Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Should Force Sensitivity be a known path or a mysterious one?
eRAZORNew
Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:21 am
#79
This is a joke right? Publish 10 is around the corner and you begin to gather ideas NOW??
aquaboy1976
Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:21 am
#80
Mysterious and difficult. It should feel rewarding once you acheive it.
Qui-Gonzalez
Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:22 am
#81
Wow, you mean as mysterious as go here and kill X numbers of this mob, like the trials? Funny how the trials do not reflect any moral dilemmas that are commonly faced by Jedi Knights in books/movies. I understand forsaking all for that for fun, but there is not one single person I know of who is happy with the Knight "Trials". You suspended canon for fun, may as well make FS questing fun for people too.
If you want to start off mysterious, that is fine. How about each quest leading into the next and so on and so forth. Make something like Townsperson faction mean something. Shows that you are "Noble" and help those less fortunate, like a Jedi.
You lost more people ingame from holo madness than anything else I have yet seen. I like the mysterious aspect of the questing, but I would give all of that up for some well thought out, fun stories. Some of the stories that were written for NPC missions are very very good, but the actual "Questing" content is miserable....absolutely horrible. Look at the Kitster Banai story you wrote...very well written story between him and his father, but poor missions.
The Dev team has had more than three months to get these together, so I for one am not expecting something epic, story wise, or a change from the status quo of NPC missions. It would be nice, but I think that these things would have taken longer than 3-4 months to implement.
Others have made the point that once people figure out the quests, they will jump all over it. There is no two ways about it or around it. It will be found out by the person who completes all 24 (Or however many) and posted just as fast. You saw, in the first 3 months of the game, that people were getting "close" but no one came anywhere near to opening their slot. Hence a change was made and holocrons and professions became a big part of the path to FS. Just somethign to chew on.
Gonz
Rothin
Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:23 am
#82
JustG,
I have been playing the game since beta 3 and have enjoyed it despite the bugs, lag, warping, etc.. because I have known the entire time that the developers were working hard on trying to fix those problems every day, whether we see the "quick fixes" or not, it was in progress. While playing, it was always a sense of being in the Star Wars universe that I wanted the most. To feel like I was really living in a galaxy far far away. And throughout Star Wars, the main attracting powers of Star Wars to most people are the "Jedi."
Back before launch all of those who followed the game can remember the Jedi discussions. Our guess, hopes, and dreams of the Path to become Force Sensitive. How being Force Sensitive and Jedi would be two completely separate roles (Leia vs. Luke) etc... After launch and when the first Jedi began appearing, we had to face the facts that those dreams were gone and you simply started out as a Jedi Initiate. While most of us accepted it, it was still a disappointment. We had all been doing and trying too many little things in the game from doing noble deeds to running random quests hoping to figure out the system.
Then... the holocrons. Everyone scrambling to get their next one to see what it says... kill stealing other peoples npcs to get a holocron and sell it for up to 5 million credits, then when people figured out the true path the 'holo-grinding' began. People started to ignore the holocrons when they figured out that it was not a formula they could easily figure out. They began randomly doing the quickest, easiest professions and became very exact on how to Master professions in less than a week, maybe even days on some. It destroyed a large portion of the economy, destroyed almost the entire immersive ness, and hurt the game in a way that we still haven't recovered from to this day. While most of us 'role-players' out there wished it was a quest driven system, we had to face facts that it wasn't and either 'do the grind' or never get Jedi so we could actually role-play it rather than trying to be a ubah l33t Jedi. A lot started grinding giving up their role-playing until they made it... or decided to try to keep roleplaying in a game enviroment that was suddenly very much against them with people hopping professions every other week. That was the mystery we came to expect.
You've now been given a second chance to fix this. To make this system what it once was hoped to be and can be finally. The trick now is this... there are so many people out there (roleplayers and non roleplayers alike) who decided to finally give in to this sytem and try to get Jedi and destroyed their characters in the process and didn't make it. IF you make this new system a complete mystery like the first a number of things will happen...
1. You will make a large portion of the game population angry. All those people who didn't make it, but tried their best and sacrificed their characters will have to wait what could take months just to know what to do again. You'll lose many people.
2. The system will never live up to players expectations if we can't be allowed to help you in the designing process of it, so that we can help guide what we would like to see the path to Force Sensitive be, much like the pre launch discussions we used to have.
