Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-6: Combat Roles; Creature Handler
DavjoFahNu wrote:
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2) I think that the xp is weird a level 14tusk catcan deal out massive damge and get 80 points xp on a target but my lvl 8 rancor gets 1 xp and gets nailed so bad I can't use him again until heal.. how is that fair... its the same type of creature attacking and the rancor is a whimp and give no xp !!! whats up wiht that
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Are you talking about partially grown creatures, or full grown ones?
For the purposes of xp calculations, your partially grown creature will not count less than half it's full grown level.
Soif your level 8 rancor will eventually grow to level 40, then for the purposes calculating xp, the babywill beconsidered at least level 20.
They did this because it was too easy in the past to get a baby mauler and use him to tank stuff far above his level for insane xp. So they changed the way xp is figured if you're using a baby.
Well I'm just gonna throw an idea out there for fun, though it might already have been mentioned. CH's are virtually useless in PVP except for intimidating newbies and causing distraction. I think it would be great if, like in the movies, giant animals like fambaas, tortons, and such could be mounted with a giant shield generator that makes a shield perhaps the area size of a large house or guild hall. When activated by command from the CH, the creature becomes immobile and unable to fight back unless the shield is deactivated. The shield could absorb either 100% of energy, heat, and similar damage, or block such a large amount of those damages that attacking that way would be impractical. Kinetic could still pass through- projectiles and grenades. Players couldn't shoot out from inside the shield, making it more of a place to regroup and heal. Players and enemies could pass at will through the shield. Ranged professions could still be useful against them with kinetic guns (make tusken rifles kinetic for riflemen). It wouldn't be too useful in small faction skirmishes, but would be useful in assault bases and large drawn out fights). Perhaps it's impossible to work into the physics of the game, but I think it would be a very cool and starwarsy thing and give CH's a very valuable part of gcw battles.
pnuma
I agree.
It's kind of ironic just how "starwarsy" CH really is, or could be.
The famba's and kaadu's in EP1
The dewbacks and banthas in EP4
The rancor in EP6
The 3 creatures in EP2 that were in the arena
There's more, but the point is: Creatures are more prevalent in the movie than people want to admit.
hint to any Master creature handlers. The new blue milk is great for Master medic and docs. maybe have it as a structure that you can place you pets in to breed/ produce milk. I like this.
This was a great post by HasturCTS and it really should be noted in this discussion:
1. What was the appeal of the Creature Handler profession to you? In other words, what things make being a Creature Handler something you have chosen to do?
Somewhere in my mind, there was a picture of a kind of Grizzly Adams meets Han Solo, with some Marcus (B5) thrown in. To this end, the critters were a part of that picture. Critters are companions, friends, tools, tanks, and just plain cool. The visual picture of running around, hunting alien things (this was before I fine tuned my character), with some alien things at my side was brilliant.
It wasn't until after the latest CH ner....I mean CH patch...that I decided to actually master the profession. The reasons behind that decision were based on the fact that when I was running around with my critters, I had more fun than when I didn't. I have chosen the profession, therefore, because it brings me the most pleasure in the game.
2. A) What role(s) do you, as Creature Handlers, fill in the game world? For example: Tanks, damage-dealers, roleplayers, status effect inflicters (i.e. poison, disease, knockdown), resource harvesters, mission runners, pet salesmen, pet trainers, etc.
This one question actually has two answers, past and present. In the far past, the CH was the person that proffession that was the ultimate tank. He brought a creature into combat that pretty much eliminated the need for any tactics of any sort: send in critter, wait three, start pounding. Additionally, the CH was the trainer of the tanks. In the recent past, s/he added a sideline to the tank/tank-trainer, of tank-seller. With the most recent changes, the job of the CH has been reduced back to tank provider - unless a group can find a TKM to do the job.
Therefore, to answer A - we currently fill the role of a sporadic tank, when people want critters. The BE provides the critters to everyone, though, so even the role of tank is being slowly ground out.
2B) Which roles (combat or non-combat) does the CH fill better than any other profession?
