Development Cycle Archive

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Hylidex wrote:

...encourage anyone who has direct contact with the customer base to play the game with the users.

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

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Calandryll_SOE wrote:

Oh and just to be clear, funny as in "coincidence", no funny as in "ha ha". I tend to post with a fairly conversational voice.I'd hate to have to stop that because my choice of words gets used against me.

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Man....you came to the wrong place.

You'll want to start assuming your words will be used against you...probably safer that way.

Ask TH. I know whereof I speak.

/bow

Respectfully,

Message Edited by TheRealTK421 on 01-11-2005 02:43 PM

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My first of impression of Calandryll is that he is a FAR, FAR, FAR better communicator than TH. I can read one of Calandryll's post and walk away feeling good (even if I dont agree with it) about what I just read, because what he just wrote was clear and concise. There doesnt seem to be alot of grey area in what he says, which is a good thing. TH seems to have gotten better (as well he should), but still has a LONG way to go.

IMHO, communication is paramount ineverything. Especially people that involvedas being the proverbial string between two cans (one can representing the dev team/programmers and the other representing the player base).

My biggest complain with the red letter folks is the fact that their posts tend to be vague; ambiguous at best. SOE_Tyrant does a bang up job in letting you know where he stands, thou.

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Flatfingers wrote:

Bug Lists

With respect to particular items you mentioned, I am especially looking forward to the bug lists. As someone who got into project management a few years ago, I found that a public list of items being worked --including their severity and status -- was the single most effective action I could take to improve communication between my developers and our customers. So I applaud your decision to improve this; I think you'll find it helps all of us.

I do havea question regarding the specific implementation of this feature. Let me quote you:

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Calandryll_SOE wrote:

Bugs
We’re currently planning on creating bug list posts along with information on the status of the bug. On a regular basis, we are going to compile “Top 3” bug lists for each profession and post these in a thread. This post would also include information about the bug’s status, such as whether it is assigned or not, an ETA for a fix (if there is one), if we can’t reproduce it and need more information, etc.

We’ll be working with our Correspondents, our Customer Support Representatives, and the posts from the Professions boards to create these lists. This bug list will not be a list of EVERY bug we are working on though.This bug list thread will also detail fixed bugs from the top 3 lists and general bugs sent in through other means so that you can see we aren’t just concentrating on the top 3 lists.

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Will the Core Systems board be one of the boardsincluded in this list (since it'smaintained in this forum alongsidethe Professions boards)?

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Rothin wrote:

For everything that has a Correspondent, we'll submit our Top 3 to them to be considered and prioritized. Everyone should be represented by their respective Correspondent.

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Thanks, Rothin! I was hoping that was the case, and I appreciate the clarification.

Of course, people are now going to enjoyplaying the new"Things That Have No Correspondent" game....

--Flatfingers

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RankorCity wrote:

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

You'll want to start assuming your words will be used against you...probably safer that way.

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My first of impression of Calandryll is that he is a FAR, FAR, FAR better communicator than TH. I can read one of Calandryll's post and walk away feeling good (even if I dont agree with it) about what I just read, because what he just wrote was clear and concise. There doesnt seem to be alot of grey area in what he says, which is a good thing. TH seems to have gotten better (as well he should), but still has a LONG way to go.

IMHO, communication is paramount ineverything. Especially people that involvedas being the proverbial string between two cans (one can representing the dev team/programmers and the other representing the player base).

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RankorCity wrote:

SOE_Tyrant does a bang up job in letting you know where he stands, thou.

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This is likely due to the fact that he has a bazooka in his office. /shudder

And...I do not say that in jest.


/bow

Respectfully,

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Flatfingers wrote:

Great stuff, Jonathan. Not only are the specific actions you've described all very good ideas, but yourcommunication of them is extremely well done and augurs well for the future of SWG.

Naturally, I have some questions.

