Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Jedi Punchlist Feedback
Thunderheart wrote:1. XP loss will greatly affect the ability for a Jedi Knight to change their template. There should be a way to retrain skills at the Knight level so that:
Experience loss has been changed back and forth a bit. There has to be some death penalty associated with PvP deaths because of the inherent power level of Jedi and also to prevent Jedi from selling their deaths to Bounty Hunters. Without a penalty, it leaves the possibility of a “Death-credit” loop. However, we are going to remove XP loss for Force Ranked Jedi when they fight each other because it is required to gain rank.If XP loss is only an issue due to the PvP Death-credit loop, then please remove it from PvE deaths as well. I understand that Jedi should be hard to level, but given the exptremely high XP requirements currently in place, that has already been achieved.
I'm all for death penalties if a bounty hunter successfully completes a mission he has on you, but survivablility for low level Jedi as it currently stands is really not what it should be. It is incredibly hard to level up a low-level Jedi without any armor or any healing skills (yes, I know you can take novice medic), and coupled with the low force pool at lower levels it becomes increasingly so.
Thunderheart wrote:
5. The changes to the defense tree have made it very undesirable. There is literally nothing in the entire tree until Master when you get avoid incapacitation which is overall pretty useless.
Melee mitigation is going away for PvP for everyone very soon. We are evaluating alternate ways to make the Defense Tree more desirable.
Melee mitigation is not only important in PvP, it is also extremely important in the PvE portion of the Jedi grind. If you are removing it from the other professions for PvP, but keeping it in for PvE, then you should do the same for Jedi. This coupled with the fact that Jedi are not allowed to wear any armor makes it incredibly difficult to level up in the PvE portion of the Jedi profession.
Thunderheart wrote:
13. Robes of all levels should have *some* sort of armor resists. Padawan who are just starting out in the world could use a Robe with some resists. Higher level Jedi Robes should have +resists to certain things like poison/fire/etc.
The Jedi Development team is against balancing these combat features with the robes. We will work to balance resists to poisons/fire/etc. in a different manner and report back to you.
Playing as a low level Jedi that has no access to the skills a converted Gaurdian 4/4/4/4 has, makes the fact that you can not wear any armor an incredibly big nerf.
The fact is that most of us will have a hard time surviving in the PvE portion of the Jedi profession due to this. Yes, I understand that you added force and regeneration bonuses to the Jedi robes, but when you are too low to be able to afford Force Armor, or Force Armor eats up your meager force pool extremely fast, it just does not make it any fun.
Thunderheart wrote:
15. Sabers made with exceptional pearls (-9 FC) for example are not returning exceptional components.
Pearls are returned based on the stats of the Lightsaber as a whole. So if you have one amazing pearl and three lame crystals in a lightsaber, you will not have an amazing pearl come out. Additionally, when lightsabers are deconstructed, the pearls are un-tuned.
If what you are describing is the case, then there is still a bug here that needs to be addressed. Many Jedi have reported that 5th Generation Sabers made with perfect pearls in the old system did not return even good quality components.
I have even heard reports of sliced sabers, which in this case should return exceptional components giving back the same as other normal sabers.Thunderheart wrote:
18. Master Healing/Force Power need mods to +speed for their respective skills. Why would anyone use force lighting if the delay is 3 seconds when they can saberthrow at 1/second. Additionall Master Healing has no benefits other than Total Heal which is no longer even a total heal.
The +speed benefits exist within the Force Ranking System. Total Heal has benefits in the Fire Cure addition along with the Force costs being adjusted for how much damage it heals. So there may be times where it is cheaper and times where it is more expensive based on how much damage it heals.
Please reconsider the fact that the healing speed bonuses are only available as part of the force ranking system. If at all possible, spread them out so that you get some force healing speed bonuses while you are still grinding up, and then get the final bonuses in the FRS system. Duplication the skill bonuses to Injury Treatment Speed in the Medic profession would be a good fit.
Thunderheart wrote:
19. Force Sensitive skills are useless for Jedi. Example: melee accuracy, melee speed, Healing skills, assembly, healing speed....none of these affect Jedi skills at all yet we are forced to learn them.