CH's handle creatures better than any other profession - in theory. Non-CH people currently have the option to control creatures, provided that they were trained by a CH. This has diluted the profession to the point where it is no longer a unique ability. BE's can create critters that the CH cannot find in the wild (yet that look like the wild counterparts), as they should be able to, but these critters are available to anyone. Although the BE critters will be brought into line with what they should be, they still dilute the proffession, because (again) ANYONE can have one.
3. What should a Creature Handler's place in a hunting group be? Everyone in the group wants to feel important... what should make the Creature Handler an important addition? What would it take to get us to that point?
As a firm member of the Group Against Forced Grouping, this set of questions is difficult to answer. If you are asking what will make the CH a NECESSARY part of the group, then the answer is "Nothing you idiot! Leave us alone for crying out loud!" However, since that can't be what you are asking, I will answer the implied question of "What will make the CH a HIGHLY DESIRED part of groups?"
First and foremost, no one that has not invested at least the points to be a novice CH should be able to control a critter that is seriously effective in combat. Period. Ever. If s/he has a critter with him/her, it should be no stronger than a dog would be on this side of the keyboard. Even the most aggressive dog cannot stand up against a bullet. By the same token, non-CH people should not be able to control creatures that would normally eat their head. Instead they should have droids for the majority of their big fighting (which brings up an entirely different discussion, so please forgive my mentioning it.) See my point about mounts for more details.
Secondly, a CH should be able to ACTUALLY USE the special attacks that we can train the critter for. I can tell my spider "spit" all day long, but he won't do it until he feels like it (unless I use the workaround, which is completely not the point of having the ability). This means that I cannot use the ability to maximum effectiveness, which means that while my spider an I are an OK addition to a group (the more the merrier), we do not have an actual place in the group where we are desired. If I could use my spider to target and poison several times, then suddenly I would be a viable option as a group player because I would have a wonderful long range ability that helps, without getting in the way of the other players.
Thirdly, our mounts should not get in the way of fighting or doing anything else that I need to do. On this side of the keyboard, I can get on a horse, aim it, and read a book while riding, keeping a small eye on where I am going. I can use my PDA (survey devices) and shoot a gun if something tries to eat my head. Conversely, in a vehicle, I can go far faster, but I have to actually DRIVE. This means that if I try to use my PDA I will probably have a wreck. Therefore, our mounts should be trained by the CH, but, the ones for non-CH should be like normal mounts out here: useful, and thus giving you the ability to perform a large variety of tasks while moving. They can even be trained to help in combat situations to a limited degree, but still should be reasonably weak for the non-CH, specifically because the non-CH has not spent the time learning how to use them. On the other hand, the rider should be able to use their special shots and such from mounts, but not from vehicles. Our mounts would be infinitely more desirable if people could actually fight effectively from them. Naturally, there would have to be some sort of fight or flight option to avoid the dreaded "kiting".
Fourthly, we should be able to train special critter abilities, if we are training a critter for a specific type of profession. Small options, but useful ones would enhance us in ways that would make us more useful in general, and give us many more viable products. It has been suggested that we be allowed to train small creatures to aid entertainers - I'll go a few steps further. There should be creatures that are specific to different professions that we can train and sell. Examples:
- Entertainers that are song bird and bunny types that we can train with four or five different tricks. When grouped with an entertainer, they add a percentage (that increases the closer the entertainer gets to master) to the healing the entertainer provides. Pretty much useless in combat, but a ton of fun to watch (and they might enhance the non-entertainer's general enjoyment of the show in the first place).
- Scouters that are small dog types that can be trained as bloodhound types so that scouts, rangers, and bounty hunters can improve their chances of getting the mark or finding the creatures they are lookiing for. If the player has AreaTrack (Rangers), s/he could actually select the target and the critter would lead him/her to it. If not, the critter would act like a limited area track, sniffing along the ground (with a chance for error) and stopping frequently to pick up the scent again. In fact, this could be hilarious, as if you told your dog to find "herbivore meat" it might lead you to a gorg, which anyone can take out, or to a rhonto, which might pose a couple problems for a novice.
