Development Cycle Archive
Thread: ID#2: Two Changes to Bazaars and Vendors
SUGGESTION:
* * REMOVE THE CATEGORIES ON THE BAZAARS AND VENDORS THAT DO NOT HAVE ITEMS WITHIN THEM * *
This will make is much better when looking for items...if your on a planet with almost nothing on the bazaar, the bazaar will only have categories of the items that are currently on it. Empty categories do NOT get displayed.
Reticulan wrote:
Which doesn't happen since there are hundreds of successful vendors with all levels of stock on every planet that allows vendors... You show me where 1 person or PA has made it so I can only buy a specific item at their store and you have an argument.
Ugh... You completely miss my point, and I'm not gonna bother explaining it for the ump-teenth time.
OK, I have to post to this... its 7:am and I've had no sleep....
Reaction to part 1.... The Cap On Bazaar : 
Open it wide up say to 30K minor don't even bother. A wide open market will encourage competition... Not just have everyone scrambling for theircrummy3k.... Or all you are doing at 6k is inflating the exsisting prices on exsisting products.
Reactionto part 2 ...The 150 item limit on private vendors.
This isWRONG beyond belief. But you know that and wantto have us allsettle back (with a sigh of relief ) when you put the private vendor item cap at somewhere around 300 items. Again, this is WRONG. Ifplayers really dont like a vendor, then like me, they don't go back! 
Instead of penalizing us with limited "if exsistant" excuses like "too many pages to look at" and "Monoplolies" ( a vastly different game BTW ) get to the real meat and spend the dough to fix what already IS!
Fix the program!!! Don't cripple and nerf the players in yet another way.
No one who is not a merchant should not even be posting here much less people incapable of paging threw a vendor,or "GASP" use the item select on the left side.
This has nothing to do with monopolies, and everthing to do with SWG's bad handling of vendor programes from the start.I know it, you know it, and anyone with half a brain knows it too.
If the economy is to be run buy the players then let it alone.
I have One master artisan in my seven accounts on intrepid.
I just, this week, made master craftsmen.
This character lives on a tough world. I have just mastered merchant as well.
Sonow,you want to tell me is that I may not serve my community by providing decent,consistant and affordable product.... That a total of 6 vendors will allow me to sell 900 - 99% droid battries( 5 uses 100credits per which is dirt cheap) ( try actually spending time in game) .....OK seems to me you are now forcing me and everyone else to make thingsOVERWHELMINGLY expensive, as for this merchantcharacter, raising costs due to item limitsit will be the only way to pay taxes, keep weapons and armor, homes, Factories soon and so fourth...
(For the literal minded among you, I am useing batteries as an example)
If you wanted to cripple the ecomomy of the game you maysoon accomplish your goal.
How much do I now have to charge for that humble batterie NOW that I am limited? Given allmy overhead , storage homes, factories.... suddenly my little battery goes from 100 creds to600 or 700credits (don't laughmany gougers do that now). Now, imagine I make guns, or armor instead... You will now have made me a real monoploly particularly as this character is not jumping on the holo band wagon.
(my Main has done that)
So, first idea, not so terriblybad if conservative,
Second idea...any limit is just plain wrong, noworse, it's stupid.
Farve
And Yes, I know my spelling is horrid
Question:
What percentage of items do you sell on your vendor for less than 6k?
XanEldarie wrote:
progman63 wrote:
GnomeAd wrote:
The vendor cap will actually add value to the merchant's ability to place multiple vendors. Currently, it seems that the only people placing multiple vendors are just trying to grind merchant XP.
Adding value to a merchant's ability would be ADDING features or skills, NOT taking them away.
It is adding value because it becomes a necessity, as well as a luxury. The only thing being taken away is the ability to have an "all-in-one" shop. Isn't that kinda what everyone is complaining about Microsoft in the anti-trust suits?
Ok so by that logic you're stating that tailors should do this as well? We have the following clothing sections:
bandoliers, belts, bracelet,bodysuits, cloak, components, dresses, footwear, handwear, headwear, jackets, skirts, necklaces, pants, rings, robes, shirts, vests, and wearable containers.
Now given that these sections all have anywhere between 1 to 38 different items in a SINGLE category, exactly how do you expect us to have a vendor for each particular section?
So, have one for just shirts and pants? Ok sounds reasonable.. IF we want to only have 2 colors of each of course.. and you HAVE to have the old faithfuls (Black/White) so what does that leave you with? Pretty dull vendors.
