Development Cycle Archive

Thread: Roundtable Discussion: GCW and TEFs

SBRD0C
Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:43 pm
#79






Krand wrote:

Prob I have right now is being a Neutral doc and not being able to heal/buff a overt. Never got the reason behind this since I'm not in a faction I should be able to heal anyone.


Sode/Sodan






The Empire is not a Benign Government.. anyone who assists the rebels is considered a rebel, for that purpose it is in your best interest to not heal Overt Rebs.



Colonel Emitt 'Doc' Brown (Starsider)
Master Smuggler | Master Pistoleer | Commando
Interplanetary Shipping Co. Located Crystal Hollow Dantooine (-6833, 4750)
Vendors Deal in Weapon, Droid, and 'Special Shipments'


/Target SOE; /CLAP

JEST3R
Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:48 pm
#80


The TEF/GTEF, a system of abuse



First and foremost the TEF and Group TEF (GTEF) systems must be revamped or at the very least adjusted in such a way to close the loopholes and associated poor game design flaws with them.


The TEF or Temporary enemy flag is one of the core designs which allow combat between players of opposing factions to take place. Primarily the TEF was a way to ensure that players in covert status could be held accountable for their actions when they choose to get involved with or against a faction in the GCW. Some of the core examples of the TEF design include flagging a covert player as a PvP target when they engage factional NPCs, this allows overt players to prevent the enemy from killing their factional allies but more importantly help prevent the enemy from weakening static NPC defenses, most notably at both NPC faction and player faction bases. Other examples which cause covert players to get a TEF is when they attempt to interfere with an on going PvP battle, by healing or trading an overt or TEF having covert player ally. By choosing to interfere with the conflict they become subject to the risks of PvP conflict. I do not believe people have problems with the above stated systems but rather take issue with how the effects are applied, one example being ejected from your own home for trading with an overt in your house and the overt remains inside.


Another aspect of the TEF was to encourage grouping and team play. People in beta expressed dissatisfaction with being forced to watch their fellow group members get killed by other players while being able to effectively do nothing about it. In this respect group TEF was born. Though similar to the TEFs described above there is an important difference in group TEF. In the above situations when you gained a TEF, you got a flag on you at that point which made you subject to all the risks of PvP however you could not initiate PvP conflict, in simple terms you were more of a target then an offensive combatant. Group TEF does not flag you, you are not subject to the consequences of PvP, and in effect you as part of a group who is attacked are given the ability to initiate PvP on the aggressors of your teammate. During this entire period of when you have the choice to attack you are still in effect covert and there fore unattackable. People use or abuse depending on your point of view the group TEF to launch ambush attacks, preposition themselves in combat, use a group TEF to continually fight post cloning, and to defend fellow team members.

Abuse of GTEF to attain first strike abilities:


Reasoning: Coverts are using and abusing group TEF to get off a first strike attack while they are unattackable which unbalances game play by placing the benefit in favor of the covert player. Group TEF allows players to form grief squads of 19 coverts and 1 overt to enter an area; the Overt is purposefully there to get TEFs so the covert group members can decimate the opposition who cannot fight back until fired upon. Having first strike ability in a game that generally rewards the person who fires first with victory this system is extremely over powering.


Solutions: The player base is divided on how to resolve the issue, the largest call is for PvP to be reduced to an Overt vs. Overt only situation and to do away with the TEF system completely, however this would be more then likely impossible to code given how the TEF system is the very basis of the entire combat syste.


Alternatively the basic desire is to have all players accept the risks of PvP before being given the opportunity to offensively engage in it.


Commonly this is referred to by the player base as a Temporary overt flag. The general idea is that when a GTEF is passed to the group members and you as a covert group member decide to initiate an attack on a hostile target you immediately become attackable yourself, however your first offensive action is delayed for a period of time (30-60 seconds is recommended) meaning you must accept the risks before being able to offensively participate.


Alternative suggestions are to shift the decision point of being involved and accepting responsibility at the decision point of deciding to group with an overt member of your faction. When you group with an Overt you are immediately given a temporary overt status flag. Covert members with a TEF who are attacked while grouped would in this situation not pass a GTEF to fellow group mates.