- Protectors that are small armoured bugs that don't do too much damage, but are AR2 that automatically take the aggression, so that artisians will have something to guard them long enough to get away from what's trying to eat them. If the player hits /peace, then the critter takes the aggression completely, giving the artisian type a chance to actually run away from that pesky kreetle.
- Sniffers that would lead medics to a place where their /medicalforage might get them 30 units of whatever, rather than 2 (with limits to the amount of times they could sample that spot). Or, in the same line, "Truffle Pigs" that could lead a chef to a place to find those wonderful mushrooms. The "mushrooms" would be an additive that would enhance the food values even further, to slightly extend the duration of the food, or add some plusses to the enhancements.
- Rescuers that are animals that would be pretty much useless in combat. However, the rescue animal could go into a big fight and pull out an incapped or dead player so s/he would have a chance to actually recover from the incap, or to get an actual revive from the doctor who is staying out of the line of fire, so he doesn't have to take a trip to the clone center.
- Flushers would be animals that go in and tear up the nest some, bringing out ALL of the critters in the nest. They wouldn't actually do any real damage, but would simply bring all the critters out - including the bosses. This could be used by Squad leaders who have created tactics so that their group knows exactly what to do, who encloses the nest in massive pincer movements.
The list goes on, and there are many good ideas that could be used. The critters that would be available for special training would be smaller ones, that have that kind of training inherent as a path that the CH can choose. Let's say, a vrobal is one of the three kinds of critters that can be used as a sniffer. The CH (novice even) gets a path option once he tames the critter. It would be something like "This creature can be specially trained. Do you want to use special training, or standard?" By checking "Standard" he trains it with his normal commands. But, if he choses "Special" then he can train it for the specific tasks that critter can be trained for. In the case of the Vrobal I am mentioning, it would still have some of the normal training (Trick 1, Stay, Group, etc.), but would sacrifice the ability to get a kill command for a find command. At that point, you would train it to find what it could. Find Food would find truffles. Find meds would find the stuff that can be medically foraged.
The special training would have to be available at a lower level than MCH, too. The MCH can tame and train the big nasties, not to mention have multiple critters out at once. Therefore, the special training ability at lower levels would give the novice or near novice CH a way to make some creds besides missions. Meanwhile, once he hits the right box, he can train mounts, and still has the ability to handle multiple critters as a bonus for being a Master. Best of all, since the Master can handle multiples, he can, if he wants, go on finding expeditions with his other friends, thus grouping, and do something besides shoot stuff (although he would want to keep his big nasty out at the same time as protection - naturally).
This went a little longer than I planned, but I hope it helps.
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Some humans would do anything to see if it was possible to do it. If you put a large switch in some cave somewhere, with a sign on it saying "End-of-the-World Switch. PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH," the paint wouldn't even have time to dry. -- Terry Pratchett
What defines theCreature Handler role in combat?
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Creature handlers should be masters of player versus creature combat. They should gain additional combat bonuses against creatures as their CH levels increase. Ditto maskscent; anything that allows them to take on creatures more effectively.
In general terms, CHs should be the most flexible combat profession. This is due to their weapon of choice: creatures. Currently, creatures possess a degree of diversity unseen in any other weapon. Thus, creature handlers should have the ability to call highly specialized creatures for specific situations. Conversely, using the wrong kind of pet in the wrong situation should be disastrous.
What offensive abilities?
Creatures controlled by creature handlers should have damage capabilities on par with weapons wielded by other elite professions. If a master pistoleer can deal 1500 points of damage with a high-end pistol, then a master creature handler should be able to deal approximately the same damage using a CL70 pet. The majority of creature attacks are melee kinetic in nature; rarer pets should provide ranged attacks as well as other forms of damage (think electric eels, spitting cobras, spider webs, etc.)
What defensive abilities?
Creature handlers have no innate defensive abilities save those provided them by their creatures. A command should be added, a sort of "Guard 2," which shifts damage away from the creature handler and onto a creature within 5m.