Sure if a crafter has only 2-3 different items they are able to craft to sell (and I certainly can't think of any crafter with so few) having a vendor for each item would seem rational.. but that is not the case.
Convene wrote:
Limiting the number of items on the vendor is a terrible idea. Those of us who have dedicated countless hours buying, cataloging, marketing, & pricing out thousands of items are dedicated to the business aspect of the game. By limiting the number of items per vendor, you are effectively eliminating a major draw of the game for serious business players.
Personally, I maintain 2 vendors with approx. 2500 items per vendor (plus a fair bit of overstock in storage facilities). It has taken months to acquire & maintain this level of stock. I subcontract bulk orders of items amongst numerous crafters, and thus help spur the economy. Our marketing strategy has been a one-stop shopping source for people who are tired of empty vendors and relatively low breadth of selection on the bazaar. In order to maintain this level of inventory, my partner and myself typically dedicate approx. 40 hours each per week (on top of our existing real-world jobs). We do it, because we enjoy running as real a business as possible. We maintain storage facilities, distribution centers, and even an assembly plant (granted these are houses used for special purposes, but the design solutions to business problems were varied & complex, and ongoing logistics involved in maintaining such an enterprise is immense in "effort overhead"). We maintain spreadsheets itemizing every item we sell, the price, current inventory levels at each location, etc. This alone takes up a rather significant amount of time. Recording sales, corresponding w/ recent customers, determining current buying needs, searching & traversing the galaxy to acquire needed items, negotiating deals w/ sub-contractors, not to mention the normal logistics of resource shifts, maintenance for all equipment & staff, personal crafting, etc. all take a VERY large amount of time & effort. Such effort & dedication should be encouraged, not ground to a halt. There are enough customers out there for everyone...each business person and retail crafter is fulfilling a niche & a need. Do you really only want guilds who can spare the extra vendors to have the only real selection of goods? As an independent gamer, I am somewhat dismayed at the rather consistent pressure to join guilds and/or player cities brought about by the recent attitudes of SWG. If someone wants to join a guild...great!...but why force us all into such potentially unsavory paths?
The point about database issues, not particularly valid in my opinion. The number of items that exist in a game can be regulated by resource scarcity...vs. unfairly limiting a vendor capacity. SWG should take some responsibility in maintaining a robust and scaleable database. We as players pay an awful lot of money each month to play SWG...please take that into account when you consider database scale decisions.
The point about monopolies also does not seem accurate. I purchase many items crafted by other people...and they know that I resell the items (I try to be up-front about such things). Not once have I heard a protest or refusal to sell. The crafter gets his/her asking price, a source of reliable bulk orders, and can then spend credits on other things. In return, I get more stock for sale & boost my depth & breadth of inventory so buyers who are tired of empty vendors & bazaar items that are sold less than honestly (example: armor & weaponry w/ 0 condition, etc.) have a safe and convenient place to shop. Over time, we have developed a reasonably large customer base who are willing to pay a bit more for the convenience & honesty...after all, in this game, time is money...and who wants to worry about the honesty of every seller? I consider it a service we provide, in addition to the goods. We spend the time, effort, and credits to search the galaxy for good deals and quality items so our customers do not have to. Why is this considered a "problem"?
In addition, as a master artisan/architect and novice DE, I would not be able to even stock the a representative breadth of goods for a single profession. What is the point of mastering multiple crafting professions if we can only sell a fraction of the goods? With the ongoing pet nerfs (first loss of aggros, then reduction from 15 to 10), our combat skills are further reduced...leaving us to either change professions, join a guild, contract out exclusively to others (which represents another huge logistical nightmare (let alone the question of honesty), or hawk wares in the streets to move product. Do we really want more street hawking? A little is ok, as it adds to the game, but if everyone is forced to hawk wares in the street, the lag and confusion could seriously detract from game play.
I understand that others may not wish to dedicate the excessive amount of time required to run a business of this magnitude and that is perfectly ok. Those crafters who even wish to simply dabble still have a niche to fill. They often offer goods at a lower price than us. This is great for those customers who prefer a great deal over the time spent shopping. So, why punish those dedicated few who wish to run as "real" an enterprise as possible?
