Development Cycle Archive

The path to Jedi should be accessible to every player. It shouldn't require huge, powerful guilds to do some Everquest epic weapon-style raid, and it shouldn't require sitting in a spot for hours and hours hoping and praying for a random spawn or rare loot drop.

Ideally, the path to Jedi should be achievable by any player working on their own. The best method would be to allow everyone to use their personal strengths to accomplish the same sort of goals. It's ridiculous to expect an artisan or an entertainer to be able to wrestle down a Krayt dragon and claim a pearl. Non-combatants should not have to take a back seat and wait while the combat types get their Jedi items first and finally offer to help others.

The best types of quests that people of all stripes can do with equal difficulty are the delivery style missions. A good variation on this would be to make the path to Jedi into a grand scavenger hunt that cris-crosses the galaxy. Making puzzles that the player needs to solve are fun, but the first spoiler site will strip the challenge out of that.
Mandatory rest periods in the quest ("It will take you a few days to absorb the information in the holocron." or "Bring me back a K-18 Ration in two days' time.") will keep people from doing the whole thing overnight, as will putting in requirements that make people seek out others for a variety of different, but common and easy to make, items -- camoflage kits, mabari segments, blaster power handlers, etc.

I can't stress enough that the path to Jedi should emphatically NOT involve any rare drops (lightsaber crystals and krayt pearls are enough of that) or any rare and/or hard to kill mobs. It should not require any raid-style events, and it should not require lengthy 'camps' on specific locations.

Here's my idea's, I've been a jedi for a month now, and this is what I think should be changed about the jedi system.

1) Whole Quest ideas

Adding jedi quests is definitely a good idea, but they shouldn't be static, this will allow bounty hunter camping. The jedi's trainer should direct him/her to a random NPC and the jedi will receive the quest there. I think it’s very important that the quest isn't just another 'destroy this lair' or 'deliver this letter' type-of-quest, but instead it should be jedi related like:

• Escort and protect a specific NPC.


• Seek out rare lightsaber components.


• Capture an NPC leader without killing any of his henchmen.


• etc.

When doing normal quests you are helped immensely by the automatic waypoints that are generated. I wouldn't mind if the jedi missions doesn't get this, but instead they will actually have to read the mission text and find the jedi mission NPC's like: Instead of just receiving a waypoint to the mission, you'll just be told the name of the NPC and their general location (northern Theed). This would also make the quests somewhat harder since you actually have to search for mission targets (!)

2) NPC’s players might interact with throughout the quest

Look above....

3) Progression quests and trial ideas

The quests should start out fairly easy and they progress in both duration and difficulty as the jedi advances. When the jedi have reached (4,4,4,4) and are ready to be become padawan, (dark) jedi knight or (dark) jedi master they should complete a series of trials for them to train that skill. The trials should be a huge quest using different planets and taking fairly long time to complete.

4) What skills a Jedi might use on these quests

The jedi should use all the skills available to them to complete the quest.

5) Quests for different profession types, for instance, social quests, explorer quests, combat quests, etc.

I think that jedi quests should consist of a wide range of different quests. However something should be changed. When receiving a jedi quest, it should not be possible to abort it after 48 or so hours (perhaps even longer), or else it would be way too easy just too accept/about quests until you get an easy one. The quests should also be different depending on the player being a normal jedi or dark jedi.

6) Player interdependencies and cooperation’s

The current system with the temporary enemy flag and bounty hunter missions makes it basically impossible for any player to help the jedi. It doesn't make since that if two jedi's (a master and an apprentice) team up and use force powers in front of each other both of them will get a bounty on their heads. I would rather have that if a jedi uses forcepower in front of a non-jedi with the opposite faction and that they are not teamed with, they will get a bounty, it makes much more sense, and it will also allow the jedi's to team up with the quests and will also improve the master / apprentice jedi role-playing perspective.

- Just a few ideas that I think would improve the jedi system and actually make it fun being a jedi instead of the endless grinding.

Just make people that want FS slots pay 20 extra bucks a month and give it to them. You'll make money and they'll be happy.

I'd like to see the Jedi quests be non-combat related.

There are several reasons for this:

1. When Yoda send Luke off to the cave he tells him he will not require his sabre. The test is off the mind, not his combat skills (this should be a guide to the Jedi quests IMO).