Yes, they are. Basically, this is 20/20 hindsight and a by-product of the conversion. As a character moves through the Jedi process on a normal progression, Force Sensitivity skills are basic enhancements for “regular” characters to simulate Force Sensitivity. At that point, they are great to have. Once a character becomes a Jedi, they have already moved past those skills and in effect developed their Force powers from sensitivities into full blown powers. In essence, you have all moved past this point but everyone will have to go through this phase in the future.
Again, please reconsider this. A Jedi is a Melee fighter, and while you are leveling up, is when you really need it. Once you are done with the PvE portion, I can see how they might become redundant, but at least get the Melee Speed and Accuracy bonuses to work.
In the old system it might have been true that a Jedi moved past the need for those skills, but in the new one, the above 2 skills should at least be applicable while you are still leveling up a Jedi.
Thunderheart wrote:
20. The bonus damage against lower level mobs needs to work with the default auto-attack as well. Low level Jedi can hardly do specials, so this is a catch-22 if only specials get the bonus.
With the addition of Force Pool and Force Regen to the Padwan Robe along with increased Force in the skill tree we have already significantly boosted the lower end game. No longer is a lower end Jedi limited to 600 Force and 5 regen. Coupling this with the addition of higher end saber specials sooner, we have in fact greatly enhanced the leveling potential of the lower end Jedi.
I'm going to have to seriously dissagree with you on this one. Having played a low-level Jedi in the new system for the past month, the leveling potential is very far below what it was in the past.
Yes, you increased our regen and force pool, but you also increased the force cost of specials quite a bit.
Coupled with the fact that we have no damage mitigation skills (or armor) at lower levels, this means that you have to get in, kill the mob as fast as you can (since you can not take hits anywhere near as good as previously). This means that you have to use specials, which eats up your force pool much faster, which in turn leads to downtimes between fights.
Couple all of this with the fact that the amount of Jedi experience now needed has been greatly increased, it makes for a much longer grind than before.
Thunderheart wrote:
21. Jedi cannot block melee attacks....at all. This is unacceptable.
Jedi are not being designed to be the perfect solo character that can defend against all other classes. Jedi are not “scrappers” and by definition, Teras Kasi was developed specifically to fight Jedi at close range.This will be especially true when Jedi are given the ability to block ranged attacks back at their opponents. Melee attacks are something the Jedi should be wary of.
Again, this is fine from a PvP point of view, but is really a big problem in the PvE portion. We need 36 Million Jedi XP to get to the PvP portion of the profession, and virtually everything that gives us that experience uses melee attacks on you.
Given the fact that PvE is pretty much an incredibly difficult portion of the profession already, we really need some kind of defenses while we are still working towards the PvP portion of the profession.
Given the current implementation, anyone that wants to go into the FRS System needs 3 things, Master Lightsaber to deal damage, Master Enhancer to prevent damage being done to you (Force Armor and Shield, Force Drain) and at least Healing 4000. This pretty much guarantees that all Jedi that enter the FRS portion and want to be competitive in the system will all have the same template anyway. Relaxing the skill point cost will not change this in any way, but it will however make it much more enjoyable getting to the FRS system. Again, lower level Jedi need access to more skills to be able to make it a fun game play experience to get to the Jedi FRS system. I understand that you guys believe that the 5 separate trees with high skill point costs will deter dabbling in the Jedi profession, but I respectully dissagree. People will continue to dabble, and I am almost willing to bet that we are going to see a whole lot of TKM's with Force Hearing 4/0/0/0 and Enhancement 0/4/0/0. Also, considering that we have 24 skill points tied up in skills that you have stated will be useless to us, relaxing the skill points needed just makes sense.Thunderheart wrote:
27. Overall skill point requirements need to either be reduced or one tree collapsed. Having to spend 24 skill points in force sensitive skills that do NOTHING for Jedi and having all skill boxes RAISED in skill cost is a very bad combo. 8,6,4,2 is simply too restrictive. We have jedi coming from a system where you can have all powers, to a system where you can not possibly have even the most basic powers and be viable. That's just not "fun." This revamp is about what is fun, as much as what is good for the game as a whole. We aren't looking for overpowered here, but we would like to be able to have viable templates and still have enough points to learn some of the necessities such as Meditate and Force run. Please lower the skill requirements to 7,5,3,1 which will let Jedi master 2 trees and achieve 4444 in another. This is hardly overpowered, will still allow for great diversification between Jedi, and will discourage dabblers. Please do us this one favor, it is not asking too much.