Thank you for your time,
Convene
what he said. well said Convene. Devs please dont miss this post
Higher bazaar cap is good for selling quantities of things like quality stim B's or power-ups. It would be so much easier to just hop onto the nearest bazaar terminal, and search for your items in that city or on that planet, and know exactly where you have to go to pick them up after you've bought them. That would take a lot less time than running all over creation dropping waypoints on every medical vendor and checking their inventories individually. This would work for most items that people buy in bulk: power-ups, medical supplies, resources, crafting components, etc.
However, such a low item limit on vendors would be just as bad as people have said. Like I mentioned above, when people buy things like stim B's or power-ups, they typically buy them in bulk, because they're going to be using a lot of them, but not in massive quantities. That means they would prefer to buy them in crates of reasonable size quantities, at a reasonable price. Nobody really wants to buy their power-ups in crates of 50 for 15,000 credits. So, the merchant will package them in smaller units, typically around 10 to a crate, and mark them with a smaller price tag around 3,000 credits. If a vendor had 100 crates of 50 power-ups selling for 15,000 credits each, and another vendor had 500 crates of 10 power-ups selling for 3,000 credits each, this second vendor would have many many more items listed for sale, however both vendors would have the same number of actual *units* for sale. Placing such a small limit on the inventory of a vendor would either force people to start buying/selling these small items in much much larger crates, or force the vendor to sell a much much smaller number of units in the same sized crates. Obviously, forcing merchants to do something that makes very poor business sense is, well, nonsensical.
Also, many people in this thread have stated the overtly obvious: some crafting classes sell an extremely wide variety of items. Tailors have a large number of items that they can craft, and each one can be crafted in many different colors and patterns, which makes their vendor inventory selections exponentially larger. Armorsmiths, if they were actually selling all types of armor instead of just advanced Ubese and layered Composite 
, would also have a large number of items, in a large variety of colors and types. Weaponsmiths don't have to worry about colors and such, however they *do* have to consider the different requirements that players have for a particular type of weapon; someone may want their laser rifle to have a stock and a scope, while someone else may not want a stock, and yet another customer may want neither. Obviously doctors will have a variety of medicine to sell, and they typically sell those items in very large quantities. An architect's furniture vendor would have dozens of different types of furniture for sale, and many of these items will be commonly purchased in numbers of two to eight.
To sum it up:
1) Improve the database so that it works more effectively and more efficiently. The hardware should grow to meet the needs of the software. The software should not shrink to fit the aging abilities of the database.
2) Improve the merchant class so that it works more effectively and more efficiently. Again, the merchant class should not shrink to fit the aging abilities of the database.
3)Pray for the ignorant playersto experience an epiphany, so they will realize that the "Next Items" button will actually go to the next page of items on the vendor! It would be even better if they realized they could use the item tabs on the left side of the window to filterall of the items to only show what they're looking for; then there might not even be more than one page! These two tips alone, on a zone-loading splash-screen, would do wonders to help theuninformed playerbase.
Lowering the inventory capacity of vendors to the point of crippling themis a slipshod solution that will alienate the entire merchant character class, as well as any crafter who supplies that class with inventory to sell. Treat the illness, so it won't get any worse. Please don't treat the symptoms with some make-up and a wig, so we can't see it when it does get worse.
XanEldarie wrote:
Constant Restocking = Constant Attention. Isn't that what all customers here want? To know that the item they want is there? And that the vendor they are shopping at isn't a "set and forget" vendor?
...
75% of people want the cap raised, so that much is clear. So, they should just do it as they see fit, and be done...
Some people don't have the time to restock every day. I rather put 500k of steel on my vendor in chunks of 10k, 20k, 50k which will last 3 days than do this every night.
99% of the affected players don't want a cap at all. They are pulling the same stunt they did with house storagecap. And you will be the first to cheer for them "Hooray, they listened to us!" They already made the decision which you can see when carefully reading TH's statement as well as the fact that they have a pollfor the bazaar price cap, but *no* pollfor the vendor cap. Go figure.
I think the raise on credit amount to 6000 on the bazaar is good, it would also be good to raise the cap on auctions to say 1 million. That way it could become a place for rare item auctions. I do think a raise to 6000 will cause more factory crates to be listed and that will cause a problem as they are listed in one area and not under their actual item cateogories.