2. When Luke asks "But how am I to know the good side from the bad?", Yoda replies "You will know. When you are calm, at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defence, never for attack."

It would probably be Ok for a Darksider to use his/her powersto start anattack, but it should not be Ok for an actual Jedi.

3. Throughout all the movies, Jedi are diplomats, not warriors. Sure theykick some major "***", but that is a last resort and they never start it.

One idea for a quest (I would envision the "real" version of this to be much "sneakier" than the outline I'm giving here) would be a dungeon where there is a really, really nice item (nice enough to be something a player would want, but not that nice that the game would be out of whack with them in it). The Jedi wannabe is told"You must follow this path through and out the other side. Touch nothingunless it attacks you" or something similar.The real test is if they actually take the item, not whether they make it through. If theytake it,then they "stall" on their Path for a certain period of time.

As Jedi use the Force for Knowledge, I would also expect a lot of quests to involve wannabes going to various historical places where they would learn of the Jedi history. It could be done so the Jedi is asked to go somewhere specific (but random) and find someone who gives them a "code" that they return with. It'd be like a BH mission only much more involved and could mean they need to seek several people/things out before finding the one to actually give the code (nothing ever seems to be easy for the poor old Jedi after all )

Another nice idea would be some sort of prison breakout idea where the Jedisuccessfully completes the missionfor getting someone out without a fight.

It's this that should set Jedi apart from "combat" classes. Avoiding fights, but finishing them if someone else actually starts it,should be the"flavour"of the Jedi class.

I think holocrons could be used to guide the jedi/player to where the quest is located, like some kind of force detector...

I thought that this thread was intended for comments on the promised revamp on unlocking the FSCS. But it seemed from the first post to be asking for input on what a Jedi character should be able to do. Hopefully this is both because my comments are mainly for the FSCS portion of the debate.

FIrst I want to say this going in:

1) I love Jedi. I love the concept, I love the mystery and intrigue and what they represent (the Dark ones and the Light ones). And I honestly think thatthe lightsaber is the greatest weapon ever imagined. I will freely admit up front that the whole reason I am playing this game is to unlock my FSCS in order to play a Jedi character, and upon unlocking my FSCS I would have no trouble tossing my diligently created normal character aside in order to start from scratch playing a Jedi. I have very strong views about Jedi and what I think being one should require. So I would like to apologize toanyone who will end up feelig physically assaulted by my opinions in this post.

2) Despite my lack of playing a Jedi, I have thouroughly enjoyed playing this game as it is. I have an Artisan, an Entertainer and a Novice Bounty Hunter on different servers and I've greatly appreciated the amount of work and thought put into the developement and dependencies of each one. I'm not trying to establish street cred here, just hopefully trying to convince people that my opinion isn't completely biased or that I'm making any of these comments out of hatred or disgust for any specific profession.

Also know that I've mastered only two professions on my Bounty Hunter character, and I've yet to recieve my first holocron. So even after two months of playin pretty hardcore, under the current system I still have a long ways to go.

I've noticed that this website likes to use quotes and lines from the films to support their arguments so I figured I'd give that a shot as I try to make my point.

So then...

-A Jedi's strenght flows from the Force...which he uses for knowledge and defense...never for attack...

And a Dark Jedi is basically the opposite. A Jedi Knight is precisely that...a knight...a person a chivalry, respect, and honor, who follows a strict code of good ethics and high morale standards. They help the needy, defend the righteous, and keep the peace. They are called upon to serve the bests interests of the public. Total commitement to the path is required in order to live up to this code. This is just my views on Jedi as I see them, my reason for bringing this up is so you have a better idea of where I'm coming from on my opinions in this post.

-We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers

Not soldiers perhaps, but most definately warriors. Let's face it: the life of a Jedi is combat. Maybe not completely, but at least as much as it is anything else. Even the most peaceful Jedi is required at some point to pick up his lightsaber and defend himself. I'm sorry, but I do have to agree with the decision to make Holocrons available mainly as high level combat loot. All those crafters/medics/entertainers that don't want to pick up a weapon and fight to earn it? Sorry, then you don't get it. Despite the fact that this is mainly a crafting based game, If you don't like combat then you shouldn't be a Jedi. But doesn't everyone have the right to play a Jedi? Absolutely, but if you want it then you have to accept what will go with it. The quest to be a Jedi should be a preparation for what being a Jediwill entail. And I feel very strongly that the new system should reflect this.

