Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Publish 9 Feedback: Secrets of the Force
Wongsiufu
Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:09 am
#79
- The Jedi conversion process
The conversion is smooth.
- The lightsaber reconstruction/deconstruction process
The deconstruction went well. But the quality of the converted pearls and crystals are disappointing. I hope you could do better next time. A stat to stat conversion should be taken, not a random tuning process for converting exisiting player properties. Although one of my twin crystal has a bug stat now: -3.04 speed, and it don't decrease the speed if I put it in the saber. I would like to see more models for double bladed lightsaber. Now only have 2.
- The Jedi Robes
I expect robe with a small protection to help defense. Now Jedi still can't compare to normal professions' defense. If you worry about robe stacking with Force Armor, you should make it so if force armor turn on, the robe defense go away.
- The Force Ranking System
- Light Powers vs. Dark Powers
I am not a Jedi Knight.
Message Edited by Wongsiufu on 07-03-2004 04:15 AM
Andriko
Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:17 am
#80
Yeah what's up with robes, they're supposed to have resistances (i.e. 'offer protection' like someone quoted from a Dev)
DBAC
Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:36 am
#81
Alright, let me break down my views:
XP LOSS
As a few people have already mentioned, XP loss should be scaled. Those only with Novice Lightsaber can spend days trying to get 200,000XP and without better defenses they play with death everytime they log on. On the other hand, as many have contested, those higher up in the lightsaber trees kill things much MUCH quicker and can work offthe same XP loss in a single buff session. Some type of scaling should be done to remove the burden off of the low-level Jedi's. The other XP loss issue is LD's. A suggestion would be to allow 3 LD deaths (only if the connection is lost)before the XP debt is instituted (normal deaths continue to work the same). While this opens things up for exploits, the limit of 3 deaths would only allow so much exploiting before things became real.
GAINING XP
If the goal is create diverse templates, then the way XP is gained should be modified. As it is, the only worth while way to obtain XP is through the Lightsaber tree. Now I was, and still am, going to create a Jedi based on a force user template (because I don't like to follow the crowd, regardless of strength). Such a template doesn't call for the use of superior lightsaber skills, but I am forced to learn them because it is my only way to gain XP. What I would like to see is some sort of algorithm to calculate Jedi XP based on combinations of force powers used. You can even put enhancer powers somewhere in there, but a more complex system other than burning my way up lightsaber so it doesn't take me months and months of playing to go up a single tree.
FORCE POWERS
Now before I begin, I'm mastering force wielder regardless of the fact that it is considered weak, I just like the abilities granted in the tree. But to influence more people to be diverse, these powers need to be tweaked so they are comparable, yet different. This is a difficult task in it self (ex. Combat Rebalance), but it is necessary to achieve your intended goal of removing the stereotypical Jedi from the game. I don't want to see everyone on the Dark/Light Jedi Council to have the exact same template, it makes for a much more interesting adventure to fight/watch a Master Force Wielder andMaster of the Lightsaber, but this will only work if they each have an equal chance to win the match.
JEDI ROBES
What can I say that hasn't been said... So many people wearing the same thing takes away from the feeling of the game. While there were Jedi parties in Theed and Coronet the day the patch was live, this was to be expected, but the fact remains that Jedi need a more diverse set of clothing to choose from. If Padawans had 3-5 sets of robes they could wear (or even better, certain Quests that award them with a new robe!) it wouldn't look like clans of Jedi are just roming the streets. As for their resistive quality... I'm a 4004 Enhancer and novice everything else and I struggle to stay alive against the same creatures that I used to breeze through only a week ago. All I can say is thank god for Animal Scare, because I can't handle more than 2 creatures pounding on me at the same time. I'm not going to offer any suggestions, but it is something that should be looked at.