What unique abilities?
In combat, creature handlers should gain special bonuses to make them more effective against creatures. Creature dodge, critical strikes against creatures, etc. Creatures controlled by the CH should be able to execute the same maneuvers as in the wild (KD, dizzy, stun, etc.); creature special attacks should be more reliable, but perhaps balance out by leaving the creature more vulnerable for a time after executinga special attack.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
CHs, along with rangers,should be a must for any group planning to take on creatures in the wild or planning on going up against players who command creatures. Creature handlers provide the "X" factor in combat--opponents may not know exactly what a CHs pets are capable of. While a fighter can anticipate the tactics and moves of a TKA or rifleman, they won't know what to expect from a CH until combat ensues.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
? Not sure if this is a combat question or a non-combat question.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Creature handlers lack long-ranged attacks, and with the exception of very rare creatures, a diversity of damage types. A balanced combat team would need to include riflemen and carbineers. Creature handlers also have very little innate PvP defensive skills; highly dependent on other combatants to keep opponents away from them. Melee defensive fighters would be needed to shield them from attackers (pets not involved in combat could mitigate some damage as well; see Guard 2, above)
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Creature handlers, due to the fact that they bring multiple additional combatants into the fray, should be very valuable against multiple opponents (a squad of stormtroopers or rebel commandos, for example). At the master level, creature handlers should be able to command "titan" level creatures (max CL Rancor, Fambaa, Kimo) that have knockdown abilities effective against large vehicles and robots (AT-STs, large vehicles, etc.).
1. The problem - multiple pets
There isn't all too much use/reason to bring out 2 or 3 pets. When I first hit creature management3 I had a maxcl31, So I could either use my cl26 cat I bought, or use the cl18 and cl12 wrix's I had. But both wrix's together barely had a combined HAM and attack over the cl26 cat I normally used though. Tried using the extra pet out as crowd control but at that cl my pets couldn't hold something for more than a minute before it was down. Not to mention if you want to use as crowd control you have to have seperate commands for each, and having seperate commands for each takes up 4 toolbar boxes for "attack" and "follow me", and that's if just using two pets. I've heard masters say the same about having 3 pets out, at the cl you can control with 3 they are just too weak.
proposed fix
I don't agree the cl should be raised, this wouldn't fix the problem. It would only mean now people will control a single cl80 or cl100 pet instead of 2 cl40's, or 3 cl33's or whatever it raised to.
If there were a way to add a bonus to multiple pets though that would work great. If a CH pulls 2 pets out both pets then recieve a 25% bonus to all attack/defense, if he pulls out 3 all pets recieve a 50% bonus to all stats. This at first looks a bit too powerful but it's really not, if you consider just how weak a ~cl23 pet is.
Baz nitch for example. cl22 20% kin and 10% a few others, hits for ~200 and has about 7k HAM.
Normally having 3 of those out would be worthless, no possible reason to have them out other than a new masterCH using them for fun or to show off, lol. With the 3 creature bonus you'd then have a baz with the same resists but hits for ~300 and has 9.5k HAM. Actually now that I look at it it wouldn't be too powerful at all, might even be needed to test that being alot higher.
Anyway... Having a bonus for calling out multiple pets might be the best way. This might help in making multiple pets a viable choice instead of a worthless one. Raising the cl wouldn't fix anything as it would still be better to call out a single higher pet than a couple small ones.
quick fix...
unless.. I just thought of something while writing this. Not sure if you guys can do this without creating alot of bugs (no offense but this seems like it would create one or two, with exploits). Have it to where after you call out a pet you gain more max lvls while that pet is out. Say you are a masterCH. You call out a cl40 pet, you'd normally have 30pts left over, but after you call out your first you get an additional +10pts while he's out, letting you call out up to another 40pts max. You then call out another cl30 pet, leaving you with 10, but calling out the second gives you another 20pts, giving you 30pts left over, so you call out the last and that is all. Giving you a cl40, cl30, and cl30, a total of maxcl100, but only when using multiple pets. That gives you a choice of having a powerful cl70pet, 2 pets for cl80, or 3 pets for cl100. This wouldn't be overpowered I believe as most lower lvl'd pets don't have as good resists as higher ones, as well as other factors. Could test this more with multiple pets and see what works best, maybe increasing the cl pts given if the pets still turn out too weak. You guys can figure the rest out, lol.