-An apprentice you have, Qui-Gonn. Impossible to take on a second.

Becoming a Jedi requires more patience and self-discovery than it does help from someone else. Very rarely should a Jedi find himself depending on others besides his master. Not only do I think that the path to the FSCS should be able complete-able alone, it should pretty much required to be. And it should feel like you are actually doing it by yourself as well. As in no static NPC's with players standing in line to get their quest. If you want to use NPC's at all make them completely unique to the player going to them (a'la: the wandering stranger in the wilderness).

So how do you set about on your path to become a Jedi? Well, first of all, that person should express some sort of pertinant interest in unlocking their FSCS. Talk to NPC's and bug them for legends and lore. Visit suspected Jedi locations. Seek out and examine artifacts. But require them to be subtle about it, and discourage advice from other PC's. What I'm saying is try to keep the spam of 'Bob shouts, "WHERE'S THE JEDI LEGEND NPC IN THIS CITY?"', and, '"Selling Jedi artifacts!! 3mil apiece! One more step to unlocking your FCSC!!" shouts Franklin (master Merchant)' down to a minimum, and if it's possible, nonexistant. In fact, I'd go so far as to make all NPC's or artifacts unique to the individual player. In other words, if Player A picked up this really neat artifact, he shouldn't be able to turn around and give it to Player B to help him along. Don't let people abuse and powergame the system, but at the same time let them progress at their own pace.

-They [midichlorians] continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force

Why not? Make it just that. After a certain amount of on your own personal questing is accomplished and the person starts getting attuned to the Force, have the player recieve an anonymous ingame email, or a system message telling them what to do next. Or spawn a blue glowy that only they can see that willthen send them to Mr. Former Jedi NPC to really start them off on the path the the FSCS. Don't hand the profession to them on a platter but give out a hint...encouragement that they are on the right path.

The best way to settle most arguments, in my opinion, is to present both sides of them and mediate accordingly. T the best of my assumption ability, the producers and developers over at SOE want the folllowing:

1) To control the Jedi population, keeing the amount of visible Jedi as sparse as possible (something they've accomplished brilliantly up to this point I think. I've been playing the game no less than 5hrs a day, every day, since Christmas, interacted with thousands of other playersand I haven't seen a single Jedi yet)

2) To keep the Jedi profession prized, but attainable. Jedi are something to be reveared,and as such, so should the players that play them. The profession must be difficult to earn and rare so that is respected when it is seen.

3) To keep Jedi as a reward for players who have experienced many different facets of the game.

Speaking as a player, and (if it's not too bold) on behalf of the player community we want the following:

1) To play as a freakin' Jedi!

2) The quest to become a Jedi be as intersting and involved as possible

3) That anyone who wants to play one be able to, but at the same time keep a respectable identity for our non-Jedi avatar in this game. This is probably a bigger concern for me than it is for anyone else but...getting involved in the civil war should not be required to earn the FSCS. Don't get me wrong, I'm greatly looking forward to when I can leap into the fray...as a Jedi. But my current characters see no reason to put themselves in that much harms way...yet. since character creation is a very tender aspect of a MMORolePlayingGame, I think PC personalitlyis something that deserves at least some attention

So my final suggestions for the FSCS are the following.

-Require player'sPaths to a Jedi to have something in common, but be unique all to their own. I would completely expect to see a conversation between Player A and Player B outside of a ruined temple contain the words "Yeah, I heard a rumor that Jedi used to train here.", but at the same time I would not expect to see both those same players standing in front of the same NPC on two different portions of a quest. I'm generalizing of course, but hopefully you see my point.

-Let the players work at their own pace. I cannot....simply CANNOT...stress this enough. Randomly spawning once per week/twice per week/one hour a day NPC's...bad idea. Mission to be here, at this spot, at this exact hour, or your chance is gone forever type missions.....bad idea. Doing one will force players to conform to the casual gamer schedual, while the other forces the player to conform to the obsessive gamer schedual (i.e. me). Players should be free to explore this path as lightly or intensly as they choose. Total commitment to a path does not require that Rome be built in a day.

