Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Declaring overt
exactly! war isn't SAFE! these people should be able to attack overts at any time, that's part of the danger of being overt. Coverts would not be subject to attack.
the only problem that i can think of here would be "why should you ever be overt, unless your attacking someone?". this would mean that people wouldn't be overt and ambushable unless they were interested in a fight. there wouldn't be that many ambushes because there wouldn't be that many people to ambush.
i'm not sure if a change like this would increase or decrease participation in the GCW, but it would be interesting to see, wouldn't it?
you could try it on the test server and see. (oh, no one plays on the test server. or not enough to test dynamics of groups.) i suggest that you announce (and then follow through) that you are going to relax (slightly relax if you want to decrease the number of people you attract) the rules on unlocking a FSCS on the test center.
problem: this isn't fair to the people who are working SO hard on their regular FSCS.
solution1: a FSCS unlocked on the TC would only be playable ON the TC and/or would only last for one character, and would be terminated on permadeath.
solution2: you could announce this rule after the first FSCS gets unlocked, to reduce the amount of unfair-ness. (i don't think this is as good as solution1)
what do you think?
Holocron wrote:
That would let you move in armies of safe people to the location of a fight, and have them all go overt at once and ambush...
I really think that random timers on overt status could greatly mitgate this. The first few unfortunate souls who "overted" the first 10sec would get blown away while waiting for the reinforcements to "overt". If a 10sec-2min timer isn't enough than just increase the timers (1sec-10min).
Clone centers would still be a problembut they have been, are now, and will be in the future.Regardlessof any change clone centers(and possibly shuttleports)need to be interdicted during a raids. Maybe this couldbe a faction perk. I think most players would be ok with this as long as they got an explination of what was happening.
IE: Some onedies outside Corrnet and is cloned there, but Corrent is currently under Imperial interdiction they then get a message when cloning to the effect of:
In the interested of your personal safety and no further cost to yourself your clone data has been transfered to our Kor Vellafacility.This wasdone in complancewith ImperialDirective 403 with thank you for your time a patience with this matter 
The same could be done with starports and shuttleports( getting a message to the effect that Corrnet is currently being interdicted by the Imperial Cruiser Reaver). If this causes some minor grief to some players then so be it there should be some rough edges to life when your in the middle of the war. The occasional reminded I think would do people some good.
I see several people referring to the possibility of "going overt any time you want to" as the same as a RTEF. lets sit down and look at the differences
RTEF
When you come out, you can attack the ONE person who DB'd you, and thats it
Overt Anytime
Once you declare overt, you are a target to EVERYONE, and you can attack EVERYONE as well
these, in my opinion, are big differences. if you aren't quick enough to notice a red dot showing up on your radar to defend yourself, then you don't deserve the combat skills you supposedly earned.
another solution could be, if you are in view of a person that is going overt, you can receive a system message that is telling you that this person is revealing themself. say, have a 30 second timer, in which all in view of the covert to overt soldier are given this system message, that says at the end of 30 seconds said soldier will be fully overt, and able to attack/be attacked at will.
this gives people time to run away, and prepare to fight, while not leaving the covert to overt guy completely vulnerable.
I could see this working, but are you thinking of any other commands to go along with it? A /command for pulling out pets? How is this going to work in player cities?
-Raph Koster
Doesn't grouping coverts/overts acheive that same thing right now? Granted its not a total ambush, but it practically is. Whats max group size? 20 players? You only need 1 overt, for 19 covert players to make an ambush. It's the same thing really.
So basically you can transport a large army perfectly safe, and all you need is 2-3 overts(and thats like 40-60 people right there...).
Then the overts just stand around, and when they are attacked, all those coverts can now target the person who attacked the overt. People do this all the time, and I'm sure while many say this is a good tactic and creates for suspense, I think it's just pretty lame.
I think the /declareovert command is a good idea, but I dont see it really changing the fundamental problems with the whole TEF/covert/overt system. I think it needs to be either trashed, or re-worked from the ground up. Right now PvP is a confusing system of random people attacking you, you dying, then trying to figure out which of the myriad of things you did in the last 5 minutes that made you attackable.