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A "Forum Issues" Board

The first one is easy: Will you also be adding aboard to discuss forum features? Now that most of the login issues have been addressed, I'd expect that most messageson aForum Issues boardwould be useful suggestions.

For example, although the recent change to forum rankings was discussed in a message, most forum users weren't aware of the discussion and didn't know where to look forthis messagewhen the rankingsystem changed. A Forum Issuesboard would have been the obvious place to go.

As another example,I've been asking for months now for improved and corrected Advanced Search features... but where is the appropriate place for me to do so? If I ask in the Technical Issues board, that messge is considered off-topic... but it's not an unreasonable request, since good search features will help to reduce people asking the same questions over and over again.

I recognize (and share) your concern that new forums shouldbe limited to minimize places where random flamage can occur... but honestly, you already have that problem, and will have it no matter what boards you create or maintain. The solution -- as you correctly observe -- is to consistently enforce the rules about being courteous and on-topic.

By providing an appropriate location for useful suggestions your customers are motivated to make, anew Forum Issues boardwould help toimprove our communication with you... and, as forum features are implemented, our communicationamong ourselves.

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This is an interesting idea and one I had not considered. I'm not sure what the long-term use of such a forum would be though. It might be interesting to consider a website forum, so you all can give us feedback on what you want to see on the site. We aren't ready to start talking about additions to the site yet though, but when we are, we could include forum ideas as part of a forum about the website. The search feature is also on my list of things to ask about btw.

Bug Lists

With respect to particular items you mentioned, I am especially looking forward to the bug lists. As someone who got into project management a few years ago, I found that a public list of items being worked --including their severity and status -- was the single most effective action I could take to improve communication between my developers and our customers. So I applaud your decision to improve this; I think you'll find it helps all of us.

I do havea question regarding the specific implementation of this feature. Let me quote you:

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Calandryll_SOE wrote:

Bugs
We’re currently planning on creating bug list posts along with information on the status of the bug. On a regular basis, we are going to compile “Top 3” bug lists for each profession and post these in a thread. This post would also include information about the bug’s status, such as whether it is assigned or not, an ETA for a fix (if there is one), if we can’t reproduce it and need more information, etc.

We’ll be working with our Correspondents, our Customer Support Representatives, and the posts from the Professions boards to create these lists. This bug list will not be a list of EVERY bug we are working on though.This bug list thread will also detail fixed bugs from the top 3 lists and general bugs sent in through other means so that you can see we aren’t just concentrating on the top 3 lists.

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Will the Core Systems board be one of the boardsincluded in this list (since it'smaintained in this forum alongsidethe Professions boards)?

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Yes.

Encouraging Customer Ideas

I also have a question concerning ideas. Let me quote you again:

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General Discussions or Idea Forums
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Ideas forums are a little trickier. On the surface, these seem like a good idea. But in practice they are an invitation for a lot of hurt feelings. The fact is there is no way we could ever implement every idea posted on this board. In fact, we’d be lucky if even 1% of the ideas made it in the game. The reasons for this can be anything from the idea just wouldn’t work, doesn’t fit our current goals, is too complicated, etc. Most of the really useful feedback we get from you all is on designs that are in concept, in development, or even in testing. It is that feedback that has the best chance to catch our attention and affect change. So what usually happens with these forums is that while they may be read by developers, we rarely have the time to respond to them because we have to focus our efforts on the threads that have the most immediate impact.

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I sense that you're treading carefully with these remarks.

While I understand that this is your decision, I hope you'll remain open to reconsidering it. Bearing in mind that there's a customer perception issue to be navigated here, from the point of view of a developer I've found that it's useful to allow (and even encourage) anopenness to"crazy ideas." Of course you can't implement every idea; of course you'll spend time slogging through repetitive or even bad ideas; of courseyou can't even implement 1% of the good ideas... but is it really true that customers don't need to be encouraged to independently come up with ideas?