3. We'll be fearful of another 'holo-grind.' While it may not be professions this time, it could end up being another mundane activity that only combat affiliated players can attempt, while leaving the crafters and entertainers out in the cold... again. IE, no EQ Epic type quests. (Wait 7 days for this to spawn and camp it... hope someone doesn't kill steal it first, or other rare spawn killing sprees, some combat is okay, but don't make it impossible for EVERYONE to do)
4. The system will not get tested thoroughly and could end up bug ridden or too easy to accomplish and once revealed, causes a lot more disappointment. It needs to be known and tested on Test Center by as many people you can get to help. Give the players a quest system we truly want.
All of this has to be taken into consideration. It needs to be fair for those who gave up their templates to grind and to those who decided not to give it up at the same time. It needs to be partly known and mysterious. It can not be a complete mystery or the four points I brought up can happen all over again. I'd go so far as to recommend this... have the first few stages of the path be known... give people the chance to start it and know they are on the right path. Over time, make the next step a little harder to figure out, add a little mystery to it (puzzles you have to figure out, riddles, etc..), but give the clues to know you are still going on the right path.
A lot of players are very skeptical of what this quest will turn out to be and rightly so given our first answer to what it turned out to be. you've been given a second chance guys, please listen to us and let us help guide you to what we expect. I know you can never please every person and have to make some very hard choices, but it's vital this one system meets most of our expectations and sets a new standard for future systems.
Just remember above all else... be fair and reward both those who did and did not attempt the system since they knew what it involved. Especially give credit to those who DID try to grind it out but couldn't because they were a casual player and didn't have the time. All in all... work with us to come to compromises on each stage of the journey of this system so we can all be happy. I'm full of ideas and other things I want to say but as I've taken up enough thread space as it is... I'll stop now. If I have caught a developers attention and you'd like to hear more, feel free to contact me. I have faith in your abilities and I'm hoping that you can show it to everyone else so they can find out what I believe as well.
DarkSun45
Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:25 am
#83
I think the path to Force Sensitivity should be known, and fun. No mindless killing, or trekking 12km over Yavin IV looking for one NPC to talk to. That isn't fun in my opinion, just work. I work enough at work to not want to work when I play, know what I mean?
Jedi and Force Sensitivity is the wave of the future in this game (the ground based portion, anyway). The sooner that can be accepted, the easier it will be to enjoy the game for what it is.
nolan007
Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:25 am
#84
JustG wrote:
There are many stages in the path to becoming a Jedi...
The first among them is becoming Force Sensitive. Once you become Force Sensitive you can choose to continue on the path to becoming a Jedi or not. The path to becoming a Jedi will be a long and dangerous one.
The question is this:
Should the method of becoming Force Sensitive be a mysterious, unknown mechanic orone that is visible and known to everyone?
Thanks for the feedback...
- g
Message Edited by JustG on 07-10-2004 09:02 AM
Message Edited by JustG on 07-10-2004 09:06 AM
JustG:
Both.
Mysterious and Known.
If there is no hidden criteria, we're going to see a x100 fold increase of Jedi in SWG.
However, the hidden criteria would onlycheck to see if the player isplaying the game.
My suggestion is to check if the playerhas Jedi potential....
- Has dueled 15 players. (Jedi is all about combat).
- Has declared 30 times. (Jedi is all about combat).
- Has Mastered a profession (any profession) and kept that mastery for3 weeks. (Actually plays the game).
- Has tipped more than 150,000 creditssince their character's creation (for time and charity).
- Has 15 badges (Actually plays the game).
- Account is older than 2 months.
- Has a special city on either Dantooine, Tatooine, or Corelliathat is their "revelation" city -- a city designated for that player that once they've met thehidden criteria and they enter this city.... they receive a special (system)message with force music that directs them to the Force Quest NPC.
Maybe a blue glowy NPC that spawns at Old Ben's place for that player after they receive a special message....?? At this point, the Force quests begin. The force quests to be fairly difficult but not impossible.
Of course, these are suggestions... I suggest there are other hidden things to check to see if they player plays the game.
So actually the hidden criteria only monitors if the player is actually playing the game and that theywould be happy being a Jedi character (since Jedi is about combat).