CONVERSION PROCESS
Ok, so I chose the "wrong" skills during this process. In hind sight I should have gone 0044 in Lightsaber so I could make it easier for me to level up in everything else (MUCH easier, please see my rant on gaining XP). While the conversion process itself was fine, the imbalance of skills that gain Jedi XP (which if noted could have swayed me to change my mind) there really was only one choice to choose if you wanted to make it easy on yourself to level up. Now I'm at novice lightsaber swinging away, crawling up the LS Tree. This is amajor setback fromthe other Jedi's who went up the LS Tree at conversion, it will take me weeks to gain the same XP they will get in days. Since I realized this after the fact, a one time use to "reconvert" would be greatly appriciated. Otherwise I will continue my grind one day at a time.
LIGHTSABER DECONSTRUCTION
I think the new lightsaber system is an excellent idea.Being able to switch out things in my lightsaber when I find better crystals/pearls is a huge benefit. My lightsaber gave me 4 Select pearls, 2 of them were well tuned, the other 2 are not impressive at all, but the ability to Tune and personalize will help keep costs down from puchasing these items. All of my crystals were turned into Poor quality pieces of junk, so they will remain decorations (not as decorative with no color
). It is too difficult to determine whether or not the pearls that I received from my deconstructed LS were equivilant to my LS's stats, the fact they were all Select in quality told me they were, but after tuning them the picture looked a little different.
). It is too difficult to determine whether or not the pearls that I received from my deconstructed LS were equivilant to my LS's stats, the fact they were all Select in quality told me they were, but after tuning them the picture looked a little different. All in all I like the revamp and commend the developers for their hard work. There are a few things that could use some tweaking and some changes that could be implemented ("2nd chance conversion" 
), but I feel that the new system is far and beyond what we had before.
), but I feel that the new system is far and beyond what we had before.Thanks,
DBAC Phoenix
Message Edited by DBAC on 07-02-2004 03:43 PM
DarkWraith65
Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:37 am
#82
Old loose pearls once tuned are in no way comparable to what they were. Old -9 Force Cost pearls should have stayed -9 and so on. A loose 198 damage pearl after tuning becoming a 20 damage pearl is not comparable to what it was before. This pearl should have been a 48 or so damage pearl. That would have made it comparable to what is was in the old system in the new one. The whole tuning process has really screwed over a lot of people that worked hard to either buy or loot quality components.
Also, the robes look stupid. Why not give them so that those who want to wear them can but give us a ring or something that has the actual bonuses to Force and Force Regen for those who would rather dress differently. Not all of us want to stand out as Jedi.
Also, the robes look stupid. Why not give them so that those who want to wear them can but give us a ring or something that has the actual bonuses to Force and Force Regen for those who would rather dress differently. Not all of us want to stand out as Jedi.
Message Edited by DarkWraith65 on 07-02-2004 12:41 PM
lund0529
Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:44 am
#83
The FRS assumes that the Light and Dark sides will want to oppose each other. On Bria, we have the dubious honor of having both sides almost entirely populated by the two strongest Imperial guilds on the server, LFD and FoE.
This gives them free reign to use ranked jedi to PvP without worry about opposing Jedi of equal skill fighting them. It also allows them to keepthe councils an exclusive club to which non-guildmembers have little chance of being admitted.
Not much fun for the actual rebel jedi, or very starwarsy either...
BenderTheGreat
Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:53 am
#84
Jedi Conversion Process:
This went very well for me. I suspect that having had the opportunity to go through it a few times on TC2 and try out various abilities made it far easier for me than for someone who was experiencing it for the first time. The likely problem for most people was no real documentation on what the skills do (unless you are a forum reader). --- B+
Lightsaber Deconstruction/Reconstruction:
I seem to be one of the very few people who got accurate results out of deconstruction. From 4 sabers I received batches of Good, Quality, Select and Premium pearls ... and from the sabers I would have expected those qualities from. I have not tuned all my pearls yet so can't say for absolute certainty, but of the ones I have tuned i've gotten the results I would have expected (i.e. all my Premium pearls converted to good damage and speed, with three -9 force cost and one -8 force cost).