My experience has been that it's worthwading through a lot of bad ideas to encouragethat oneoutstandingly innovative idea thatmy teamwould never have imagined. It is absolutely in no way a criticism of the clever people working on SWG that they can't think of everything themselves -- it's just not possible for people close to a system to see all the opportunities for improving that system. So why limit the vastly larger number of your customers from proposing ideas beyondmere tweaks to the few concepts you can offer in the In Concept and In Development boards?

Furthermore, it's worth soothing the occasional ruffled feathers of those whose ideas aren't used or specifically encouraged to get the one really great idea. In fact, I've found that it's not even necessary to encourage each and every person who offers an idea -- just the occasional "well done" to someone who comes up with a novel idea and communicates it effectivelyis enough to encourage others to follow suit for weeks to come. Months of neglect, on the other hand, can only lead your most positive customers to conclude that you just don't care about constructive, positive engagement, and to leave the forum and possibly even the game. And that's a loss to the entire community.

But it doesn't have to be that way! The bottom line is that one "insanely great" idea can make a product so much better for all of its usersthat as a cost/benefit tradeoff, it's worth dealing with a lot of junk to get thatidea. Consequently, I respectfully disagree with the decision that an idea forum (whether a new forum by that name or the Core Systems forum) doesn't need to exist, and that those forum users who consistently offer constructive new ideas don't need to be actively encouraged. I think you're missing a valuable opportunity to improve SWG (and your bottom line) by not adopting a policy ofregularlyencouraging your forum users to "think outside the skillbox."

Analytical, "why-it-can't-work" thinkingcan definitely be useful... but so can constructive, "this-could-attract-more-users" thinking. In fact, it is constructive thinking that leads to theorder-of-magnitude improvements in products that in turnlead directly to increased revenues andindustry leadership. The companies that excel recognize this.

I hope you'll consider this suggestion in the constructive spirit in which it's offered.

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Well, players can post ideas in the professions forums and in any thread where the idea is on-topic. So if someone had a "crazy idea" involving Combat Medics, they are more than welcome to post it in that forum. Likewise there is nothing stopping a player from posting an idea in Core Systems.

I get what you are saying though and I think it goes back to the bigger issue of having some systems that players want to talk about but not being sure where to post it. Our goal is to solve that. Ideas forums tend to set the wrong expectations though.So instead of having a specific forum dedicated to posting any idea under the sun, players should feel comfortable with posting ideas in the specific forums that the idea is connected to. I hope that makes sense.

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Meanwhile, thanks again for taking this positive step toward improving community relations!

--Flatfingers

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And thank you for posting such good feedback!

Message Edited by Calandryll_SOE on 01-11-2005 03:14 PM

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Flatfingers wrote:

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Rothin wrote:

For everything that has a Correspondent, we'll submit our Top 3 to them to be considered and prioritized. Everyone should be represented by their respective Correspondent.

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Thanks, Rothin! I was hoping that was the case, and I appreciate the clarification.

Of course, people are now going to enjoy playing the new "Things That Have No Correspondent" game....

--Flatfingers

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DND_Cas wrote:

Ideas forums are a little trickier. On the surface, these seem like a good idea. But in practice they are an invitation for a lot of hurt feelings. The fact is there is no way we could ever implement every idea posted on this board. In fact, we’d be lucky if even 1% of the ideas made it in the game. The reasons for this can be anything from the idea just wouldn’t work, doesn’t fit our current goals, is too complicated, etc. Most of the really useful feedback we get from you all is on designs that are in concept, in development, or even in testing. It is that feedback that has the best chance to catch our attention and affect change. So what usually happens with these forums is that while they may be read by developers, we rarely have the time to respond to them because we have to focus our efforts on the threads that have the most immediate impact.

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Guess someones going to have to ask the glass half empty question just to keep up apperances

Whats the point of the profession forums and correspondents then?

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

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RankorCity wrote:

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TheRealTK421 wrote:

You'll want to start assuming your words will be used against you...probably safer that way.