The only time things seem to make sense is overts fighting overts. They know who the enemy is, and they can see it coming.
If you want to witness the true flaws of the overt/covert system check out Bestine on any server Im sure. You'll have overt Imperials being gunned down in the center of city(front of Starport) with 50 coverts standing around doing whatever it is they do, but paying no attention to the factional combat taking place 5 feet in front of them, and generally not being able to help out. It's always satisfying to be murdered in a factional stronghold, surrounded by your "brothers in arms" who are incapable or unwilling to help, simply because they dont want to get involved in the mess that is PvP.
Larathorn wrote:
My opinion, make it so you can declare Overt anywhere, anytime. To become Covert you have to go back to the recruiter and wait an hour. There is no reason that I should have to be within 50m to put on my uniform or flash my military ID and fight for my ideals.
That would let you move in armies of safe people to the location of a fight, and have them all go overt at once and ambush...
-Raph Koster,
Creative Director
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Alright. I could see this as a problem Holo when you are talking about an army of people. How about expanding this a bit and allowing\adding a \declareOvert & \declareCovert (with timers ofcourse to prevent abuse as well as not being able to switch during combat)to the Underworld tree that can be executed anywhere (or how about reducing the time it takes to go covert for a smuggler with a certain Underworld skill level)? Since Smugglers are more of the sneakier(aka spy\rogue type profession) professions I would think that this may fit in well, this would seem to be not such a bad idea (IMHO anyhow) and would add to the factional benefits of smuggling for the Rebellion or Empire.
I'm sure there are lots of holes in my suggestion (room for abuse and such), but I thought I would throw it out there as it would seem to fit into the Underworld skill tree (in my mind anyhow).
Raph,
That's a good point, but there's a couple solutions....
1) If you are thinking about how that would affect factional base attacks, that method is nullified by a covert detector. Improved range and HPs on these would really be an excellent addition. Most well defended HQ's have these already. If you are thinking about how it affects town battles, well, it probably won't affect it much. The way the raids are played now 1 group comes in completely covert then has a single player drop in overt to get the group attacked TEF and start the fun. Not much different than having them all /declare at once. ATM, we all know the attack is coming, we are just looking for when the overt arrives to get the battle started.
2) Requiring a PC of high rank to be overt and allows overt makes the most sense to me. I suggest you require the overt PC to type a command, /allowovert or /declare, to keep it from being a proximity only thing. The msg could be similar to joining a group "Nail invites you to declare your allegiance to the Rebellion", hit okay, and into battle you go. The RP element of it would be similar to an order from an officer...except its voluntary . This way you avoid the "ambush" element and also avoid the recruiter camping. It also gives ppl a reason to climb rank.
Holocron wrote:
Larathorn wrote:
My opinion, make it so you can declare Overt anywhere, anytime. To become Covert you have to go back to the recruiter and wait an hour. There is no reason that I should have to be within 50m to put on my uniform or flash my military ID and fight for my ideals.
That would let you move in armies of safe people to the location of a fight, and have them all go overt at once and ambush...
Yeah, so?!? THe Vietcong in Vietnam had no problem doing that, as well as a myriad of other rebels that have fought in conflicts throughout the history of our world.
xpointmanx wrote:
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Players of a factional rank should be allowed to /declare at will.. --if you must,.. you can give it a two min timer.. Still allow instant declarations through a recruiter..
Ok, how bout this.... Let folks declare anytime they want BUT give them a two minute timer where they become overt and attackable, but unable to initiate attack with the opposite faction until after the timer expires.
This would make it so that folks wanting to use the freedom of being able to declare away from a faction recruiter would have to make sure they do it in a safe location. I kinda envision this how they are going to handle TEF's with the Jedi except with an added safety to avoid abuse.
This would help eliminate the ambushesthat Holo is concerned with.
