Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-10: Combat Roles; Pistoleer
Short, sweet and to the point really.
What defines thePistoleerrole in combat?
A quick attack, able to hit anywhere on the body quite easily and efficiently. They should be able to easily hit a target before they even know what hit them. I think as someone said before, quickdraw. Very speedy.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Speed is a key factor here. The lack of damage a pistol would do compared to a rifle and carbine would be made up by speed. If you think about it in terms of what makes sense, if someone is raising a large rifle and aiming it at you before they fire, wouldn't it make a lot more sense to be able to quickly pull out a smaller gun with one hand and shoot them anywhere you wish?
What offensive abilities?
Blows to anywhere on the body. A master pistoleer, in all of his glory, should be able to draw his pistol at lightning speed and shoot the opponent anywhere he/she desires before they even get their weapon up. IE: A shot to the hand, kneecap, foot, head..all coming with the different affects. You shoot someone in their gunhand, they drop their weapon. You hit someone in the leg, they kneel down because of pain. A head shot or a body shot to blow them over. A headshot knockdown would seem like a good offensive ability, but the ability the master pistoleers should have...ill get that soon enough 
What defensive abilities?
Having only a pistol to carry and not having to set themselves, manuverability is key here. Being able to dodge quickly and take care would work very well for the pistoleer. They dont have to waste as much time aiming and they dont have a heavy weapon, it makes sense.
What unique abilities?
Ah yes, finally. The special ability that a master pistoleer should get, is the ability to dual wield pistols. At the point where they have mastered gunfighting, it would be quite easy to carry two at the same time and use them. Think antonio banderas in desperado, that would be awesome in the game. Also, that brings into question the animations. Perhaps for all combat classes, you should allow them to choose a certain style of fighting or firing. Sort of like a class beyond a class, with advantages and disadvantages. Say you shoot with one hand, instead of two. And you have that one hand turned sideways, or you shot behind your back and under your leg. Also i believe fencers should be able to dual wield swords.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
Taking out the targets no one sees, quickly. Being able to notice them while everyone is attacking the main thing, pistoleer turns around and keeps the other at bay until the group is read.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Buy weapons of course, and just have fun. Mostly pistoleer would be an officer or a pirate type of person, which brings into question a whole nother thing.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
Not to clear on this one really. Every group just has to work in sync and everyone has to find their role. I believe its different depending on the group. At times you can be the main damage dealer, the one who bleeds people or attacks the other one keeping it at bay while the group finishes it off.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Pistoleer sounds like the main profession of a pirate or an officer. A major affect as an officer and a bigger affect as a pirate. Which needs to be said, to add a pirate faction into the game and a wanted level, so bounty hunters can hunt them down. Prisons should be incorporated too and "hangings" just to be fun 
Adding a pirate faction/class/whatever would open up a whole new role play scenario. In game im a pirate, and its a lot of fun. Just wish bounty hunters could chase me and that i could steal things sometimes without permission, instead of tricking a business partner. But hey, it happens. Thats all i have to say.
I posted this as a reply to someone asking about Dual-Weild on swg.stratics ideas forum and it just got longer and longer the more I thought about it. I thought it may be relevant here too.
I had heard that in the Pistoleer Tree its possible to be able to aim at multiple targets. I used to think that was a Dual Weild skill, but when I found out otherwise I was gutted... I'll be using the term "gun" instead of "Pistol", simply for the typing speed.
Two Guns is very close to my heart. I use(d) two guns for games like House Of The Dead (two credits, but hey it rocks) in the arcades, back in the day. As you can imagine, I'm very good at it since I've been doing that since back when HotD was actually in the arcades.
I did some experimenting at one point, becuase of course other people that I play with say that I'm just showing off, blah, blah, doesn't make any difference becuase you don't have two heads and so on.
What I did notice is that my left hand accuracy is ever so nearly as good as my right, when I am using them seperatley (one arm extended position). Maybe this was worse before I practiced so often. My mates certainly have much more drastic penalties on their off hand. I noticed from comparing scores of the two seperate game characters (seperate Guns) that my left hand has only a 80%(ish) difference with my right hand, where as my mates scores differed from anywhere from 10% to 60% and one of my mates (out of the three mates that can at least get up to the Flying Bat fella on one credit) didn't finish the first level.