The new saber construction process is fantastic! One of the highlights of the revamp 
I really feel much more like it's my saber now, and changeable as I wish it to be. One nice thing to add would be to have a mouse-over of the saber show the condition status of the worst condition item inside. Having to actually open the saber and look at all the pearls/crystals is quite annoying. --- A+
I really feel much more like it's my saber now, and changeable as I wish it to be. One nice thing to add would be to have a mouse-over of the saber show the condition status of the worst condition item inside. Having to actually open the saber and look at all the pearls/crystals is quite annoying. --- A+Jedi Robes:
Plain and simply, these are quite useless. The benefits of wearing them (a little extra force, and not even sure if the regen works) far outwiegh the negatives. Even wearing BE socketed clothing is far preferrable to the robes just for the possibility of using SEA's.
Also, wearing the robes in public is causing not only grief for the Jedi, but it's also quite off-putting to those who are not Jedi. If you want the bonuses in case of a fight, you have to wear them. But if you wear them in public, it comes off as flaunting in front of everyone else. Quite the catch-22 situation. Perhaps allowing tailors to make non-force enhancing robes that anyone could wear might alleviate this problem somewhat. Or perhaps allowing the robes to look like something else (this would simulate the "jedi mind-trick"). --- D-
Force Ranking System:
Not much I can say about this, as I have no intentions at all of ever entering it. But it does seem like a good idea with a lot of effort put into it (barring the horrid Knight Trials wait/wait/wait/slaughter concept).
What I can say though is thank you thank you thank you for the removal of normal Jedi TEF. With the removal of TEF and placing constant forced PvP in the FRS, you have allowed those who wish it to be strictly PvE Jedi. That is all I ever wanted with my Jedi. The ability to play in peace (if I remain out of sight and avoid BH visibility) and only duel when it is pre-arranged for RP purposes. The constant possibility of random griefing was always an unnattractive part of Jedi for me and led me more than once to consider leaving the game.
I know a lot of ppl are complaining of all the Jedi flaunting in many cities due to the removal of TEF. I do think this is a self-correcting problem though as those people will find themselves on the BH terms and enter into XP loss quite rapidly. The smarter Jedi have already receded back into the wilderness . The removal of TEF is a great benefit to those lower level Jedi who play the profession properly (not flaunting in public) while they learn the profession. --- B/A+ (FRS system/TEF removal)
. The removal of TEF is a great benefit to those lower level Jedi who play the profession properly (not flaunting in public) while they learn the profession. --- B/A+ (FRS system/TEF removal)Light Powers/Dark Powers:
Is there such a thing as Light and Dark powers? The only thing I can imagine is in the FRS system and my limited knowledge of that is that the Dark Side is horribly gimped by the fact that their bonuses come in the Powers Tree (which is very useless in all combat). I do plan on taking some of the Powers tree just for that "Dark Jedi" feel, but outside of the FRS feel that there is absolutely no distinction between Light and Dark 'Powers'. --- C-
Overall I am very pleased with the revamp, far more than I expected to be.
The one thing that really bothers me is lightsaber damage in combat (particularly PvE, as that is all i'm interested in). When using specials, damage is just fine and combat is enjoyable. But the default non-special damage is just absolutely horrible. Before the revamp I could mostly just swing away without using specials on most things and defeat them in a decent amount of time. Now I have to use specials on even the lowliest of critters to be able to defeat them in any reasonable timeframe. I suspect this has much to do with the vulnerability cancelling out armor piercing issue, and it is crippling in combat. Without Meditate yet I have to severly watch my force usage and spend a good amount of downtime as I must constantly spam specials to have any chance in combat.
Thank you for this publish Dev team, I hope as much and even more attention is put into fixing the rest of the professions in the game
Final Score --- B+
TickTock
Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:56 am
#85
Developers, Thunderheart, JustG, etc.
You have to decide what the purpose of Force Powers is. It is the **edit** cousin of the other Force trees, and yet nothing has been done about it. None of our feedback on it has been acknowledged, nor has any action been taken on that feedback.