Grouf
Holocron wrote:
Larathorn wrote:My opinion, make it so you can declare Overt anywhere, anytime. To become Covert you have to go back to the recruiter and wait an hour. There is no reason that I should have to be within 50m to put on my uniform or flash my military ID and fight for my ideals.
That would let you move in armies of safe people to the location of a fight, and have them all go overt at once and ambush...
Isn't that almost the same as battlefeilds? Except that a lot of the battlefeilds are off in remote locations and rarely work. Drop a battlefeild right between bestine and anchorhead and allow it to work properly. Lots of people would use the battlefeilds if it wasn't for a 10 minute run back out to them, the wait to re-join battle or even enter the battlefeild if you had been in combat recently.
If we were allowed to declare from opposing recruiters with the /declare command it would allow some ambushes to take place yet allow the defending side to brace themselves as they saw a bunch of dots gathering around their base. With only a 2 hour window per day of vulnerability this would help create some of the epic battles. Since revenge TEF is supposedly fixed declaring makes you a target instantly. Even if we were to walk by bestine and use the declare in the presence of the opposing recruiter we would still be marked for death. Revenge TEF was the major issue that needed to be addressed. IF its working correctly on TC right now its going to be an entirely new ball game.
Holocron wrote:
Larathorn wrote:My opinion, make it so you can declare Overt anywhere, anytime. To become Covert you have to go back to the recruiter and wait an hour. There is no reason that I should have to be within 50m to put on my uniform or flash my military ID and fight for my ideals.
That would let you move in armies of safe people to the location of a fight, and have them all go overt at once and ambush...
Yes it would, is that bad??
I think that the you are too initiative adverse holocron. That is you seem unwilling in any way to allow one player to gain the initiative over another, except in the now extinct revenge tef, which was just silly for a lot of reasons.
Everything in SWG is about power, it all comes down to dps or a few key specials. That is really kinda sad. At least this would allow for new tactics.
Of course there would be plenty of complaints from the people that made -insert uber pvp template here- and get owned by a bunch of artisans with 4 bubbles of marksmen, but then again the whole concept of uberness bugs me.
I don't know, not really an coherent solutions or suggestions, but PvP in swg just does not feel right. Too forced, too few options, not enough depth...
Maybe it is that I want the depth of PvP of planetside with an underlying economic system to give it purpose.
Oh well...maybe next MMOG...
Raystonn wrote:
"Any more given capability will kill any and all PvE GCW in this game."
There's no such thing as PvE GCW. War is war. Would you be complaining if NPCs' AI routines were sufficiently advanced as to make them fight like players? It sounds to me like you want to participate in the GCW only when it's convenient to you. Sorry, but that's not how war works. When you are a member of one of the two sides of a war that is currently waging, you can expect it to come knocking on yoru door any time of day or night. Your convenience is totally irrelevant. If you don't want the inconvenience of war, then don't sign up for a warring faction. Turning a war into a when-it's-convenient type of thing really kills the whole immersion and destroys any semblance of being true to Star Wars.
-Raystonn
I cannot even begin to describe how wrong you are.
Covert was included for the express ability of players participating in the GCW with the chance of no PvP.It was also ment for Overts to take a break from PvP when they need it.
TEFs were introduced to allow the PvPrs to "Preserve thier immersion" if we kill a Faction NPC in front of them.
I know, because I was there when they introduced this form of combat when they rejected the Outcasting rules.
Try again.
I know i am going to take flak for this, but Holocron said it clearly.
if you allow people to declare anywhere, its the equivalent of a sneak attack.
NOW, I actually dont have a problem with it for the rebels, since really thats what the rebels are for the most part.
hide in the covers of darkness then sneak attack, to me it would be a decent offset to the imbalance that AT-ST bring.
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there should be a Timer on the declaring overt 50m from the terminal like, you must wait 60 seconds to call for ATST's and or combat guys from your datapad.
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I would think that declare anywhere inside the city with the proper timers on calling in support, I think Rebels need the ability to sneak attack.
and I would also like to see a GROUP declare command. when 50 m from the terminal .. with some kind of verification systems along the way.