Now on to a general observation. This revamp was thoroughly tested in the top end of the profession, but it really did not get sufficient testing of the lower level Jedi experience. Yes, I know that you had tons of people with just novice Lightsaber on TC2, but most of them gave up because it took so long to obtain a single new skill box, and they could lose it at any point in time. You guys made some progress towards making the grind bearable, but it simply needs more testing. The PvE portion of lower level Jedi is simply not fun at the moment, in fact, the old system was more enjoyable than the new one. Please, use this last week to set up a testing environment on TC2 where people have to play at various levels in the leveling process, because once this patch hits live, the low level Jedi are in for a world of hurt.
Currently Jedi have no ability to block aginst other melee fighters it should be the other way around.
You have a jedi with a lightsabre fighting a fencer with his stun baton. The are fighting and the fencer "blocks" the lightsabre with his baton. LOL whats going to happen to the baton when it hits the lightsabre?
My guess it will get chopped into 2. So in LOGIC melee professions that use swords/pikes/batons/sticks etc should have no block vs Jedi
Thunderheart wrote:
Melee mitigation is going away for PvP for everyone very soon.We are evaluating alternate ways to make the Defense Tree more desirable.
Define "very soon" -- aftre the Combat Balance? What, 3, maybe 4 months from now? What are Jedi to do in the interim? Why not just put Melee Mitigation in there temporarily to bring them in line with the other melee classes until the Combat Balance?
This is extremely unbalancing and not a viable course of action. However, meditating is part of what it means to be a Jedi and we are looking into adding meditation emotes for Jedi after this publish goes out.
How exactly is this unbalancing? As it is, the first thing a Jedi does when s/he logs in is look for a Doctor to buff them, so it's not as if it would introduce an unforseen effect of overall gameplay or balance. Jedi are already not reliant on entertainers for healing mind wounds and battle fatigue, and not reliant on doctors for healing health and action wounds. Why should they be reliant on doctors for a stat boost?
The Jedi Development team is against balancing these combat features with the robes. We will work to balance resists to poisons/fire/etc.in a different manner and report back to you.
So what you're saying is that Jedi, who are forced to grind for dozens of millions of experience points, will have to endure all of that completely unarmored? What happens to the Jedi that do NOT have force armor as a part of their template? I'll tell you -- they're screwed, that's what happens to them -- Jedi have no melee defenses to speak of, remember? As it currently stands, we are entirely reliant on our armor to protect us and reduce damage during the course of grinding, or in PVP combat.
What happened to the development team telling us that the robes would have resistances?
Additionally, when lightsabers are deconstructed, the pearls are un-tuned.
Spasmolyticwrote:
[... irrelevant intro deleted ...]
And additionally, most of these Guardians, and I'm sure loads of other Jedi that PVP, have invested a HUGE amount of time finding all -9 pearls or crystals for their Lightsabers so that they can be effective in PVP, yet the conversion process upon breaking down a Lightsaber does NOT give you stats that are in line with the original stats.
As an example, one of the Jedi in my guild has 3 PVP lightsabers that were filled with -9 and -8pearls and crystals. One one-handed saber with 5 -9 pearls in it, one dual-bladed saber with 4 -9 twin crystals in it, and one two-handed saber that has 4 -8 pearls in it. He spent an insane amount of time acquiring these pearls and crystals so that he could be effective in PVP, quite literally months. Not only did he spend an inordinate amount of time gathering these components, but the guild and his friends spent a huge amount of time helping him acquire these.
Upon breaking down these sabers, he didn't get a SINGLE -9 Pearl. Not a one. All of his hard work in getting these components has been tossed out the window. On top of the breaking down of those sabers into their respective components, he had a stash of pearls and crystals on the order of about 20. Out of all of those, not a single -9 pearl or crystal was gained during the conversion process. The best force cost reduction he got were 2 pearls, one -8 and one -7.
So out of over 30 crystals and pearls, not a single was -9, and only one -8 and one -7; the rest were all -3, -4 and -5. That is a huge slap in the face to all Jedi that spent the time gathering specific stat pearls and crystals, and to the people that helped them get the items.
This issue needs to be addressed before the publish goes live.
