Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Publish 8.2 Feedback: Death Watch Bunker
pseudoroom
Tue May 25, 2004 4:53 pm
#66
LLJK_Griz wrote:
pseudoroom wrote:
I also agree on this verbatim. I've seen Geo sonic blasters going for well over a million (for a gun!!) due to its rarity...can you imagine the DE-10's fetching fee? It'll be unreal. The addition of new weapons (particularly pistols, being a pistoleer) is very welcomed, but, I disagree in the manner in which they're being added...a point Attichetcuk nailed perfectly.The GSB is expensive because the schematic is super rare and it's actually GOOD. DE-10 barrels and schematics seem to be fairly common, and it kinda sucks. DPS is worse than a DX2 or something unless you have 90+ pistol speed to speed up the abysmally slow DE-10.
I disagree on the schematic and barrel being "fairly common", but the barrel on TC was dropping without stats, which was an error. Also, along with the pistol being created with the combat balance already in mind, its Master cert takes advanced pistol speed inherently into consideration.
HimFan
Tue May 25, 2004 4:54 pm
#67
KapowBzapp wrote:
Will you please honestly answer, is 5% of the players soloing the Corvette WORSE than all other players being unable to enjoy it?.
ZING!
TrekDude
Tue May 25, 2004 4:55 pm
#68
So...what the heck is the point of this?Was at this place for 2 hours. The ONLY loot I got was off an astromech droid. It was a gel filter for the breath masks to keep you from getting poisined in the alum mines. We couldn't even get past the second room because the only NPC that drops the key was camped by 8+ groups
Thewhole placeis filled with SBD, BD, and Mandolorian deathwatch guards. NONE OF THESE DROP LOOT.
SBD and BD are friggen easy to kill, but they take 10 TO 15+ MINUTES EACHand you CAN'T put ANY states at ALL (not even burn) on them.
So, I'm a TKA/rifleman. The only thing I'll get out of this place, is busted armor, busted guns, and wasted time. (if I'm lucky, in a few weeks maybe a set of BH armor)
Not to mention all the idiotic morons who run down, aggro 15 SBDs on them, and run to the top. That is how our group finally died.
HimFan
Tue May 25, 2004 5:02 pm
#69
Ufgood-Zep wrote:
Completely agree with pretty much everything said here, dont even need to comment.
BUT
Has anyone looked down the road to see how this is going to be with the combat revamp? Armor and weapons getting toned down and we're supposed to do this or the corvette then? If its a complete pain in the ass to do now how are we supposed to do it when were all stuck in 60% composite thats suddenly vulnerable to several damage types ?
AT LEAST GIVE ME MOBS I CAN FRIGGIN INTIMIDATE.
I know i have! They will need to do a wide scale revamp on just about everything form crafting to mobs for the combat revamp.
Tsalmaveth
Tue May 25, 2004 5:03 pm
#70
I understand the concept for forced grouping. With Higher hammed npc's or creatures, you get the difficulty that you are looking for without having to take the time to create a totally new model and adjust it accordingly. You can take a kreetle and ramp it's stats up to 300k while making it 80% resistant to everything. Is it a new creature? Is it some mutant form of Super Kreetle? Nope, it's just a way of quickly adding in something hard to beat on.
Everyone complains about no worthy content to fight. They complain about the fact that only a serious minority of stacked professions can manage to accomplish anything on a serious scale. I.E Krayt hunting, Aklay hunting, Night Sister Leader hunting, etc.. I think most of the problem revolves around the idea of the social world the Developers want to create where there is interdependency among players to accomplish anything of real note. While this is not a bad idea, it is not practical given that the majority of thier subscription base prefer to accomplish their objectives solo. For most of us, there is more satisfaction derived from over coming a certain enemy or achieving a certain goal through our own ingenuity as opposed to having made it through by relying on the fact that our buddy was a Master Doctor and kept the heals and buffs coming.
The Deathwatch Bunker is a classic case of what happens when the people in charge of the design are not on the same wavelength as the gamers that will be using the bunker as a way to enrich their game lives. Should the bunker require a group to storm it? Yep. For serious pay offs like Mandalorian Armor, Jet Packs, Hacks and the like, it should be a team effort to accomplish. Should it have been instanced? Most Definantly. It is much easier to get the same satisfaction of achieving something solo even in a group as long as the groups require can be kept relativly low. I think that most people would have no problem grabbing 10 of their closest gaming companions and giving the bunker a spin. But requiring multiple groups of 20 takes away any personal sense of satisfaction. You hardly feel like you are contributing anything other than an extra gun or body for someone to hide behind.