The key difference in temporary overt status over a regular TEF status is the fact that as a temporary overt you are attackable by all and have the ability to attack opposing faction members with a TEF or are overt, however in temporary overt status you may not use the faction specific pets, perks, or participate in overt only actions such as setting or disrupting base destruct sequences.


Abuse of GTEF to continually Revenge TEF (post cloning):



Reasoning: People use being in a group to purposefully allow a fellow group member who died to get a new TEF via the group TEF system post cloning. This leads to a series of repeated attacks and in effect when a skilled “team” of group TEF abusers use the tactic to revenge TEF leads to near endless conflict, making battle pointless without end.


Solutions: With instant respawning and the ability to attack through a passed group TEF, battles simply cannot be won through any sort of planning or skill, but instead are a matter of attrition. A great majority of the PvP encounters in the game are won by the side that refuses to give up and performs the most continual GTEF type attacks post cloning.


Long ago in the FPS genre of games it was realized that continual respawning for a never ending battle did not exactly retain the attention of the elder players. Gradually over the years it has become widely recognized that battles simply must end at some point so that a certain amount of accomplishment could be felt or at least obtained by successfully defeating your enemy in battle. The majority of FPS games now prevent a player’s re-entry into a battle after being killed. A similar style approach to PvP is required for SWG.


A great many suggestions have been made as to how to resolve the situation however the best is probably the simplest. Already SWG tracks whether or not a player dies as a result of factional combat or not, and uses this information to determine whether or not to apply decay to the players items. This exact same check could be used to see if a player died a factional death and if so, apply a temporary neutral flag status on the player.


A temporary neutral flag would in fact be the exact opposite of a TEF. While flagged temporarily neutral a player could have no interaction with any player or factional NPCs beyond what a normal neutral player can do. This temporary neutral state should last approximately 15 minutes so that skirmishes have a chance to end before these already once defeated participants can have an opportunity to re-enter the engagement via going overt or using a GTEF. 15 minutes is recommended as a result of a polling of player opinion on the GCW forums and 15-20 minutes was the average suggested length of time a 10 vs. 10 player battle should last, battles of that size and smaller are generally the common fights seen throughout the day as skirmishes near cloning facilities and larger battles tend to use doctors to resuscitate the fallen allies of your faction.

Trade TEF house ejections:


Reasoning: Covert crafters who do business with overt players out of their private residence are ejected from their own homes while the overt player who passed them the TEF remains inside. The Overt person is allowed inside that crafters home because they have not been in combat recently, them passing a 5 minute TEF to the crafter ejecting the crafter from their own home is highly annoying and has diminished covert crafter personal dealings with overt players, So to get personal attention generally it is up to the Overt player to go covert to deal with player crafters, this reduces the number of overt players in the game world.


Solutions: Recently Thunderheart requested that we poll the player base for possible solutions to this issue.


By and large the majority of the player base who replied see TEFs being passed via trade as an outdated system when combined with the fact there is really not enough time during a conflict for a traded item to do much good during a battle under the SWG combat system design, simply put trade TEFs should simply be removed.


Should that not be an acceptable resolution, it was alternatively suggested a TEF would only be passed as a result of a trade if the overt faction member had engaged in some sort of TEF causing activity within the past 5 minutes. Apparently this information is tracked as Overts who engage in such TEF causing activities are also blocked entry from structures so hopefully you could put in a check for an overt in this state. The end result is fairly simple though, if the person they are trading with is inside of the structure no TEF would be passed.

Abuse of the 60 second covert status flag while loading:


Reasoning: Players are in effect pulling their internet connection cables to enter a LD state then they load back in. This is being used to all players access to pass NPCs and base defenses in a covert state while actually being overt as well as being abused to allow an overt to run past enemy players as a covert to facilitate quick base destruction sequence shutdowns which are nearly impossible to prevent. Lastly player smugglers often times use the (LD) covert trick to get up and heal from a feign death state with 60 seconds of free time to heal themselves and run away effectively making them nearly impossible to defeat in PvP.