Again, what is the purpose of Force Powers? Is it:
- An alternative to Lightsabers. A viable combat-oriented Jedi can exist without lightsabers, if they take Force powers.
or:
- A support line for combat-oriented Jedi. A Lightsaber wielder can supplement his abilities with the use of Force powers.
If it is either of these, it fails miserably.
If it is intended to be an alternative to Lightsabers, its abilities are completely inadequate to the job. The attacks are slower, and receive no damage bonuses to various level mobs. As a combined result, the DPS are far inferior. Lightning damage is also resistable, making the supposed primary attack line of powers even further subpar. The powers also cost much more than saber moves, making the damage:force ratio even worse. If anything, the damage potency of Powers should be superior to Sabers due to the complete lack of defenses. Not far superior due to the lack of component requirements, but there must be some sort of compensation. On top of everything else, Powers' damage isalmost completely negated by forcefeedback. If there was an enhancer power that reflected almost all of lightsaber damage back on the user, master lightsaber users would scream bloody murder.
If it is intended to be a support line to Lightsabers, its abilities are completely inadeuqate to the job. Why use mindblast when there are saber moves for each saber type that inflict the same status ailments much much faster, for much less forcecost, while doing much better unresistable damage. Why use forceknockdown, when all sabers can use saberthrow2 and 3, which are much much faster, cost much less force, and do damage as well. Why use weaken when it is almost worthless against buffed players and mobs. (ie, 99% of what we fight) Why use forcethrow when the damage is so terribly unremarkable. The animal powers are completely useless right now. Unless you master the tree and take a lot of useless skills, the lightning tree's accuracy ruins its feasibility. The only thing in the entire tree a dabbler might be interested in is intimidate, and the fact that so few people are picking even that up tells me that other abilities in other trees are regarded as overall much more attractive.
And while I'm aware that there are damage bonuses to Powers in the FRS, that is also a hefty bonus to the effectiveness of forcefeedback.
How I would change Powers:
Intimidate - Good, wouldn't touch it.
Weaken - Needs to be some sort of percentage reduction so it is more effective.
Fknockdown - If it never missed, the cost and delay would be justified
Mindblast - Again, if it never missed and punched through resists, the cost and delay would be justified
Forcedrain - Should be in the powers tree, and needs to be a lot more effective.
Choke - This is ok. After buffs get a nerfing I think it will shine more, since right now people regen with buffs so fast that it negates part of what Choke does.
JMT - Make pets not suck, and this will be useful.
Animal powers - Not sure if anyone will ever like these.
Forcethrow - Not even worth using. Too weak compared to Lightsaber.
Lightning - Better than throw, but still subpar. FRS can justify it better, but feedback completely thwarts it. A lightning AoE at Master would be really nice.
Feedback - Too effective. It can reflect up to 100% now. If it only reflected 50% at least the Powers use would feel like they made headway.
At Master - Need a much better accuracy boost to all the powers. How do you 'miss' a /forcechoke, anyway?
teeth0r
Sat Jul 03, 2004 1:45 am
#86
Thunderheart, my feedback:
Issue 1:
Please please bring Jedi TEFs back. Imperial-aligned padawans should be teffed to rebels, rebel-aligned padawans should be teffed to imperials, and neutral jedi should be teffed to both factions, for 5 minutes after they use a saber or their powers.
Pre-publish 9, padawans still managed to level up even with the TEF, and they didn't have the stacked defenses of TKA/Fencer/Pistoleeretc or Lightsaber damage to help them like they do now.
Issue 2:
On the subject of Weapon/Armour delays I would like to see this done:
1. Weapon delay should be based on the players speed mod for that weapon, so masters can switch weapons faster than novices.
2. The Armour delay should be removed. Instead all players should be unable to equip armour during combat, in the same way that they are unable to unpack items from crates during combat. This would be more realistic, doesn't have that annoying delay when you're not in combat, stops players using exploitative armour-switching macros, and also allows for players to be ambushed without their armour on, which would be fun.
Issue 3:
Please consider the following adjustments to the Jedi skills (no, this isn't whining, I have a Jedi myself and think these changes are warranted).