I noticed was that it wasn't actually my eyes doing the aiming, but my -arms-. I point to shoot, not actually aim. As you can imagine that makes the idea of using two pistols alot more acceptable. But when I say that, obvisously I'm not -aiming- unless its with just one gun. At one point I actually got a couple of mates to help me play with two guns on Time Crisis. Two screens. Each of my mates controlled the Ducking pedal and all I had to do was shoot. Its alot harder, but totally doable, your vision has to flick to one screen and start shooting a target, or a pattern, while your vision flicks to the other screen and does the same thing there, so you never actually watch your targets hitting the floor, and the whole idea of head or disarm shots goes right out the window. Again, my mates certainly have much more drastic penalties at this activity.
I only point at my targets, there is a difference between actively aiming and just pointing. Postures such as kneel and prone won't give any benefit becuase I'm not actually steadying my arm with the second arm, although I could steady my first gun using my second, but that nearly eliminates the second gun.
I can only activley Aim with one gun at a time. The extra gun gets no benefit, and unless I'm aiming the extra gun at the same target, my aim is practically random for the extra gun. I would design it so that when you use the Aim ability, your extra gun points to the same target. It is possible to aim at one person, and then line your other gun at someone else, but then your concentration always on one gun, until you have actually lined up both guns and can then keep your eyes focused between both targets. Which sounds complicated and seriously, when do you end up in a "Stick 'em Up" situation in video games?
To sum up:
* Both of your guns suffer to start with, but you get better, up to a point where you are nearly twice as good as your are with one gun.
* Postures such as Kneel and Prone don't give any benefit.
* Aim only benefits one gun at a time. I would say that for Specials too, certainly Eye Shot for example.
As for implimentation, I say that any Novice Pistoleer may weild two pistols, but placed around the tree would be bonuses, just like any other skill. If your penalties for using two guns start off uneven, say 60% accuracy for your first and 40% for your second, then you could apply bonuses on the tree that affect both hands, nice and simple.
+10% Two Pistols/Gunslinger/Dual Weild at three places around the tree would give you an eventual 90% and 70% accuracy, and then another +10% bonus from gaining Master Pistoleer (not to mention the Multi Target Pistol Shot). Gunslinger, Quick-Draw Artist and Expert Gunfighter would be good places to apply the bonuses.
NOTE: I say that I am just as good with my first gun whether I have a second gun or not becuase I die at the same places. The Bat Fella on HotD for example (whom I hate to this day).
NOTE: I can beat the bat fella, but I have to put in another coin or sometimes two or more.
I think that everything that can be said, other than wildly idiotic comments has been said. Obviously, we have some problems to work out, and we are broken, and we need help, in too many areas to talk about. I just want to bring up one point.
I don't think we should have an attack that targets multiple people. I believe that as pistoleers, we should simply be SO fast, that we take one person down and move to the next as quickly as the PLAYER'S hands can move. We have excellent speed ups, but not a AoA attack. We have to do some work ourselves guys. We can't havea special for everything. I think some of how we play has to rely on the quality of the person as a player themselves.
Other than that, I have no qualms with what has been said really. I like all of the ideas, and am, literally, on the edge of my seat. (really, I am, and it hurts... alot... I need a new chair)
-Oasa
Im gonna do this one really quick and to the point
What defines thePistoleerrole in combat?
Speed
What basic combat elements should they possess?
High speed, good defense, the ability to move/run faster then others since there not encumbred by a big weapon, extra defenses while moving (we had accuracy increase while moving, why not extra defense while moving?)
What offensive abilities? Speed. Status effects such as dizzy (sending a shot passed there head) a delay (shooting the targets weapon out of there hand, ala Disarming shot), and stopping shot should actually stop the target (This one is easy. Make it so that stopping shout has a root effect simular to the scout trap 'adhesive mesh'. The programming and system stuff is already there to make stopping shot an actual stopping shot, it would just need to be implemented)
What defensive abilities? I find that the current defenses for pistoleer are pretty much adequit, but I believe we should have our melee defense lowered some and get more ranged defense, or at least abilitys that do simular effects. Kip-up shot should give a chance to "break" a knock down. Maybe something simular to the tumbles from ranged support, only make it so that we can still special while doing it. I also think they should be able to move faster then other professions (exceptions being TKA and fencer, who are also not weighted down by large weapons). In general, I think what type of weapon you are holding should effect how fast you move in combat (not out of combat) as this would allow pistoleers to kite better.