Solution: The 60 second grace period was instituted as a result of player load killing generally at shuttle and star ports. While the intent was good, the subsequent exploits which have resulted from this feature are having an undeniably widespread and negative impact in the PvP aspects of the GCW as a whole. Players must simply pull their LAN cable from their internet connection and go (LD); from there they simply reconnect and gain a 60 second covert grace period. The entire process of disconnecting and reconnecting on an average computer takes about 10 seconds, leaving the player 50 seconds covert status time to do a variety of things in.


The 60 second covert time period is commonly used to get a break in heated PvP so that you can heal your damage and wounds (most often used in conjunction with the smuggler skill feign death.). It is used to by pass factional NPCs and to enter bases during their vulnerability window while in this temporary covert status mode, it is used to get into bases and to shut down base destructs so quickly via a macro that these players are impossible to stop. The time period is further used to load a large force into an area who then can see opposing faction members who are overt and the have 50 seconds to get into position and launch unstoppable sneak attacks. These and just about any other grief tactic that could be used by having an instant covert switch in the game is being used as a result of the 60 second covert status upon loading in feature.




ggggg4 Kurzzun Starfire Bounty Hunter
ggggg4 JEST3R Retired GCW Correspondent



(gnn[[[[[[[[[[nnnnWX9ggggggggggggggggggggg)


BabyRancor
Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:50 pm
#81






RozhlokLightningskull wrote:

The following action causes a TEF for a covert player:

And the following things need to be done with them:


Attacking an attackable NPC of the opposite faction.


Needs to stay the same - lets non-PvP players enjoy killing stormtroopers or rebel scum with some risk, but not the permanently overt level of risk. Currently an overt has a first strike ability on a TEF'd player. Some argue that this is the reward for being overt - I would argue that it turns people off of PvP. Simply flip the character temporarily overt - meaning they can attack other overts for as long as the TEF lasts, as well as be attacked in return. Obviously, initiation of faction combat restarts the TEF timer.


Healing an overt or TEFed player of the same faction.


Junk it - to heal an overt or a TEF'd player you need to be overt or have a TEF yourself. So many Docs get snapped by accidental healing / buffing of an overt. Removes one way that the GTEF situation can be exploited.


Trading with an overt of TEFed player of the same faction.


Not sure why this is in to be honest. I can't think of a situation off the top of my headwhere I could aid an overt in battle through a trade. Junk it and apply the same rules as for healing.


Attacking an attackable PC of the opposite faction gives you a TEF to that player's group.


Junk it. To group with an overt you must be overt yourself. Simple and straightforward. The group attempt fails if the group is not overt. I suppose it would have to be delineated how grouping works with players under a TEF - I would go with auto-boot of the overt as soon as one of the groupmates' TEFs wears off.


Being detected by a covert scanner.


Apply the same rules as for attacking an NPC.


Running away from an Imperial contraband scan.


Apply the same rules as for attacking an NPC.





So in short - there are two rulesets.


TEF - a 5 minute state where you are attackable by and can attack factioned players.


Overt - a permenant state where you can attack and be attacked by factioned targets.


Conversion from one to the other doesn't really need to change IMO- but then I don't really PvP much.





Jakkin Darkstrider - Master Rifleman/ Master TKA - Sunrunner
"This utopia seems to be more of a Fruitopia"


Combat Balance Proposal Discussion
Jedi Quest System Proposal
Krand
Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:08 pm
#82






Krand wrote:

Prob I have right now is being a Neutral doc and not being able to heal/buff a overt. Never got the reason behind this since I'm not in a faction I should be able to heal anyone.


Sode/Sodan








The Empire is not a Benign Government.. anyone who assists the rebels is considered a rebel, for that purpose it is in your best interest to not heal Overt Rebs







Ya, but going along that same line, they would want me to heal there imperal solders, so I should be able to heal the overt imps....if you wanted to go on that tangent.


Sode/Sodan

KGJV
Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:19 pm
#83


I really dont see the need for a TEF system. Just get ride of it:



  • only overts can attack/help each other without 'dueling'. Only overts can attack factionnal NPCs.

  • covert = same as neutral

  • grouping doesnt affect the covertness

  • To solve the trading/healing problem: a neutral or covert player can only trade with/heal an overt that is not fighting (trading already works this way, just extend it for healing).

  • upon cloning, an overt should have a choice to stay overt or go covert (whatever the cloning facility used (public or private)): just add an option in the cloning location selection window.

