Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Roundtable Discussion: GCW and TEFs
Krayvex
Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:05 am
#105
I do have to say after reading these, I like the idea of an instant switch to overt and getting rid of the tef.
Krayvex
Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:14 am
#106
You have to keep the tef (or some sort of penalty) for a covert healing a tef'd or overt player. The idea of a raid where the enemy doctors are not attackable is absurd. Raids would be pointless and last forever if covert docs could run around rezzing and curing everyone without risk.
You could argue that buffs are different. True, they're not in the same category as a heal or cure, but why do you have to buff declared players if you're a covert? You don't have to. It's your choice. You know the risk. Be willing to pay the price. Lots of buff docs say "no overts". They don't get tefs. What's the problem?
JanuHull
Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:40 am
#107
I've long tried to suggest (as Rorenikibi) that the TEF system be replaced with a Temporary Overt Flag.
Basically, you bypass the TEF's half in, half out for just making a player PvP active for participating in factioned activities. The Group TEF opens too many doors for griefers while making non-PvP player's live miserable by leaving them open to a free shot. The TEF just doesn't work right.
Krayvex
Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:45 am
#108
JanuHull wrote:
I've long tried to suggest (as Rorenikibi) that the TEF system be replaced with a Temporary Overt Flag.
Basically, you bypass the TEF's half in, half out for just making a player PvP active for participating in factioned activities. The Group TEF opens too many doors for griefers while making non-PvP player's live miserable by leaving them open to a free shot. The TEF just doesn't work right.
Why temporary? Why not make them truely overt, no refunds, no timer,when they get involved?
(not starting a war, just starting a discussion)
Kade_Deveron
Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:55 am
#109
It seems to me the most straightforward fix to all of these problems is to remove TEFs and to remove covert players ability to interact with the GCW (ie no healing overts, no attacking factioned NPCs, etc). Functionally coverts should act as neutrals until they go to faction recruiters and go overt. This adjustment would fix a ton of problems. However, a few items need special attention:
1. Coverts should not be allowed to enter faction bases until they are overt to prevent cycle reset abuses.
2. Players in combat should not be allowed to enter houses.
Keltorr
Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:13 am
#110
Make PvP (except for Jedi) Overts Only. No overt should be able to attack a covert, and no covert should be able to attack an overt. TEFs should be gained only by a covert who attacks an enemy NPC, and that TEF would make the covert vulnerable only to enemy NPCs, not enemy players. This way we won't have buffed and superarmored overts going around killing low level factioned players doing missions while avoiding other overts of their own strength, and this will eliminate the issue of Group TEF.
With Jedi, who are usually covert, allow only overts of the opposite faction to attack them. It's ridiculous allowing covert players to attack other covert players apart from dueling.
Rebel players who are scanned by stormies should only take a TEF, not get turned overt.
It should not take an in-game hour to go from overt to covert. Make it about 15 minutes instead.
Shuttling players with TEFs should get non-TEF protection just like shuttling overts, so that they cannot be attacked while loading. In the same way, loading players should be immune to Imperial scanning for contraband.
saxmahoney
Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:16 am
#111
The problem I see about removing the GTEF, which not only is a good idea, it is NECESSARY to the game, is that once you die, you are no longer overt, no more battle, that's it. Something needs to be done to make declaring a bit easier so taht after you clone you CAN get back into battle, without waiting 15 minutes to shuttle, declare, shuttle back. I don't want something that allows you to attack right out of a clone center (which would be what Gtefing is used for now anyway). Three options:
1) Cloning overt option for nearby battles
2) Ability to go overt with certain people around, without having to shuttle to distant planets/cities to get to a recruiter
3) Rework part of the TEF system involved in groups.
I think the problems with GTEFing need to seen first, and that is the FIRST STRIKE capability without being overt. How are you rewarding someone that has the courage and skills to go overt and back it up, when someone can come along and attack without you being able to have the first strike. Let me say this...
***ONLY OVERTS SHOULD HAVE FIRST STRIKE CAPABILITIES***
Make it so that if you are not grouped and overt, you attack a grouped overt with several non-overts in the area. You can already attack the overt, but in the current system you get ganged up on by the rest of the group. I propose that once you attack the overt, it is YOU who can attack the grouped coverts. Now the downside...it would make more one-on-one battles, and the rest of the group can't get involved. Put in a timer, once you attack the overt, YOU can see who else you can attack, and make like a 10-30 second timer until they can attack. They don't get first strike, but you can't just keep them out of the battle.
The point is, that TEFs in general make things awkward ESPECIALLY when combined with a group. There is no easy way to balance it out so that overts get the benefit of DECLARING and keep what I think should be their first strike capability, while allowing non-overts to become part of the battle which keeps things interesting and allows battles to grow and become something that can be a lot of fun, rather than just 5 vs 5 and it's over with.
With cloning, why not make it similar to shuttling in overt or something. You clone (make the cloning center a no-battle area) and after 1 minute, you go overt again. Even if GTEF'ing is still a part of the game like it is now, this change alone will at least make it so people aren't FORCED to gtef because they didn't have the OPPORTUNITY to go overt. Make it so it's an "option" too and only with a battle within that city's limits or something. (I'm thinking of theed right now since that seems to be a hotspot on kettemoor). If a battle is within city limits, and you are overt and die (while in a group fighting the opposing force), you have an option to clone overt, where you clone, and for 60 seconds cannot attack, or be attacked, and can't camp int he cloning center (again, make it a no-battle zone).