For vendors 150 is too low as an overall total - why not make merchant more meaningful and say have a limit of 150 at business 3, 200 at novice merchant, and add an additional50 at each hiring level. And here's a concept give master merchants a reason for being, maybe an additional 100 per vendor and wow maybe 2 more vendors? If you are really trying to be a merchant and not a crafter/merchant it is really hard to list a variety of goods with only a grand total of 900 items especially if you are wanting to have a chain of stores. An overall total of 4000 items for master merchants makes more sense and gives them a reason for being.
Lacer wrote:
As a Master Merchant i feel both the proposed changes are good. I really like the reach of the bizarre as far as customer base, and i think it is a great way to get things out there. I often find the 3k cap to be quite limiting though, because there are many small items that i just cant sell on the bizarre for 3k. A 6k cap would be more reasonable.
I also support a vendor cap of 150. i opperate 7 vendors and none of them have even 100 items on them. so i don't think that capping the vendors at 150 will really hurt many legit merchants.
I think your option of a legit merchant may differ greatly with some of the rest of us. I am a master tailor and master image designer. I have 2 shops on 2 different planets. My vendors, at any given time, can have anywhere between 50 - 500 items each.
I have a BIG problem with this proposed change..
So tell me.. am I legit?
*Rolls her eyes*
25 items
50K worth of sales
1 item at 100k, 25 items at 2k. The limit goes up at master merchant.
With regard to a 150 item limit .. PLEASE DO NOT RUIN VENDORS. As a master doctor, stocking a few copies of each item that is popular:
Stim-B
Stim-C (Med Use 30)
Stim-E
Wounds - B x6
Wounds - D x6
Revive Kits
Enhance x 6
Enhance x 6 (Med 90)
Thats 29 different items. I plan to put up 10-20 of each as singles and a few crates of 5/10/25/50 sizes. Thats 35 * 29 = 1015 items.
This represents my hard work as a crafter, and the hard work of 4 players that are working to supply me.
150 Is not going to be anything like near enough.
I go back to people that make excellent quality items at good prices. I go back to people that have well stocked vendors. 150 items would suggest that both these become immposible for the player to achieve.
ShufIrathe wrote:
I would not expect to see large monopolies in the game because there are no barriers to entry for any crafter. The only thing I would expect to see is a large PA or city undercutting a small time crafters prices because they have the man power to harvest vast quantities of resources and thus sell at a loss until the little guy goes out. There are no suppliers that can be bargained with for lower prices ala Wallmart.
It is not possible to maintain a monopoly. Whatever a group of players achieve, either a larger or more organised group can also accomplish. Whatever rules you implement an organised group will always out do the casual individual. As a medic, working my way to master doctor - I couldnt compete with members of my own profession, let alone a group of players. Suddenly I hit master doctor and my crafting skills are making semi-desirable items.
It may take the efforts of 10 players that harvest enough resources and do enough factory runs to keep one weaponsmith in materials. This is not a monopoly. This is currently the primary reason I play this game, its the part I enjoy.
If there was only 1 person able to make Stim-B's it would be a monopoly. That a group of players work together as a team, and sell them cheaper than everyone else - thats competetion.
Many people go to player cities only for shopping. Ressources, vehicles, good weapons. Upping the bazzar limit will take away from this advantage. I personnaly don't feel it's needed.
Putting the new vendor limit. Well this is a bit unjust in the current state of some profession. My main charater is a chef. I sell the average item between 50cr and 100cr (most everything outside of Tat. sunburns). I make it up by keeping a very large stock on my vendors.
SUGESTION: The limit should be a mix of quantity AND VALUE. If your average item value is less than x you can have 300 items, if you sell only house with an average value of 30000 your limit is 50...
My 2 creds.
Bongabonga wrote:
Many people go to player cities only for shopping. Ressources, vehicles, good weapons. Upping the bazzar limit will take away from this advantage. I personnaly don't feel it's needed.
Putting the new vendor limit. Well this is a bit unjust in the current state of some profession. My main charater is a chef. I sell the average item between 50cr and 100cr (most everything outside of Tat. sunburns). I make it up by keeping a very large stock on my vendors.
SUGESTION: The limit should be a mix of quantity AND VALUE. If your average item value is less than x you can have 300 items, if you sell only house with an average value of 30000 your limit is 50...
My 2 creds.
Good idea.
Having a total value cap seems like a good idea, but scroll down for reasons why not (as people will likely tell you why your idea "sucks" to them, though they are complaining and not coming up with ideas)