  • only overts can enter factionnal bases. Doors dont open for a neutral or a covert (whatever the faction).

  • eject any overt with 'fighting status' from private buildings.


Kage





KGJV / Drac'ula
.......:::: Proud member of Oasis ::::.......
.......:::: Colonel of the Imperial Army ::::.......
| Master Fencer | Jedi Initiate |
| Retired before JTL |

wickedHangover
Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:39 pm
#84

probably said many times but i prefer to remove the TEF system and just make us overt for 10 mins, meaning double the tef time.


I know its more realistic to use the tef system but in a PvP combat system that allows 1-2 shot kills, its not fair. We should also be able to fire off the first shot at an overt member of the opposite faction.


Again, I understand the concept, you sneak up on the enemy and pull off an assasination against a base, until you're clear of the area, a member of the opposite faction "sees" you leaving the scene of the crime and attacks you.


To me its more realistic if I can also fire off a round at someone that I think saw me in order to cover my tracks, at which time my tef will expand another 10 minutes.


This type of system would promote a better PvP system to go along with the combat revamp. Of course, if combat revamp makes it so that PvP isn't a 1 hit you're dead system, then maybe the current system is fine.


On the other issue regarding Group TEF, yes, I think it sucks and should be removed.





clockworkorangeclockworkorangeclockworkorange
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I-B_Bangin
Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:49 pm
#85

The only TEF I ever had a problem with was Reveng TEF.


GTEF really isn't a problem, it's just that most of the fools on this board and in the game are whiners.


As a member of a 5-man PA that's hardcore PVP, I have to say you have to be KEENLY aware of your surroundings and your enemy. It sounds like you guys have blinds on your eyes when you see an overt.


Aww, you got jumped by his ten buddies??? When you click on him it shows everyone in his party. If you "Remove All Object Names" then they instantly show up on your screen.


If you charge a guy that's in a group and then whine when his buddies kill you...quite simplyyou are a moron.


I do think that a needed change is that you should not be allowed to clone at the closest facility when slain in PVP. This would solve a WHOLE LOT of problems.


Simply clone at the next closest, or a random one on the planet. If you are not cloned where you respawn you take wounds, but no permanent decay because it was PVP. Nothing lasting, an annoyance.


You would not be able to wage a clone war, you would be sent far away and wounded most likely. Fitting for death in pvp.


Leave TEF like it is. It's interesting and dynamic.


Nerf Doc buffs. There's the real problem...



------------------------------------
I've never opened a Holocron.
Bennyboy4308
Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:53 pm
#86






I-B_Bangin wrote:

Aww, you got jumped by his ten buddies??? When you click on him it shows everyone in his party. If you "Remove All Object Names" then they instantly show up on your screen.


If you charge a guy that's in a group and then whine when his buddies kill you...quite simplyyou are a moron.





Umm, in my screenshot where I'm ganked by 8 coverts with 1 overt, it started out 1v1 but the overt quickly grouped up everyone. Before you go calling everyone names, know the facts.



~Enaw~ [PV/XF Da 800g3ym@n] <RebelemO FactKr>
SBRD0C
Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:02 pm
#87






Bennyboy4308 wrote:





I-B_Bangin wrote:

Aww, you got jumped by his ten buddies??? When you click on him it shows everyone in his party. If you "Remove All Object Names" then they instantly show up on your screen.


If you charge a guy that's in a group and then whine when his buddies kill you...quite simplyyou are a moron.





Umm, in my screenshot where I'm ganked by 8 coverts with 1 overt, it started out 1v1 but the overt quickly grouped up everyone. Before you go calling everyone names, know the facts.







I have also been killed 5v1 in a fight that started 1v1.. I consider it my fault for taking too long to kill the 1st one..


On the other hand the last to join himhappened to not be buffed at all, so I quickly changed targets and got him.. GTEF isn't All bad.