These are quite a few ideas, and I don't think ANY of them are too outlandish, or strange, or difficult to implement. Just something that needs to be looked at. I tried to look at the problems and solutions and show their pros/cons, so that we don't fix one thing and break 2 others. Maybe this is useful info. any comments?
Keltorr
Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:29 am
#112
The PvP decay bug must be fixed. For those who don't know what this is...if you die in factioned PvP and leave your cloning window open about 4-5 minutes without actually cloning, when you finally do clone your insurance will all be lost and all your items will have taken decay--this is exactly the opposite of how the devs meant it to be. The CSRs are aware of this problem but claim they cannot reimburse condition points on your items that are lost due to this bug.
Again I'm going to say that PvP should be overt only except for Jedi. Covert non-jedi should not be able to attack covert Jedi in any case except agreed upon dueling. Covert non-Jedi should not be able to attack any overts, except in duels. Overts should not be able to attack any coverts, except in duels or Jedi hunting. If you attack an enemy NPC you should get a TEF that makes you vulnerable only to other enemy NPCs temporarily. Not enemy players. This would put an end to buffed/armored overts picking on lower level factioned mission takers, and group TEF which many people seem to find irritating.
JanuHull
Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:53 am
#113
Krayvex wrote:
JanuHull wrote:
I've long tried to suggest (as Rorenikibi) that the TEF system be replaced with a Temporary Overt Flag.
Basically, you bypass the TEF's half in, half out for just making a player PvP active for participating in factioned activities. The Group TEF opens too many doors for griefers while making non-PvP player's live miserable by leaving them open to a free shot. The TEF just doesn't work right.
Why temporary? Why not make them truely overt, no refunds, no timer,when they get involved?
(not starting a war, just starting a discussion)
Because the temporary activation goes back to the consentual nature of PvP in this game. Its still ONLY a temporary change for those not interested in open PvP, but still willing to risk acting for their faction.
rjbacigalupo
Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:59 am
#114
This may belong in the smuggler forums, but perhaphs opposite factions could only trade via a smuggler with a special skill/droid/terminal etc.
I-B_Bangin
Tue Jun 22, 2004 11:27 am
#115
I'd just like to say...
In the real world (HISS BOO) sneaky people get first strike. People parading around in uniform OVERTLY part of an enemy army are unsuspecting of COVERTS until they strike.
Making PVP Overt only would be a terrible mistake and it would ruin a good portion of the game.
I'm all in favor of the Temporary Overt Flag. Simply make the TEF make you bright and alarming RED. Maybe we get a system message too.
If you remove hidden ambushes and the like from the game, then you are removing one of the more interesting aspects. It's easy to see if someone is in a party or not.
Like I said earlier, in condensed format:
1. Add more conditions for TEF. Hell, allow neutrals who tradeor healOverts to gain a TEF to the opposing faction. Ever hear of 'Death by Association'? That would be funny (whiners may now begin to cry).
2.TEF makes you OVERT temporarily.
3.No one in combat or with a party member in combat can issue or accept a group invitation.
4. Force clone from PVP death to a non-player city clone center on the same planet. With massive wounds.
5.Grouping with an OVERT does nothing until combat. If you are COVERT you can either aid your comrade (enemies who fire on your OVERT gain GTEF if in group) by attacking the enemies with TEF or healing him to get a TEF yourself. Same as now.
6. Nerf Doctor buffs. 3000+ HAM is silly. Have it double HAM at best and last less than 1 hour. Buffs are the single most ignorant aspect of this entire game, and is the real problem behind all the GCW issues (or so I say).
Most of my whine comes from not even being able to harm someone buffed with Master Pistoleer. I'm also Master Doc, so I know what I'm talking about when I talk about the buffs. Anyone who can't attack mind is dead.
Taphm
Tue Jun 22, 2004 12:40 pm
#117
I know I have never posted here, but this time I have to. Despite the flame I know is going to come our way, I have to agree with I-B Bangin on this. Removal of the TEF is NOT going to make the game any better. On top of that, anyone that thinks all members of a group should where one person is overt should be overt so that they can seem them all is just a lame whiner. Look at real life folks ... I dont see US troops in Iraq seeing all the hidden opponents before they strike. This game is about a civil war for gods sake, its all about the hidden ambushes, the wondering if the one target you spotted is alone, and looking over your shoulder at the guy across the way leaning against his speeder who is watching you funnylike, is he part of the rebel scum forces that have been striking from the shadows???
And about coverts sneaking into bases ... what part ofCOVERT says CIVILIAN??? Just because your covert should not prevent you from entering enemy bases ... as no one on here heard of covert operations???
Lets face it, the TEF system has its annoyances, like getting kicked out of a player city med center when you you try to heal on overt player, and some of the other similar things, but the surprise attacks by groups of insurgents are what make it a CIVIL war. If any player wants to walk around overt strutting his/her stuff then they should be prepared for the consequences.