Message Edited by nolan007 on 07-10-2004 12:26 PM
RSQViper
Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:25 am
#85
Put a story behind it with clues on continuing. Maybe if there' s a mission use Waypoints, but other than that have us get sent to areas and POIs to find someone or something using clues to get there not directing us there without problem. Make us think.
example: If you want us to go talk to Darklighter's servantsay, "There is a man in the hot sand that gives a great skull.A man in rags by his side is in distress. I need you to soothe his pain."
Basically what I am trying to put forward is that FS should require knowledge of the game and the ability to use that kowledge to advance in the FS tree.
I do think that it should be something where we can see the trees though and choose as we go. But as we do go on these missions each NPC and mission leads us to another. Maybe we can't even complete one without doing another. NPC to NPC to NPC to NPC.
Maybe even make each box be a series of quests so nothing just comes right to us.
I also think that anyone should have a chance to complete these missions, but not always solo. Maybe needing a small group occasionally and maybe a larger group rarely in the missions, but nothing should be as hard as the DWB or Corvette.
Message Edited by RSQViper on 07-10-2004 01:30 PM
CreoVex
Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:26 am
#87
JustG wrote:
...
Well the problem is you made it a known path before for the grinders who made the cut so your going to have to have a similiar process for those who didn't. Unless you feel comfortable telling the guy that got 20 something professions donethat it may be another 6 months or so before he stumbles on starting his Force Sensitive tests because you guys changed your mind again and since he wasn't lucky enough to unlock originally in 5, or under 10 or under 20 or so on.
The question is this:
Should the method of becoming Force Sensitive be a mysterious, unknown mechanic orone that is visible and known to everyone?
...
In every game people always want to achieve the top status. In EQ it was getting to level 50 first back in the day and since this game doesn't do levels per say, getting a FS character is the equivalent. No matter what you guys think, the majority of the people who play want to unlock/play a jedi and to keep the money coming you almost have to guarentee over time that they do. This concept of stalling is not going to work because someone always finds the quickest method and posts it and a thousand more peopel will use that method before you change it again.
MY SUGGESTION:
MY SUGGESTION:
Stop looking at ways to prevent people from getting a Jedi and start looking at ways to reduce the Jedi exposure or detract from the glory of being a Jedi. With this game I would have made some internal calculations like you are doing with the 1 year anniversary gifts. Jedis should have been awarded for say 8 months of gameplayand a certain amount of "Gameplay XP" attained and that would have given them to the players who truely showed dedication.
And now, I would say hurry up on that combat balance. Make us want to play the other professions over Jedi. Don't just assume the Force Sensitive enhancements are going to be the solution for a professions like BH or what not. Make the professions complete. Don't just promise good things on the combat balance, make them happen.
LIST OF THINGS TO DO:
- Fix the professions to be worthy of playing. (Ranger = Scout ++, Smuggler = Slice and wha?, Bounty Hunter = too many bugs..., Combat Profession Balancing....)
- Reintroduce the storyline project... I remember the Cries series. I found it fun, what happened to the on going stories???? If you are having trouble coming up with content ask the community to submit storylines and what not and pick some.
- GCW: Stop saying its coming and get it done. And make it so that we want to be involved, not "this is another place for different loot" but rather getting different factional ranks via GCW battles would give you bonuses like "NPC Personnel or what not that you can pull out and command in other GCW battles". Also, balance it already, these AT-ST for imps and Nothing for Rebels doesn't seem to balance at all.
SIDE NOTE: If we had more GCW elements in the game and limited the Jedi interaction in those, I bet you would see some serious decrease in Jedi visability. Battle at Hoth? Or all kinds of different events that do not allow Jedi "Knight" character involvement. "I didn't see a lightsaber in the treaches at Hoth did you?"
- Last but not least, step away from your desk, get some water, and clear your mind and stop listening to all the whines of the Jedi.
SIDE NOTE: JEDI BREAKDOWN
- Jedi Initiate = Basic Profession (aka = equal to master marksman/brawler)
SIDE NOTE: JEDI BREAKDOWN
- Jedi Initiate = Basic Profession (aka = equal to master marksman/brawler)
- Jedi Knight = Elite Hybrid Profession(aka Master Bounty Hunter/ Commando)
STOP WITH THE UBER THINKING UNTIL JEDI MASTER (if you attain master than you should be uber)
Notes:
Mace Windu (Jedi Master) killed Jango Fett (Master Bounty Hunter), not Kenobi (Jedi Knight)
Mace Windu (Jedi Master) killed Jango Fett (Master Bounty Hunter), not Kenobi (Jedi Knight)
A bunch of droids took out alot of Jedi Knights/Masters, so a group of 15 players should be able to killJedi Knights without too many individuals lost.