What unique abilities?
Stopping shot as a ranged root attack would be first and foremost in my mind. Extra defenses specifically while moving, as well as a ranged delay (disarming shot. Though there already is one, panic shot, as a smuggler thing). I think there should be less "point blank" specials (If I wanted to be in melee, id be a melee class) but extend the range of these to "short range" specials (simular to commandos and flame throwers, a set of specials that are better then long range ones, but only useable at closer ranges. This would also lessen some of the griping of rifleman and carbineers about having the same range as pistoleers. All the range professions should have certain specials that are only useabl when inside a certain range, rifleman at long, carbineer at medium, and pistols at closer. Say 0-16 pistoleer, 16-38 carbineer, 38-64 rifleman. This would put more emphasis on what ranges you want to be at in combat)
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
Speed damage dealer, good bleed dots (55% of generic hits, hit health). A role simular to ranged fencers, or more on the high speed damage output then the status changes. Using stopping shot and delay attacks would make pistoleers a form of crowd control (if the rifleman does pull more then one thing, a pistoleer should be able to single out the others using KDs, stopping shots, etc. so that the rest of the group can get one down faster)
How could/should they interact with other professions? See above.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants? Other then buying weapons, a good gunfighter shoudn't be to horribly dependent on anyone.As a role playing sense, there loners. A good rifleman or carbineer would be good to have at your side for the obvios reasons, the rifleman pulls one mob, the pistoleer prevents it from getting to close, while at the same time smackin it with high speed dmg output, the carbineer should be laying down cover fire so that if its a ranged attacker its not getting the proper accuracy because it can't get in a good shooting position, and then once its low enough the rifleman should go "WOOMP" again and put the poor **edit** of his misery.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War? Hard question. Well.....as gunfighters....in combat, as well as not in combat......
(Addiotinally: As an ex-EQ player, I understand why SOE is trying to make each profession more unique, and I appreciate there hard work for doing so. Though I would still like to be able to solo well, there arn't that many reasons to group with people right now. This would give people a reason. Along those lines, my general mental concept has been along these-
Swordsman/Pikeman= Figher
Fencer=Rogue/monk
TKA=Monk
Pistoleer=Enchanter/Rogue
Rifleman=Wizard
To make various professions more unique, try making some of the different stats changes more unique. Not everyones blind should be the same, some should work better then others. What about unique status effects to each class? Rifleman have "Take cover"......stuff more along those lines.
Try to think outside the box, look back at what works, look forward to how to fix what doesn't.
What defines thePistoleerrole in combat?
Pistoleers are obviously the profession which attacks the Health Pool. Their role should be fast attacks, close to the target,into and a bitbeyond melee range. Pistoleers are the melee killer profession. We're not the wild west Billy the Kid having duels in the streets, we're shock troops that mow down anything at close range.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
Fastest firing rate of all ranged professions.
Lowest damage per shot of all ranged professions at distance. Highest damage per shot at point blank range. Toe to toe with aranged professionat 60m the pistoleer should almost always lose. Toe to toe with anyone at 1m the pistoleer should almost always win, including vs melee professions.
Extremely agile and able to dodge a reasonable number of ranged attacks while moving.
Highest accuracy of any ranged profession while moving. Carbs can kinda hit things while moving. Rifleman should never hit anything while moving.
Should have the highest specials wounding rate of any ranged profession except rifleman.
The ability to duel wield pistols at Master.
What offensive abilities?
Gut shot line,high health bleed, high wounding.
Quick fire, multiple shots at single target at normalweapon speeds, but with hefty accuracy reduction at range > 10m.
Fan shot, multiple shots at targets in a cone at normal weapon speeds, but with accuracy reduction at targets > 10m.
Chest shot,high health damage, high wounding.
Defining Master Offensive Ability: Point Blank Annihilation. At < 10m unload a whole clip at the target, no loss of accuracy,enormous damage output. A melee character should fear closing in on a pistoleer, not the other way around. Melee's should be more effective vs carbineer, and most effective vs rifleman.
What defensive abilities?
