Development Cycle Archive

Thread: Post Fan Fest response concerning Jedi Conversion.

almanish
Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:04 pm
#79

MrRiflemaker wrote:
I really do think the jedi advancement in skills should be very slow, im talking real slow and hard so once someone actually gets a skill they will feel rewarded




/agree
But! that skill should be rewarding too. If you at last get the skill and this only gives you a poor step in your advancement....

More to this. After spending so may time developing your FSCS, be it grinding in the old system, or questing in the new one, getting Jedi imply that you have step a bit higher in the ladder, so Jedi, be it whatever you choose to be (enhancer, healer, fighter, whatever) should be better than you had before. So, Jedi, if not a way too better than the rest of professions, should be better than them in whatever they do, because the Force is with them.

Maybe at knight this is true, but today a Initiate is far weaker than most if not all, elite or mixed professions, and weaker in some cases, than standard professions.
I don´t mind the way it is done, but after maybe a year playing to get jedi, feeling that you have lost "punch" does not soound very kind.

Maybe with the combat balance, all changes, but meanwhile, should be great to know this is the case, maybe

Good work anyway, the concept is great, only a bit more or work left.
JaggaHanna
Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:09 am
#80

"People complain about the time to grind jedi. STOP GRINDING and play the game! The grind is an evil beast the Devs want to kill! It should take a long time to get our skills. I wonder how long it took people in the movies to get their Jedi Master title? 3 weeks?A month?"


Well said. If some people would just play the game instead of trying to achieve master levels on every possible skill, maybe half of them would not be complaining about every possible features, or otherwise lack of them, SWG has to offer.


I can't blame these playersonly though, since it was a terrible terrible designdecision to make the Jedi Profession a reward to artificial and repetitive gameplay, and worse, one that can be accessible to anyone who submits themselves to hours of grinding, only to later complain about them.


I only hope to not see crowds of jedi players running around in thefollowing months, since that would be yet anotherhole on continuity.The same continuity that might beperceived asunimportant to some players, but thatis the solid ground on where the gamewas founded on. Most of you woudn't be here if you were not familiar with Star Wars in first place. In fact, most people tend to forget that MMORPGs still have "RPGs" on their labels, despite the fact that the majority chooses to play themselves. So, yes, continuity is important so that we remain playing Star Wars Galaxies and not some generic sci-fi game that happens to have familiar characters on it.


Another annoying thing that prevents me from even having the slightest interest on playing a jedi is the enforced PvP aspect of it. I have nothing against PvP itself, but the fact that aconsiderable portion of PvPers are immature teenagers without the slightest interest on any social aspect of the game bears some weight.It's no news that some people's idea of fun comes at the cost of theenjoyment ofothers around them, something I imagined Holocron could have learned from the days of Ultima.

Although I here abide to the fact that regardless of my personal feelings, all playing styles should be ableco-exist, as there is no other viable commercial choice.


What strikes me as odd is that such a massive part of the Star Wars experience and universe (The Jedi and the Force)is being given as an award to one particular play-style, preventing most others, especially those who decide to commit to the social aspects of the game, from ever experiencing them and thereby helping to create a more balanced and diversed environment.


A Jedi Council, while sounds completely unlikely in the chosen time period for the game, could be interesting to all players, regardless of profession and time in the game. However, it would only be interesting if well played. Which is notgoing to happen, since theprofile of mostplayers who choose to abide to this current system of grindinghardly matches the profile of other players who care for any contextual situation that would require roleplaying.

Both councils, Jedi and Sith are bound to becomea facade for a kill-scorethat submits us to Jedi Academy( or pretty much any other FPS MP) memories. Even for the light jedi, supposedly the protectors of the Galaxy, backstabbing and the struggle for power will run rampant. Pessimistic? Perhaps, maybe there are more jedi out there playing their character roles than I think. But from what I see in the forums, general concern has been too much about "my profession is not powerful enough" (as it happens with most other professions) than anything else.


Sad to those of us who wanted to see more story, less numbers.


PS: I know there are many exceptions to what's been said above. If you're one of them, you'll know it.

jvaule
Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:56 am
#81

This has been mentioned severaly times before. Please consider the longer time it takes to level as a Initiate. I am currently a 4233 Initiate even though I unlocked January 16. I can currently get approxemently 50k Jedi xp in an hour or so making 130k a hunt at best and that is with a 5th gen all pearl LS. A Jedi apprentice told me he got about 450k in one hunt when he had the forcepowers he now posessed. To say that a Guardian have achieved 5 times more xp than apadawan is true, but it only took like 2.5 times longer to do it cause the xp pr hunt is a lot higher therefor the effort does not show in the XP gain. To give XP for XP is a giant fall for us low jedi. We must hunt 12 hours to get a 800k box where guardians use 4. (guessing) This should beconsidered when judging "effort" in the converion, Period!