Colonel Emitt 'Doc' Brown (Starsider)
Master Smuggler | Master Pistoleer | Commando
Interplanetary Shipping Co. Located Crystal Hollow Dantooine (-6833, 4750)
Vendors Deal in Weapon, Droid, and 'Special Shipments'


/Target SOE; /CLAP

SMOBACCA
Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:06 pm
#88






Thunderheart wrote:


One of the ongoing community discussions is the GCW, PvP and the issue of TEF's. TEF's exist because we have a mix of playstyles with a PvP switch. Overts are PvP all the time and Covert's are PvP sometimes. Because of this situation, there are a list of actions that happen in the game that cause a player to get a "Temporary Enemy Flag" that makes them Overt for a short period of time or prevents them from trading to an enemy, etc.


To kick things off, lets create a "players handbook" listfor GCW TEF's that catalogue's all of the possible TEF's and use it as a point of discussion so we can identify which items promote exciting Overt / Covert combat situations and which are problematic.









well i think they should definitely do something about it.


if you have negative faction for any faction in the game..janta,nyms, corsair, whatever, you get attacked. you are considered hostile.


a person who has negative faction deserves to be attackable in every sense. this person is a known aggressor.


a person grouped with another known and declared (obvious opposite faction) is a hostile. if bin laden rolls with joe shmoe than joe shmoe is enemy. he is hostile and allying with my enemy.(so to speak) that person should be immediatly attackable if he/she is grouped and has negative faction.



i believe that the gtef shoudl be replaced with a system that uses faction and negative faction to determine attackabilty. a neutral person would never be able to attack you, however, a known rebel would. that should make him engageable if your two groups collide, regardless if he intends to fight at all.




*******************************
SMOAK IRONLUNG---Grinding and Grinding for initiate. MAY COG LIVE FOREVER!
*******************************
Lurko
Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:06 pm
#89


not to nit pick but acually you don't turn overt when you get a TEF that would be fair what acually happens is that all oposing overts can now atack you at will while you have to just either run away or wait for them to take their first free shot.


the issue i have with this is that as the system stands getting in the first shot means that you win.


GTEF as i am sure many people have mentioned are a giant broken mess that just alowes all kinds of greifing.



get rid of GTEF all together keep the current TEF system but when you get a flag you are now overt with all the advantages and disadvantages that it implies.


While there are still some greif issues with this plan it would eliminate a lot of the exsiting ones and if someon wants to shot at an NPC to try and PK someone well they are fighting a MOB and a PC that will most likely reduce the abuse potential.


yes i know with this system people will look for ways to grab TEFS and jump in the fight but at least everyone that enters the PvP system will be on a somewhat levle playing feild.


I would also eliminate the TEF for tradeing basicly only direct combat of healing someon in direct comebat should be the only way to get a TEF



:--- Kettemoor ---:
Voakicam Marda - Master Architect, Master Artisan

:--- Eclipse ---:
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Kurtisclip
Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:56 pm
#90

You guys were on the right track when you removed revenge TEF, now finish the job and take out group TEF. Covert and Overt have to be seperate.Right now, we are punished for going overt. Here's and idea: If you are grouped with an overt member, you yourself get flagged with a TEF if you both are in the same faction.

Matlocksdad
Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:15 pm
#91

Get rid of G/TEFs and replace it with solid overt status, like when Stormtroopers scan you and "discover" that you are a rebel.


Allow coverts to attack overts, but with a 10 second delay for the attackers (formerly covert) player. This allows the defending overt a decent amount of time to select weapon, etc. Additionally, the attacker would be open to attack from any overt opposing faction player during these 10 seconds. This should hopefully prevent abuse, but will discourage coverts from attacking overts, zerg-style.


Keep a silent "attack TEF" to prevent people from entering structures for 1 minute after last combat.


Remove ability (as part of removing GTEF) for covert players to deathblow targets with no TEF gained. No covert player should be allowed to DB (although, it could be a nice feature for smugglers as part of Dirty Fighting)


PvP should be designed to be all overt. Covert status should be reserved for "downtime", transit, shopping, etc.


Eliminate PvP from inside Med Facilities and Cantinas. Targeting disabled completely. Yes, I realize that Han "somehow" shot Greedo, and Obi-Wan sliced some arm, but Doctors and Entertainers should be able to conduct their business without worrying about being attacked. Yes, this goes for Overts as well. If you remove G/TEF, there will be no problems with overt docs/entertainers in these attack-free zones. The "silent attack TEF" restriction can apply to deny entry and combat "shoot and hide" tactics.


Keep the good ideas coming everyone.



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