-Make the path interesting. Give some dialouge that's not mission related...even a cheesy Master to apprentice "When I was your age" story that they have to listen to. If you want to make anything random then make it the quests that the player must fufill. Diplomacy missions are a huge must. Even something as simple as the player walking in on a dispute in a bar. Suppose he successfully settles it, perhaps the NPC in the corner is a Jedi who takes note of his compassion. Now perhaps the Jedi chooses to send the player on a more difficult mediation, even maybe a large public trial. Everything is a step along the path.

-I realize how hot an issue profession grinding is, but I'm not so sure it should be thrown out of the window so quickly. Crafting your own lightsaber is certainly a requirement for a Jedi. Say we actually have a real Star Wars person who's tougher than nails and can Brawl anything in sight to death and has started to pick up that he's a little Force sensitive. He's going to have to learn a little crafting isn't he? A stretch I know, but it enforces the fact that Jedi's have a broad knowledge base, and should require a great deal of life experience.

-Compensate players who have already started down the grinding path and compensate them good. I forsee a great number of players that will happily up and leave if they feel they are set back by this revamp. Maybe something related to the number of professions that they mastered that were required for them. For instance if Player A has mastered 4 out of his 5 profession he needs for his FSCS, don't make him quest quite as much or maybe even not at all as Player C who has mastered none. And definately leave the holo-grinding option open...at least for the time being until you can be sure that the quest method will work and is more satisfying that the old way.

I say this truthfully and as politely as I can, SOE. You need to be really careful with how you choose to implement this revamp. I don't think it's an exaggeration that many players accounts are hanging in the balance. And in my humble opinion, to change revamp the Path to the Jedi from what it is now into a quest based system...with the current mission/quest based system as a blueprint simply will not work. The quests need to be fun, they need to be challenging, and they need to take the player on a journey into the game. Which is something that the holo-grinding system CAN do if the person is not concerned with simply grinding his professions as quickly as he can just so he can play a Jedi. To be quite thouroughly honest, if you aren't positive you can find a way to create a brilliantly interesting quest-based format for the FSCS, then perhaps it shouldn't be done. But instead effort should be put on modifying the current system, to allow players to explore the possibilities of a Jedi without losing the identity of a character they are so very fond of.

P.S.

If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine

This is just an idea I had amidst all my badmouthing, and hating on the system

That is, if a player with a Jedi is killed (via a reinstation of perma-death, or killed so many times he just doesn't come back) give that player the option of returning as a blue glowy...to instruct other players or Jedi's on their path. Silly I know, but I could see it being a lot of fun.

A system needs to be established that will create a class of jedi, that would be jedi. The previous one fostered the darkest aspects of the game. This second attempt must have the correct feel, and flow.

Have 1 npc move with the resource shift. (JEDI are supposed to be rare) This person is rumored to be a jedi in hiding, and can led you on your path towards understanding. The mission giver would send you off to show your dedication to learning the ways of the force. Ideas would be to send him to see the best and worst of both sides, to prepare the young one for the road ahead. (yavin and dath pop to mind)

Let the player decide then which path to take, light or dark, with their decision being final. The mission giver would give the player a waypoint to either a light or dark quest giver.

Players would have to dive deep into their side. Akin to the villainess of the sith outside the force hunter cave. The jedi missions should bring out the true nature of the beast to the players. Slaughtering villagers, sowing hate and other dastardly deeds for the dark side. While the light should focus more on training akin to what’s in the films. focus, calm, not letting that huge floating rock crush your trainer.

This process NEEDS to be a long, time consuming event. But unlike the pointless hollow-grind, should be a boost to the game. I would like to see the players take on multiple roles, healer, warrior, leader, and spiritual guide. Additionally the jedi aspirant should be given specific things that they must gather and build, more then just a light saber, which should come near the end anyway. Try to use either new, and unknown resources, or possibly through the use of a FS-resource survey tool.

DO NOT let players buy or macro their way through.

Characters that become jedi should BE the jedi. Not a new guy, none of this selling yourself off to BH's for xp and cash.