Any chance we can get some Kilimahir or whatever the creature was called in the Timothy Zane novels that disrupted force use? And make it available to MCH?
Anyways, thats it. I usually get my threads deleted anyway...
-NightRaven (ingame)
-NightRaven (ingame)
Twiggy_Gorath
Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:26 am
#88
Rather than taking the easy way out (for me personally) and just bemoaning the current system and design decisions, I'm going to offer a proposal that would keep the mystery in developing a characters force sensitivity.
Overall Schema:
The player character would earn force sensitivity points (fsp's if you will) performing certain in-game actions. In order to promote player interest and ultimately retention, these fsp's will need to be aquired by peforming *force sensitivity checks* with Jedi NPC located throughout the game - ala "vision quests" (really alot like the karma system present in say Ultima 4). The player would initiate the FS journey through conversing with a known NPC in the game, alot like the Hermit/Hero of Tat quest. Once initiated, the player would then seek out other NPC's to update them on the current status of their character's personal FS quest. fsp's could be split into say, dark, light, and perhaps neutral fsp achievments. A dark-side Jedi NPC would only comment on their progression in dark side fsp's for instance when conversed with, and then only if the player had accumulated enough fsp's to trigger the "update" talk from that NPC anyway.
Implementation:
1.) The existing PC data structure would need to be modified to include a fsp data member (if its not there already in some form
2.) On char create, or through existing PC conversion, assign an initial fsp predisposition (random) to one side or the other (Light or Dark)
3.) The character initiates the FS questing through dialogue with key NPC, at which time the player should be given some notion of their fsp predisposition.
4.) This is a biggy and I welcome feedback on different ways PC's can increase fsp through their in-game actions. Some initial thoughts I had were:
- healing/tipping certain NPC's (random also?)
- GCW mission accomplishment (lose fsp on failures???)
- Normal player mission accomplishment
- Completion of non-fps related content ie. Hero of Tatooine
- Mastering certain professions (BUT (big but here) - the fsp "helper" NPC's, when asked, would leave no doubt as to what you needed to master- say at least one elite profession)
- Community involvment - ie. house/harvester/vendor placement, city membership, guild membership etc etc
5.) The character eventually gathers enough fsp (of either side or neut) to finally receive an unlock/FS enable.
I have to jam out for a bit and get something to eat but if anyone has any suggestions (other than it sucks hehe) please reply. I have more ideasand specifics but wanted to at least get something started. Also, in retrospect and rereading JustG's inital post to start this thread, I'm pretty sure I was hearing a plee for help 
Twig
Darksfallen
Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:26 am
#89
JustG wrote:
There are many stages in the path to becoming a Jedi...
The first among them is becoming Force Sensitive. Once you become Force Sensitive you can choose to continue on the path to becoming a Jedi or not. The path to becoming a Jedi will be a long and dangerous one.
The question is this:
Should the method of becoming Force Sensitive be a mysterious, unknown mechanic orone that is visible and known to everyone?
Thanks for the feedback...
- g
I known path but enough random factor to make it almost person. Content, perhaps even factional related quests. I suggest waiting a minimum time before being able to complete the next quest for a box. If it's still a 16+ box chore, then I suggest 2-3 weeks minimum to be able to start on the next box. Don't make the quests easy by all means but don't make them searching for some blue moon spawn. I'm very much looking forward to unlocking my main character.
bell1202
Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:26 am
#90
I think it should be a little bit of both. In the beginning, it should be fairly easy (with more hints), but as you progress down the path it becomes increasingly more difficult (with little or no hints). Also don't make it so that combat is the only way to do it or you will be alienating the Entertainers, Image Designers, and the Crafters.
Tiaga
Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:27 am
#91
Kuval wrote:Remember that Jedi that had his own store down on Dantooine? Oh yeah, he didnt, thus why crafters shouldnt have any ability to go Jedi...
Of course we all know there aren't any well known droid engineers that became Jedi. *cough*Anakin*cough*.