Maur Kyros
Jedi Master

Death solves all problems No man, No problem
Pahaddino
Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:16 am
#82
We will get skill point in the conversion. Now the question is which amount ?

Considering a FAIR conversion :


Guardian 4444 will get 250 skill points to allocate.

Converting all xp needed to be guardian 4444 in Jedi xp give you 33.666.000 Jedi xp.


Now, you are initiate 4222, you have earned 726 000 Jedi xp.

you get 2.15 % complete.

You get 5 skill points to allocate in the new system.


The lower box being 8, you still don t get a box in the new system, but that s fair, because you didn t put the effort of the others much higher than you.


Now you are initiate 4333, you have earned 1.926 million

you get 5.7 % complete, well done !

You get 14 skill point, you get your 1 box in the new sytem.


Now you are initiate 4444, you have earned 4.326 million

you get 12.8 % complete

You get 32 skill point.

Now you can get a full tree 4000 ( = 3 080 000 Jedi xp), or 5 Novice box (wich equals to 320K Jedi xp lol)


I hope I m wrong, because only saying something is fair, doesn't really mean something in reality.

At worst, we should get our xp back to put it where we want, but the xp cap will kick in.


I would advise to cap xp before learning box, but only if you are already initiate 4444, because you might not get 26 skill point needed for a box 3, to avoidyour xp to be truncated.

26 skill point = 10.4% -> 3.5 million, 4344 initiate could make itto keep a1.6 million Jedi xp stored.



You cannot give skill points for the transition, it will be NOT FAIR, because in the new system, the low level box cost MORE Skill point FOR LESS xp.

An Initiate 4333 with about 2 000 000 Jedi xp already earned, you get a ratio of 14 skill point.

THAT S 80 000 Jedi xp. And THE CAP WILL KICK IN, so left over xp WILL BE LOST in the conversion.

ThunderHeart told me it will be unlikely to enter a case where the xp cap would kick in.

Until 4333, the xp cap is a real danger if the transition is made on a ratio of skill point.


With 2 000 000 Jedi xp, I could chose 5 novice box (320K) and then 8 level 1 boxes.

That 102 Skill points to be fair.

BUT, if I get 102 skill points, I can also master a full prof, which cost 89 skill points.

That s 15 000 000 Jedi xp equivalent LOL.


You still have worked to do, lol, to do a fair transition with the current model.

One thing that could work would be to flip the skill point cost during conversion (novice 1 point, box 1: 2 points,... Master 8 points) and then flip back when conversion is finished (novice back at cost 8 and master 1).


Good luck not to screw anybody, because people will scream if they lose the xp they have earned.

anwaerter
Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:26 am
#83
hmm...dont tell me the initiate/padawan is the hardest one..

im apprentice 4 3 4 1 at the moment...im a light jedi on gorath and you know what? I CANT TRAIN on Dathomir because there are so many dark guardians who kill me within 5 minutes i go there..

so, all i can do at the moment is to train on endor..like i did as an initiate..and as an padawan..

AND, and thats the point...i was much faster as a padawan then im now with my apprentice..

there are not so many mobs i get much xp...its not easy to grind as a knight besides dathomir..so DONT tell me its so easy as a knight. I hate that game for that damn jedi difficulty, for the "MUST" to train on dathomir..no other planet where you can train..

sorry for my bad english, read it or not..but im angry too.
RedDragon133
Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:50 am
#84
so "effort"i s a subject different to everybody.

I wonder hoe DEVs are going to take this into account. or if they will at all.

I have not found any sufficient answers in literature concearning sophisticated meassurement of "effort".
Axe_Grinder
Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:45 am
#85
Has no one taken into consideration how painfully slow initiate is compared to post padawan progression??


At initiate people average between 30,000 jedi xp and 40,000 jedi exp per hour.


Once they are padawan they easily average 100,000 Jedi exp per hour.


The effort in = points out in the initiate tree is over all siginificantly more difficult then say the Knight tree.


Ask any Guardian and they will tell you the hardest grind is the initiate box.


Picture Jedi progression like this: all up hill.. but the steepest part is the initiate.. then it levels off more through apprentice, then even more through knight, and finally at guardian your exp per hour is like 200,000+


I'm hoping this is being considered when they convert.



**Dark Jedi Knight of Onyx** - Quis custodiet ipsos custodes
Peace is a lie, there is only Passion. Through Passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my Chains are broken.

The force shall set me free.
-panic-
Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:15 am
#86




ArathSilenta wrote:
I think most Jedi would agree that Iniate tree is 2/3 of the Jedi Profession. Ive heard people doing the Guardian tree in 2 weeks, Knight Tree in less than a month.





Axe_Grinder
Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:51 am
#87



ArathSilenta wrote:
I think most Jedi would agree that Iniate tree is 2/3 of the Jedi Profession. Ive heard people doing the Guardian tree in 2 weeks, Knight Tree in less than a month.