Even if this is never seen, read or considered, please think this process through. WE (the whole game) can not survive another system like the jedi grind.

Help us dev's, your our only hope.

One thing everyone hated about the Proffession grind was it forced you to contiously drop and pick up proffessions you didn't care about at all.

A quest system made to be completable withalmost anycharacter build is a must. If players were at proffession 24 and then had to re-learn some gay crafting class to complete one little piece of the quest It would be like a slap in the face.

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darkhawk000 wrote:

************************************************************************************************************
The path to become a Jedi will be a long series of quests that will take place over a period of time. Each quest will be of a different type and have different characteristics. There will Force Sensitive quests, padawan quests, Lightside quests and Darkside quests and master trials.



The developers are interested in hearing what you would like to see for:

* Whole Quest ideas
* NPC’s players might interact with throughout the quest
* Progression quests and trial ideas
* What skills a Jedi might use on these quests
* Quests for different profession types, for instance, social quests, explorer quests, combat quests, etc.
* Player interdependencies and cooperation’s
* Jedi Titles earned through the quests from Force Sensitivity to Jedi master
**********************************************************************************************************


1st let me start with things i would not like to see.

1.) grinding different professions.
Franky there are some professions i just dont want to do. I HATE crafting, so i would not like
to be forced to craft.
2.) no dynamic NPC jedi quest giver.
Nothing kills the causual gamer more than some random NPC that spawns at some hour when I work.
Compound that with the fact that he might only spawn once a week.
PLZZ this is a biggie.
3.)long boring deliver the datapad and retrieve the datapad missions.


Now for things I would love to see.

1.) static NPC jedi quest giver.

2) long quest to be jedi. somthing like 50 missions.

3) professions specific quests. crafting,combat, medic, explorer.

4) a DEFFINATE way to know we are on the way to becomming a jedi. kinda like force sensitivity meter. that would grow as we do things.


NOW for the Ideas.
QUEST IDEA

Basically there would be a blue glowy npc jedi quest giver. He would tell us to do random things.
at 1st they would be basic. there would be deliver missions. yes they are boring but here is the difference. the npc;s would tell u various things about jedi. and they would ask u questions.
the answers u give would detirmine which side you would be on. EXAMPLE I have a mission to deliever
a message to a jedi wannabe. i get to him and from talking i find out he has a force crystal on him
he says he just found. If i deliver the message then im going light side of force. if i decide to kill him, i can steal the crystal, and when i report back to blue glowy, he says he senses much hate in me.

also, one thing I would like to see, is quests given by other quest targets. EXAMPLE the bluie glowy tells me to save a person from some thugs. i save him then that person tells me about his friends that are trapped in a cave by the same thugs. only he got away. So then i go to the cave and save his friends. then 1 friend tells me hes soo happy that he wil send me to his other friend that runs a protection bussiness. i meet this guy and start working for him. This npc sends me on a few missions, then on tougher ones the npc decides to come with me. ETC ETC

basically this is MUCH more fun because it gives u a great feeling of a world. not just person A to B then back to person A. My system would be person A to B to C to DE to F then mabye back to person A.


all in all. there has to be some way for us to know we are doing the right thing.
As u know everyone who tries will eventually get a jedi, so no sense making it sooo hard to get, that only the powergamers get one. PLZZZZZZZ remember. there are MANY MANY causal gamer out there who
REALLY want a jedi. if your quests are too hard and too long then we will be left out. some of
us have career's that demand alot of our time, so we cant speand half a year looking for some random npc jedi quest giver spawn.

Also many people hate to fight. I know about 10 entertainers and crafters that just love to talk
dance and craft goods to sell on the market. Dont forget all of these people.


Most of the people on the forums have 1000's of posts, and u can tell are powergamers. im not saying dont listen to them. but im saying that we casual gamers are the SILENT MAJORITY. TY for you time in reading this.

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To all suggesting npc quests, one small detail you dont really want to understand in this game:

NPC + random + roleplaying + interesting + rare + SWG = There will NEVER be such a thing.

All of these, can be made by a group of developer roleplayers who can think of things up on the fly, without even have to change the current system as it is.

Results = Roleplaying + VERY EXTREMELY random + interesting.

Also, since its a random pick, everyone could be a jedi hypothetically = no legal issues.