1. Move the 'Lightsaber Block' mods from (Lightsaber Novice, Lightsaber Techniques tree, Lightsaber Master) to (Novice Force Defender, Force Ranged Defense tree, Master Force Defender). Currently Jedis get virtual immunity from ranged attacks for 'free' as they almost all get Master Lightsaber - while the Force Defender profession is largely ignored as Jedi can just heal away any damage they take from melees. Jedi should be more varied than the obviously FOTM template of MLightsaber, MEnhance, Heal 4004.
2. Greatly increase the force cost of ForceRun. The Jedi should be forced to make a "fight or flight" decision much earlier in a fight than they do now. Currently it's not "fight or flight" but "kill a whole bunch of people and then zoom away scot-free when it starts to look like I *just* might run out of force". This needs to change. I have no problem with Jedi whaling in and getting kills, but they shouldn't always be able to zoom off using a tiny amount of left-over force. They are the only profession that gets the choice of "stay and fight" or "run to safety", but with the cheapness of ForceRun they are essentially having their cake and eating it too.
After making these changes you will have to offer Jedi a re-spec, similar to the one given during the conversion. At least this time the process will be much simpler as you can just credit it them with the same number of skillpoints they are currently using on their force professions. I think this has to be done NOW before large numbers of Jedi lock themselves into the FRS and are unable to respec without losing rank.
destrkta
Sat Jul 03, 2004 3:15 am
#87
master sabre gives way too high blocking ability, i reckon the whole of the blocking should spread out between sabre and defence trees so if a jedi wants ultimate blocking ability eg 39/40 shots blocked then they have to sacrafice alot. also give some meaning to the defence tree, now those jedi that we stood a chance to pre patch have all just gone master sabre and well now that equals no chance.
NadienImesso
Sat Jul 03, 2004 3:56 am
#88
i think when a jedi dies to a BH he should not lose 30k xp to death from bh and then 200k xp for the death when cloneing that is why to much . also i think you get much faster visibility when grouping with jedis as when grouping with none jedis (looks for me as when all jedi force actions build visibility for group members and not only the jedi performing them. also i think jedis in jedi only groups should build up slower visibility
RainbowScooter
Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:29 am
#89
problems regarding the jedi revamp and ideas to solve them:
as is after publish 9:
- after publish9 there are tons of jedi around. at all starports one can see them in their
robes wielding lightsabers.
exampe given:
In Theed 2 jedi even fought 30 meters besides the imperial branch. Sorry, but this is wrong.
We are in a timeline were jedi are hunted down. Jedi have to hide. They may not use their
powers and reveal themselfes as jedi in public (even see them running around in robes and
wielding a light saber does offend a lot of people).
As devoted Star Wars fan I have to say that this destroys my and other peoples fun and
above all the Star Wars Feeling.
as is after publish 9:
- after publish9 there are tons of jedi around. at all starports one can see them in their
robes wielding lightsabers.
exampe given:
In Theed 2 jedi even fought 30 meters besides the imperial branch. Sorry, but this is wrong.
We are in a timeline were jedi are hunted down. Jedi have to hide. They may not use their
powers and reveal themselfes as jedi in public (even see them running around in robes and
wielding a light saber does offend a lot of people).
As devoted Star Wars fan I have to say that this destroys my and other peoples fun and
above all the Star Wars Feeling.
We do not want to see jedi all around and have the Empire standing next to them doing
nothing. It does not fit into Star Wars at this point.
Our passion for the game comes from the passion for the movies. It sad to see that with
every update you move further away from the movies.
nothing. It does not fit into Star Wars at this point.
Our passion for the game comes from the passion for the movies. It sad to see that with
every update you move further away from the movies.
The Jedi Trials made things much worse! Why? How many dungeons or interesting fight spots are there in SWG? Not many:
- Nightsisters, Elders
- Genosian Bunker
- Death Watch Bunker
- Tusken Fort
- Krayt Graveyard
- Nightsisters, Elders
- Genosian Bunker
- Death Watch Bunker
- Tusken Fort
- Krayt Graveyard
to name the most. The Jedi trials have all these locations as target. E.G. Kill Ackley!!!