I don't know if it's 2/3 but probably damn close.


The exp I'm earning now shows that it's taken me 2 months to achieve padawan, and if I had 2 months more I would complete Guardian 4/4/4/4 - so we should be getting alot more credit for our initiate boxes then we are seeing. A straight 1:1 conversion IMHO is probably fair compensation to make up for this discrepency.




**Dark Jedi Knight of Onyx** - Quis custodiet ipsos custodes
Peace is a lie, there is only Passion. Through Passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my Chains are broken.

The force shall set me free.
zosoz
Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:02 am
#88

Did any Jedi want new skill trees ? We wanted better defenses , a new different damage type for our sabers, and the ability to master.


While I applaud the Dev's for there hard work , it is apparent that they have failed to give the Jedi what we wanted , and have only made matters worse.


A much simpler solution could have been found had the Dev team simply listened to what we wanted.


I don't think any one would have a problem with leaveing the trees as they are now. Add in the new skills and defenses at the upper levals and change our saber damage type to one that is already in the game.


So far I am totaly disapointed with the whole revamp and the way it was handled.







Jedi , Slave and Buffbot


Iodealee
Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:05 am
#89



I think Zarathustra is right. A good way to improve the Jedi Revamp is to keep the Padawan tree as a basic training before specializing in the new professions. It makes a lot of sense as Jedi should share a common set of powers and it also addresses several issues that are major concerns for the Jedi community:


1) Low-level jedi’s nerf: in the new system, initiates will lose many of their powers and have no other choice than to take a few boxes in the lightsaber tree, thus missing essential skills as Force run or healing. It is partially compensated by the possibility of mastering non-jedi professions but not very satisfactory in terms of roleplaying and “burst run” for example is not exactly a perfect substitute for force run.


2) XP and box conversion issue: if the Padawan tree is maintained, efforts made by initiates are fully acknowledged in the new system. The Padawan tree is the most painful to grind and it would be very frustrating for any Jedi to have the impression that he should do it a second time after the revamp, once all his XP has been converted in lightsaber skills (to get some decent xp in combat).


3) Lack of basic skills after specialization: what’s interesting in the Revamp is that Jedi can now choose a profession and have very cool powers when they master it. It creates trade-offs and constraints that could spice up the game but the system would be really improved if the skill points allocation was less restricted by basic skills necessities. How a Jedi can give up basic healing skills? (taking into account that he will no longer be able to train in medic at the knight level). Is it realistic that a council member can’t heal wounds and damages? Then, the healing tree (at least a few boxes) is a “must-have”. And the same reasoning can go on for other basic skills. At the end, there’s no real freedom in the template choice. A set of common skills for every Jedi (i.e. the Padawan tree) would really enable the diversity in the jedi profession as it would be easier to renounce to certain skill trees and to choose the least ordinary ones.


Somehow, the idea is to take the best of the two systems. The current Jedi Padawan tree works well because even if it’s a long grind we progressively get a large range of skills to cope with various situations and we experiment all kinds of jedi powers. What the Revamp brings is good only as the next stage on the Jedi path, where higher powers are available but should be carefully chosen.




-----------------------------
Iodealee Ariwa (WLP)
There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch!
EMC2
Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:46 am
#90
I am fine with this, since it is logical. We do need some idea of where our conversion will place us though so we can plan in advance what to select. Nobody wants to be half way up a tree and find out they are out of skill points/XP and might have gone a different direction in setting up the new skills.


This is easy for fresh unlocked Initiates and Guardians, and a nightmare for anyone in between. Please give us some type of idea where the conversion places us in the new system.

Tenfo
Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:50 am
#91




Keldarin wrote:





nolan007 wrote:


I suspect a lot of anxiety is due to the new hideously slow rate thatJedi XP is gained under the new sytem. Jedi XP is far toohard to come byunder the new system.



We are still looking at and adjusting the Jedi advancement rates. Expect to see many changes that will impact your advancement rates. While wedo intend Jedi advancement to be slower than mostregular professions we are not trying to make it painfully slow. So many aspects of Jedi have changed that coming up with the proper balance of power and progression is going to takea little while, please bear with us as we make these changes.







The xp rate is also tied to the incredibly low dmg output on sabers on TC2 which it being addressed.


When Arjun discussed this with developers at Fan Fest they stated a Jedi Knight would do 500 dmg in PvP, while Arjun corrected them that it is in fact on 500 dmg in PvE at Fan Fest (before 75% reduction in PvP) using a 4 pearl +50dmg per saber. This would indicate a 400% reduction in Lightsaber dmg on TC2 is notintended and needs fixing ASAP to properly measure xp rates.




l Tofeity Edeiso - MBH / Rifleman l l Tazon - Elder Jedi l
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