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My first of impression of Calandryll is that he is a FAR, FAR, FAR better communicator than TH. I can read one of Calandryll's post and walk away feeling good (even if I dont agree with it) about what I just read, because what he just wrote was clear and concise. There doesnt seem to be alot of grey area in what he says, which is a good thing. TH seems to have gotten better (as well he should), but still has a LONG way to go.

IMHO, communication is paramount ineverything. Especially people that involvedas being the proverbial string between two cans (one can representing the dev team/programmers and the other representing the player base).

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RankorCity: Just so you know...my post wasin jest and good-nature.

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RankorCity wrote:

SOE_Tyrant does a bang up job in letting you know where he stands, thou.

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This is likely due to the fact that he has a bazooka in his office. /shudder

And...I do not say that in jest.


/bow

Respectfully,

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I fully got that your post was in jest, but IMHO, there is a great deal of truth to it.

Quite a few players BLAST TH when he makes a post about an anticipated/planned change, because he is unclear in his explanation of the change. He also gets blasted because they dont LIKE the change, but there is no way around that. I'll conceed that all it takes is ONE person to get the wrong impression, then the posts follow like dominoes based on that one players wrong impression. Then everyone has the wrong impression.

If TH were clear on what he is saying, that could be avoided.

Yeah, I have heard Tyrant has a bazooka on his desk. So I am a little confused as to how Commando could stay in the sad shape its been in for so long. I guess he cant show favorites, but Commando needs ALOT of help.

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Leana_Txorana wrote:

Hmmmm... every hear about the Core Systems board. If fact all of these fit quite will in this forum

The one great idea I saw was move the Core Systems out of professions. Many people (see above) dont seem to know about it so they post in the first forum they see. Move Core Systems to the main forum listing.

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The only problem I see with doing that is that it would just become the General Discussion forum by default, much like the Game Guides forum has become. I'm pretty sure that's why the Core Systems forum wasn't put on the front page to begin with.

*edit* this is what I get for replying without having read all the other replies...

Message Edited by DeQuosaek on 01-11-2005 04:07 PM

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Rothin wrote:

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Flatfingers wrote:

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Rothin wrote:

For everything that has a Correspondent, we'll submit our Top 3 to them to be considered and prioritized. Everyone should be represented by their respective Correspondent.

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Thanks, Rothin! I was hoping that was the case, and I appreciate the clarification.

Of course, people are now going to enjoy playing the new "Things That Have No Correspondent" game....

--Flatfingers

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Nah.. technically that all falls back into Core Systems.. poor poor KStarfire. lol

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KStarfire wrote:

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Rothin wrote:

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Flatfingers wrote:

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Rothin wrote:

For everything that has a Correspondent, we'll submit our Top 3 to them to be considered and prioritized. Everyone should be represented by their respective Correspondent.

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Thanks, Rothin! I was hoping that was the case, and I appreciate the clarification.

Of course, people are now going to enjoy playing the new "Things That Have No Correspondent" game....

--Flatfingers

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Nah.. technically that all falls back into Core Systems.. poor poor KStarfire. lol

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And for the record i already submitted 3

Loot nofitications, droid/pets not being called from the toolbar, and unable to drop Padawan status.

KStarfire

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JimerLins wrote:

I'll chip in here- the profession and correspondent forums are more focused and provide a place where specific issues can be discussed, and not a lot of pie in the sky.


Actually...we do both, sorta. Details and 'pie in the sky' stuff can all be fair game. It's all good. What matters more is managing expectations so that they stay realistic.


I've posted my share of "wouldn't this be cool" threads, but I know that there's about a snowball's chance in (insert your favorite hot place here) they'll make it into the game in any form as my idea.


Don't be so sure...it depends on the idea, how well it's 'sold' and whether or not it might have any 'juice' behind it from other players.

If you use any of the new Droid feature (from the 2nd DE revamp) like a Harvest module, Bomb droid or Entertainer droid and others...you're using some idea that was (very likely) put up by someone just like you.

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