camo, conceal and sneak abilities should also apply to dealings with PCs and NPCs in the wild (not in cities or dungeons).
What offensive abilities? What defensive abilities?
The bonuses against critters seem good. More would be better of course, but I may be biased.
What unique abilities?
The camo and sneak stuff, if extended, would be great. The camps offer a wonderful platform for future expansion ideas - a combat camp with defenses? An ambush camp with camo bonuses for all within? Again, not just limited to critter combat.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
The Ranger should be able to assist a group in hiding from foes, and detecting foes that are hiding from the group
How could/should they interact with other professions? What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
I would love to see accessories and add-ons for camps and traps that we could purchase from other classes to make our camps more effective. Some examples - a minefield addition purchased from a Weaponcrafter; a vehicle repair module purchased from an Artisan, a defensive parapet purchased from anArmorsmith orSquad Leader, etc. The Ranger's actual combat role is pretty much determined by whatever combat profession (if any) the Ranger picks up.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
The Rangers unique role is not usine to the GCW I think, just unique to the needs of a group - looking for recon and camo services.
Alyc Voleslayer of Kauri
Ranger, Carbineer, Bounty Hunter, Scout, Medic
****Pls add and edit feature to these boards. Sorry for the double post****
What defines theRanger role in combat?
- A Ranger should be the master of stealth and recon.
- The current tracking ability is the best of the class and a great example of the recon ability. Also the ability to examine a creature and determine it's special attacks is wonderful as well.
- However with the possible upcoming changes to the Wayfaring line, our stealth needs to be looked at. While I don't think we should be invisible to other players, how about having camo keep us off of radars until the 64m mark? Our prey would not be able to see us until we are close enough for 1 shot. Being mounted or with pet negates. (it's hard to be stealthy with a rancor or on a speeder bike) Make use need to be prone for it to work, but then increase crawl speed as our skill goes up.
- Please keep our invisibility to NPC's exactly the same as it is currently, except increase it's duration.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
- We should be the best at attacking creatures in the game. Give us a bonus to hit creatures.
- Traps are pretty useless. How about a ranger (and Ranger only... no scouts) being able to use them on players and NPC's? They have a pretty hefty delay and never get faster.
What offensive abilities?
- See the above suggestions.
What defensive abilities?
- Have conceal also offer a defensive bonus, even when noticed. Even if you know where a camoflaged target is, it still is harder to hit.
What unique abilities?
- Use traps on NPC's and other players & pets
- Stealth in some way shape or form... see my suggestion above for radar stealth outside of 64m
- Tracking - keep as is.... it's the best skill we get
- Camps - make them usefull again. Have they stay around longer, even while in combat, have them spawn mission terminals to take destroy/explorer missions from. After all, they are Field Bases!
- Be the best at fighting creatures in game
- harvest significantly more from creatures than others... or harvest multiple types at once. After all why waste the bones and meat of a bantha after you have skinned it?
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
- See the camp suggestion above
- Keep the ability to camo others
- Tracking
- Perform recon on targets to assess vulnerabilites and strenghts
How could/should they interact with other professions?
- Rangers should be the primary creature resource gatherers in-game! PERIOD!!! No body should be better and as someone progresses into the ranger field, they should be even better at harvesting... dramatically so.
- See the camp suggestion above
- Use traps (see my suggestion above) to keep players, NPC's, creatures on their toes and off balance in combat
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
- No real combat bonuses except vs creatures. A support class. Dependant on medics for healing, Combat classes for the big damage, artisans as purchasers of our harvests, entertainers for relazation.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
- With the Recon facet in mind... how about a Ranger being able to scout out an anemy base to determine when NPC troops will respawn
- See my above suggestion for radar invisiblity outside of 64m to members of the opposite faction (ifyou are overt)
- Field Bases that add to defense or have some minor turrets for defense.
- Field Bases that spawn faction mission terminals
Those are my 2 cents. I hope you consider at least some of them. Currently the only 2 lines of ranger worth training in are Wayfaring and Tracking... and Wayfaring is getting seriously nerfed (ifthe rumors are to be believed).
Thunderheart wrote:
What defines theRanger role in combat?
Right now, nothing. The Ranger's role in combat should be nothing short of "Outside" and "Wilderness" conditions. The master Ranger should be able to place his camp for the duration of the fight. The camps should be a "mobile base", so to speak.
Traps should also be viable in PVP. They should apply a state-effect on par with the PVE traps. For instance, a "Soonic Boom" trap should cause a short stun effect within a 5m radius.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Traps should be the only combat element for the Ranger. Everythign else should be based on their skills with the weapon. i.e. pistol, carbine, rifle, brawler, etc.
What offensive abilities?
Traps, traps, and more traps.
What defensive abilities?
I've alwaysthought that a ranger should be able to out-run anyone on foot. Be it a bounty hunter or a squad leader. The only Terrain Negotiation bonuses that a Ranger has is applied for crawling. Not many have the need for moving while prone except the rifleman.
What unique abilities?