2. The problem - little variety
Too little variety in pet characteristics/stats. Basically from what I've seen is a cl50 pet of any variety are all the same, well aside from thier resists. A baby rancor is a baby rancor is a baby rancor. They are all cl50, same resists, same damage, nearly same everything. Even compared with other creatures of the same cl there very little variety, rancor to spiders to cats to bunnies, they all have HAM that is very simular and damage the same.
proposed fix
Have a min/max on certain pet species, in the wild and bioengineer'd.
Just as a non realworld example, have a cl50 wrix and other cats keep thier speed, have faster and accurate yet weaker attacks, armour piercing1, yet no armour piercing protection, and less HAM, varying from like 6-8k.
Have a cl50 rancor have slower more inaccurate attacks though harder hitting, armour1 protection, and very high ham, ranging say 10-14k. Have attack/speed/resists have min/max values also, vary like 15% or so. Also having certain types of pets with armour plating, like rancors who have very thick skin, and some with armour peircing, depending on thier claws or other way or attacking, some with both, of course some monsters should have strengths and weaknesses so that should average out although some monsters should be stronger than others by nature.
In stead of every single baby rancor having the same stats, have it spawn anywhere from cl47-cl53, have thier resists, HAM, and attack very 15% or so also. Someone may tame a cl50 rancor with 10k HAM and hit for 700-1400 at 4spd .30 tohit, while another might tame a cl49 rancor with 14k HAM and hit for 500-900 at 4spd .35 to hit. (would have to experiment with stats though of course, just giving quick examples) BE'd pets increasing the max value's of each stat by a great deal in areas but unaffecting others, that would keep the difference in pets still there but BE'd pets still being very useful.
I think this would increase tactical use of pets. Your group doesn't have a tank, you bring out the rancor or graul, group does have a tank and you want more damage, take out the razor cat that has more damage but alot less HAM. This would also give more reason to having the storage for so many pets.
I'm sure not all this one will be implemented as it would be alot of work and balancing.
... I had a third thing but I forgot, lol. If I remember I'll post it.
I opt that all baby creatures be able to be tamed for 1. That would make it more of a variety. Every high lvl CH basically has the same pets ( trophies )
Maybe having this put in. Say I see two baby rancors. Now say I tame both of them. As of now they are both the same...why not have it both be different?
..for example, ijust tamed these 2 baby rancors and open them in my datapad to view them ( stats dont reflect what they currently are now, just for this example i am making up the stats )
Both lvl 40
Rancer A = 10,598 HAM Rancor B = 9536 HAM
Special Protection - Heat 34% Acid 60%
Normal Protection - Acid 12% Energy 14% Energy 10% Heat 36%
Min/Max HAM 9500/10700
Yet each species of creature stays within a set range of HAM, resist protection never changes but with each pet they are ordered randomly along with the resist %
I mean add something. As of now pets are semi good for solo missions, but mmorpgs are not meant to be solo,swg isn't meant to be solo.
This would open up trade/sales between CHs themselves. 1 CH to another CH.
Would also make taming/hunting/using pets worth while again. Imagine finding that Rancor with the 80% ACID HEAT ENERGY resist. It just makes the class more interesting.
As far as how skill points should go, right now, with the state of CH, I think too many skills points are used for so little benefits. With something like i mentioned above was added it would make it worth those 109pts. This would then increase the need for a CH other then being a trophy case.
You may say it would wreck the BE profession. ( Kind of how BE wrecked CH ) but it wouldn't. BEs still make pets how they do now but they would not be as vicious and dominate tamed pets as they do now.
Just some ideas