Pistol whip, knockdown with 10 sec delay on standup. Almost certain vs other ranged/small creatures,not very effectivevs melee (with some training it's pretty easy to block someone trying to hit you with a weapon).
Highest dodge rate of any ranged profession and highest defenses against state attacks (KD, dizzy, etc) of any ranged profession. We fight close range and are trained to deal with these.
A real disarm shot, disarm your opponent for 10 seconds and/or lower their accuracy to near 0 for 20 seconds. Whichever is able to be implemented.
Defining Master Defensive abilty: No loss of combat effectiveness at < 5m when knocked down. At close range apistoleer can fire just as well on his back, if not better, than when standing at a target that's right next to him.
What unique abilities?
Kinda covered that above...
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
High damage vs short range opponents.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
Melee characters should be going after the long range professions, carb and riflemen. Pistoleers should be the class that is protecting the carbs and riflemen from the melees, mowing them down in short range before they can get to the others.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
We should win most any combat at close range, all things being equal. Ourweaknesses arerifleman and carbs at distance, they should kill us unless we can close in. In short range combat, unless we can disarm them, a commando should have a decent chanceto flame us to death.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Im a master pistoleer and a smuggler and I just wanted to make a few comments...
I agree with what most people are saying about speed and mobility. Pistoleers must be the fast and agile of the ranged combat professions, that is their identity. Dual wield would be cool, but I dont think its entirely necessary at this point in time. Offensively and Defensively pistoleers identity should be their speed. A pistoleer should never stop moving.
Now for my main point in posting... Let people dabble in other professions. I dont like the idea that a pistoleer/fencer is going to lose out on extra dodge or other defenses. A pistoleer should be able to take advantage of his/her experience in sword fighting (or carbines and 2 handed, etc). If you really want to prevent people from dabbling in professions adjust the skill gains in the classes. Currently in most skill trees, you get the same amount of skill gain for lvl 1 or 2 as you do for level 4, this would make dabblers choose what they wanted to do instead of getting a single tree from 5 professions. Realistically, a pistoleer should be able to take what they have learned from fencing and apply it to gunfighting.
I want to be able to make my own hybrid class like pistols/smuggler in order to help advance my pistol fighting. People should be able to take advantages out of multi-classing. Id like to see Pistoleers encouraged to improve their pistol skills by undertaking sister classes.
Possible sister classes for pistoleer:
Fencing (melee's version of a pistoleer should grant more speed defensively)
Dancing (added mobility when firing a weapon)
Smuggler (dirty fighting the way it is)
I believe that you could link professions together like this and players will develop great and unique characters. Just because we dont enjoy the hybrid professions as much as professions like pistoleer, dont make us become 2 professions that do not benefit each other.
Pistoleers should be just that... pistoleers, excellent in the handle of a pistol, fastest shooter in the west if you will, but i dont know where they are getting their defenses from...
I don't see a reason for all their resists really, you get some manuverability so they should have a high dodge.. thats about it.
Pistoleer in Combat - Pistoleer should be the fastest profession. Our weapons are light which should enable us to move fast than most professions.
Offensive Abilities - SPEED....we should be able to move fast in combat as well as being accurate. Why not be able to duel wield? Our weapons only require one hand, where as a T21 needs two hands. This of course means that our weapons should not deal as much damage as a rifle or carbine.
Defensive Abilities - DODGE...we are fast, quick and light on our feet, from either ranged or melee attacks.
Unique Ability - SPECIFIC SHOTS...why cant we have a HEAD SHOT & BODY SHOT??? We are supposed to be accurate yet the best we can aim for is body??? HUH??? I think knockdown (if not already) Should be our exclusive choice. Change pistol melee defense to Pistol Whip. Oh make it only available in the last tree before master and make it stronger, if your getting hit in the head with a pistol whip your not getting up in 2 seconds.
ADV or Asset in group - Being able to score a stun shot or stopping shot better than anyone else.
Interaction with other professions - Obviously we rely on Weaponssmiths, Doctors / Medics as well. Cant think of anything else here. Maybe atailor for a gun holster
***SIDE NOTE***
We BADLY NEED OUR SPECIALS EITHER FIXED OR NEW ONES ASSIGNED.
jUST WANNA THANK THE DEVS FOR A NEW WEAPON...KEEP EM COMMIN!!!!!