Traps, and personal terraing negotiation that applies to flat-terrain. Not just prone.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
The advantage of having a ranger in a group should be the simple fact that they have a "base" that can be placed anywhere. It shouldn't go down when the ranger enters combat, and it should even pose some defenes abilities.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
By selling organic resources. PVE is the main concern with Ranger, but they need a purpose in the GCW as well.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
The ranger camps should be absolutely VITAL in an outdoor PVP environment. If a group of players are planning a siege against a player city, the ranger should be able to deploy a one-time-use base they can station themselves in.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Traps and camps.
Just a quick comment, but I must say that it is interesting that it is interesting that your questions focus a lot on Ranger combat. Many of us on the Ranger board have been thinking about a wider idea for rangers, focusing on wilderness survival and being a master of the outdoors, and I know I, at least, have never really thought of ranger on its own as a combat profession. For an overall idea of what a lot of Rangers are looking for, I agree with Calculus_Entropy in that you should probably take a look at The Outdoorsman(http://members.shaw.ca/nraas/ranger/outdoorsman.html) by our correspondent, NRaas. I'll take a stab at your questions as well, though.
What defines theRanger role in combat?
In general, a ranger should be a stealth fighter. Using concealment tactics, a ranger should be able to sneak up on enemies, and take them by surprise. Generally, this pertains to hunting; the ranger needs to sneak up on creatures and, knowing the creatures' weaknesses, deal massive damage quickly. They should be able to extend these stealth abilities to NPCs and Players as well, because if you can hide from an animal - with increased senses of sight, smell, and hearing over humans - you should easily be able to hid from humanoids themselves. This gives ranger a small role in the GCW, allowing them to scout out the enemy position, and to preform sneak attacks. Still, aside from fighting in the GCW, the rangershould remaina hunting/outdoorsman class.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
There are a few paths that can be used for this. One is to use a ranger-specific weapon for combat. This would establish the ranger as a seperate combat class, however it would force a preference of ranged over melee (or melee over ranged, as the case may be) combat for rangers. If, instead, rangers gain special attacks that can be used with any weapon - these attacks would have damage bonuses against creatures - then the ranger is forced into another combat class. This issue has been debated repeatedly and is a hard problem to solve.
What offensive abilities?
Damage bonuses to creatures, whether in the form of a weapon or special attacks, are vital in order to promote the ranger as a hunting class. As well, rangers need creature to-hit bonuses (applied to ALL weapons during ALL attacks) and dodge bonuses, all significant enough to make us ideal PvE creature hunters
What defensive abilities?
Something akin to creature damage mitigation has been suggested, which would go along with the developer vision of the ranger as a creature combat class. Perhaps also a creature dodge bonus that increases as we move up through the profession.
What unique abilities?
Enhanced camps, traps, harvesting, and maskscent/concealment over scouts. We need additional bonuses and abilities that provide a significant advantage over scouts, so that rangers can be more unique, powerful versions of our novice counterparts.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
Camping needs to be made more important in group outings. An immediate need is for camps to repel agressive creatures. We also need something akin to a garage in high level camps, so that groups staying abroad can fix vehicles (for an increased price, of course). Camps need to stop disbanding during combat, so that a Field "Base" can actually be a base of operations on a hunt, rather than a quickly used camp for a ten-second heal. Traps also need to be improved for group combat. AoE traps need to cause more effects, so that they have a greater advantage over scout traps. Perhaps a snare or root AoE trap could be added as well, for when a group is getting massacred by too many creatures. And again, creature combat bonuses are vital, allowing a ranger to lead a hunt, rather than staying in the back until it is time to harvest.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Selling resources to other professions should be our key way of making money, so we need to have huge harvesting bonuses over scouts. A scout who has mastered a combat class can harvest faster than a ranger who has not, jsut for the sole ability to kill more creatures faster, and this should not be so. Rangers need to be the best harvesters. period. In combat, rangers would make a good foil to creature handler pets. A ranger should be able to use traps on CH pets, snaring or rooting them and making the creature's master more vulnerable.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
See above on CH pets. Rangers should be able to run faster, possibly using kiting tactics to slowly wear away an enemy combatant, although they should never be as efficient as a combat class in a one on one fight.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Rangers should be able to preform recon missions, scouting out enemy bases and preparing for attacks. We should be able to disarm mines (A lesser known skill we have in theory, but which doesn't work wellin practice) in preparation for a large scale assault on an enemy base. We need to remain camaflauged from the NPC (and PC) defenses while doing so, with a conceal skill that grows stronger as we advance.
/agree with ErrikksonFLaskhe has a preety good handle on it. Especially TRAPS working on everything at the Ranger level.
You can quote me: Does a bear trap, once it is set in the ground, care if it is a bear paw or a human foot that steps in it? The answer to having traps work on everything and everone is the same as to this question. Sometime the obvious is too obvious.
The Devs made a big thing during Beta about needing crowd control professions in this game. We can't have wizards or mages to use spells so we do the best we can - they said. Well the best they could do would be allow Rangers to help fill that role with their traps. It makes total sense. Smugglers get panic shot - other professions have AE attacks. Why not traps?
If a grenade works on everyone and everthing when thrown by a commando - why doesn't a trap? Nice job with the profession Flask.
I pretty much agree with what already been said. I would like to reenforce these ideas:
What unique abilities?
Radar consealment. traps effect NPCs. a unique range weapon (ie blowgun). It could be loaded like a fishing pole and have multi dart types (ie dizzy, KD and slow).