There are a couple of points to consider.There are community resources to help find and identify these resources and also to purchase them on the open market.The other concern to consider is that Culsion is only required in 3rd and 4th generation.As far as the challenge of crafting the saber goes, this is the nature of the crafting system. More advanced components require the rare specific resources. We can see that all servers have had a spawn of this material within a reasonable time frame.
Sabers by Design are NOT part of the crafting system.
All it takes is ONE spawn of good Culsion and no one will ever need it again. Since sabers dont decay there is no reason to bother with again. The amount needed for each saber is so incredibly small that one person could harvest all the culsion the whole jedi community would ever need. SO having a limitation on it doesnt seem exactly right since all it does is make some servers have incredibly good Sabers and others having incredibly terrible sabers. Now if you increased the resources by 10,000 times, then maybe you would have people worrying about making a saber. Right now though its all a wait and see game until the best resources are gained, then its game over for the saber making.
Sabers at their core are 90% of the damage the saber system has. This can be modified by upto 4 crystals which add very little to the finished product. So in the end we will all be the same so why put such huge restrictions on the sabers since they will all be basically the same?
TorakWavestrider wrote:
6. Meditation is the core of being a Jedi. It is the first thing every Jedi does in canon. Meditation should be moved to the Enhancement Novice box, with +meditation mods up the Synergy Tree along with Power boost EXACTLY like the TKA meditation line.
This is extremely unbalancing and not a viable course of action. However, meditating is part of what it means to be a Jedi and we are looking into adding meditation emotes for Jedi after this publish goes out.
Is it just me, or is TH saying that giving Jedi EXACTLY the same meditate as tka, would be unbalancing? And therefore admiting that TKA meditate is unbalanced and therefore overpowered?
TKA are the "Jedi Killers" so making us equal would somehow unbalance their vision of the TKA proffesion.
Atiw wrote:
Now on to a general observation. This revamp was thoroughly tested in the top end of the profession, but it really did not get sufficient testing of the lower level Jedi experience. Yes, I know that you had tons of people with just novice Lightsaber on TC2, but most of them gave up because it took so long to obtain a single new skill box, and they could lose it at any point in time. You guys made some progress towards making the grind bearable, but it simply needs more testing. The PvE portion of lower level Jedi is simply not fun at the moment, in fact, the old system was more enjoyable than the new one. Please, use this last week to set up a testing environment on TC2 where people have to play at various levels in the leveling process, because once this patch hits live, the low level Jedi are in for a world of hurt.
Uh, because it is a game and no one is supposed to have an automatic "I Win" option.
GuanYing wrote:
Why is "balance" brought up so much as a reason not to make needed improvements? I thought you guys said you wanted jedi to be as amazing as they can get?? Jedi from the movies were overwhelming!! and very powerful in an UNBALANCED way compared to non jedi. Thats supposed to be the point...
T-Bone78 wrote:
TorakWavestrider wrote:
6. Meditation is the core of being a Jedi. It is the first thing every Jedi does in canon. Meditation should be moved to the Enhancement Novice box, with +meditation mods up the Synergy Tree along with Power boost EXACTLY like the TKA meditation line.
This is extremely unbalancing and not a viable course of action. However, meditating is part of what it means to be a Jedi and we are looking into adding meditation emotes for Jedi after this publish goes out.
Is it just me, or is TH saying that giving Jedi EXACTLY the same meditate as tka, would be unbalancing? And therefore admiting that TKA meditate is unbalanced and therefore overpowered?
TKA are the "Jedi Killers" so making us equal would somehow unbalance their vision of the TKA proffesion.
Burr wrote:
Uh, because it is a game and no one is supposed to have an automatic "I Win" option.
GuanYing wrote:
Why is "balance" brought up so much as a reason not to make needed improvements? I thought you guys said you wanted jedi to be as amazing as they can get?? Jedi from the movies were overwhelming!! and very powerful in an UNBALANCED way compared to non jedi. Thats supposed to be the point...
Already got those: TKA/Fencer/Sword templates for PvE, and CM's for PvP
All for far far less time investment and effort.
Even Jedi Masters fall well short of the 'I Win' button mark in PvP, given group TEF tactics, Warcry, Flame DOT, Poisons, etc... the basic PvP problems affect everyone. It's just Jedi lose XP/rank for it.
Ren