Now thats great having like 20 Jedi sitting in the Geno Bunker and killing everything.
How will a normal class be competitive to the jedi? Everyone has to become jedi to be able to keep up.
Now thats great having like 20 Jedi sitting in the Geno Bunker and killing everything.
How will a normal class be competitive to the jedi? Everyone has to become jedi to be able to keep up.
What will happen to the other30+ classes if everyone is about to become jedi? Who will need armor, weapons, etc.?
Ideas:
- Don't allow jedi to wear robes and sabers in cities (at least not in big or Empire
controlled cities) - Peple hate to see 10+ jedi at star ports
- Have unbeatable Commando Troopers or maybe even Vader himself spawn when a jedis offends
against this points (wearing a jedi robe and saber in big cities)
These troopers may teleport off the scene to prevent having xxx troopers standing around.
- make a filter, a "whole character filter" so one can enter the jedi name and does not have
to see or read/hear something from that char. may give problems if one fights an enemy were
also a filterred-out jedi fights but thats a smal issue.
- make a role-play-only server and allow people to move with items and cash (except jedi).
This may cost a fee (like moving everquest accounts)
- reintroduce the TEF. Every jedi running in big cities wielding a saber +wearing a robe
will get a TEF. Using force powers will give them a TEF.
It does not work to rely on people behave mature. You have to force them to not ruin the fun
of the majority.
For my part I have canceled my account. So did 2 of my friends. You will loose a lot more
customers because they want to play Star Wars online not KOTOR (Knights of the oldRepublic) online.
- Don't allow jedi to wear robes and sabers in cities (at least not in big or Empire
controlled cities) - Peple hate to see 10+ jedi at star ports
- Have unbeatable Commando Troopers or maybe even Vader himself spawn when a jedis offends
against this points (wearing a jedi robe and saber in big cities)
These troopers may teleport off the scene to prevent having xxx troopers standing around.
- make a filter, a "whole character filter" so one can enter the jedi name and does not have
to see or read/hear something from that char. may give problems if one fights an enemy were
also a filterred-out jedi fights but thats a smal issue.
- make a role-play-only server and allow people to move with items and cash (except jedi).
This may cost a fee (like moving everquest accounts)
- reintroduce the TEF. Every jedi running in big cities wielding a saber +wearing a robe
will get a TEF. Using force powers will give them a TEF.
It does not work to rely on people behave mature. You have to force them to not ruin the fun
of the majority.
For my part I have canceled my account. So did 2 of my friends. You will loose a lot more
customers because they want to play Star Wars online not KOTOR (Knights of the oldRepublic) online.
It is only a game but the feelings are real and I am really demotivated. I dont want to play a game which makes me angry and
sad.
A look into the future:
Add-on 2 "a gate to the past". The jedi council discovered an ancient gate to the past. Now jedi have the possibility to jump
Add-on 2 "a gate to the past". The jedi council discovered an ancient gate to the past. Now jedi have the possibility to jump
back to the old republic and fight great wars. --> Welcome to EQ plane of time for all the jedi
kind regards
alex
mjPboy
Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:50 am
#90
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=jedi&message.id=439425
I second this guys comments......DEVs, what have you done?
shagon
Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:54 am
#91
Curing Desease and poison under the old system was a 1 shot deal. Under the new system it takes up to 4 depends on strength. Given a Jedi might have around 1000-1100 mind not using mind buff or anything else, which could take it 3k. CM are doing 1k+ shots on use. Take 4 seconds to heal. so we takes 12 seconds to cure it, but 1 or 2 for another 4-8 seconds. Mean while the CM just keeps tossing away.
Where the Defense/Onfense in this for a Jedi? Even with enhament tree you only resist 25%.
Please do something to fix this3-10 secondsdeath killing Jedi problem.