My thoughts are that it should have been instanced and the difficulty set at an appropriate level for a group of 20 of mixed levels. I know that when you group for money paying missions, the difficulty level is determined by not only the size of the group but also by the weapons that are being fielded at the time the mission is pulled up. I would have it so that it looks at a particular stat of each player such as Def vs Ranged and Def vs Melee then totals it for the group and assigns a particular difficulty level for the instanced bunker. This would make it specifically challenging for THAT particular group and of an easier nature for less experienced or stacked groups. I would also have made the loot payout dependant on the Difficulty level of the group attempting it. For example, a group containg 20 people of Master Level with a Def. vs Ranged and Def vs Melee totalling 8,400 points (200 points for each person in both Def vs Ranged and Def vs Melee in a group totaling 20 people) would have a tailored bunker that would be both challenging and have the highest payoff (In this case, the ability to craft Mandalorian Armor) A group consisting of 4 people with a combined difficulty rating of 1000 points would also have an adventure that while challenging would be within their abilities to complete if they are properly prepared and that would also see a payoff by allowing them to get the new pistol schematic or the jetpack. All available loot could fall within certain difficulty ratings. The jetpack could be looked at as a proper pay off for a group with a difficulty rating of 200 - 400. The pistol could be a grouped difficulty rating of 500 -650. And so on and so forth. Everyone would be able to achieve atleast something from attempting the new content.
For me, the best out come would have been to use the above formula in an instanced dungeon. No respawn. (If it is sufficiently challenging for the group going in, that should be enough to accomplish what is desired by both the Developers and Gamers.) If you have good enough to clean out the spawn in your way, you should have earned the right to craft in peace. For something like Mandalorian, you could make it that the crafters can only craft that item 1 time for each trip that is made for the bunker. This would force the group to come together again in the same difficulty mix to attempt creating the next set of items. This would slow down the amount of Mandalorian Armor coming into the population while still allowing them to obtain it. This not only has the effect of requiring people to make the contacts nessesary to form the required group difficulty level, but also helps keep rarity to a rare item. Another benefit is that you would focus people on what exactly each combat profession brings to them in abilities such as the Def vs Melee of a Fencer over a Master Swordsman.
But this is just my own feelings on the matter.
Tsalmaveth
Tue May 25, 2004 5:04 pm
#71
I understand the concept for forced grouping. With Higher hammed npc's or creatures, you get the difficulty that you are looking for without having to take the time to create a totally new model and adjust it accordingly. You can take a kreetle and ramp it's stats up to 300k while making it 80% resistant to everything. Is it a new creature? Is it some mutant form of Super Kreetle? Nope, it's just a way of quickly adding in something hard to beat on.
Everyone complains about no worthy content to fight. They complain about the fact that only a serious minority of stacked professions can manage to accomplish anything on a serious scale. I.E Krayt hunting, Aklay hunting, Night Sister Leader hunting, etc.. I think most of the problem revolves around the idea of the social world the Developers want to create where there is interdependency among players to accomplish anything of real note. While this is not a bad idea, it is not practical given that the majority of thier subscription base prefer to accomplish their objectives solo. For most of us, there is more satisfaction derived from over coming a certain enemy or achieving a certain goal through our own ingenuity as opposed to having made it through by relying on the fact that our buddy was a Master Doctor and kept the heals and buffs coming.
The Deathwatch Bunker is a classic case of what happens when the people in charge of the design are not on the same wavelength as the gamers that will be using the bunker as a way to enrich their game lives. Should the bunker require a group to storm it? Yep. For serious pay offs like Mandalorian Armor, Jet Packs, Hacks and the like, it should be a team effort to accomplish. Should it have been instanced? Most Definantly. It is much easier to get the same satisfaction of achieving something solo even in a group as long as the groups require can be kept relativly low. I think that most people would have no problem grabbing 10 of their closest gaming companions and giving the bunker a spin. But requiring multiple groups of 20 takes away any personal sense of satisfaction. You hardly feel like you are contributing anything other than an extra gun or body for someone to hide behind.
My thoughts are that it should have been instanced and the difficulty set at an appropriate level for a group of 20 of mixed levels. I know that when you group for money paying missions, the difficulty level is determined by not only the size of the group but also by the weapons that are being fielded at the time the mission is pulled up. I would have it so that it looks at a particular stat of each player such as Def vs Ranged and Def vs Melee then totals it for the group and assigns a particular difficulty level for the instanced bunker. This would make it specifically challenging for THAT particular group and of an easier nature for less experienced or stacked groups. I would also have made the loot payout dependant on the Difficulty level of the group attempting it. For example, a group containg 20 people of Master Level with a Def. vs Ranged and Def vs Melee totalling 8,400 points (200 points for each person in both Def vs Ranged and Def vs Melee in a group totaling 20 people) would have a tailored bunker that would be both challenging and have the highest payoff (In this case, the ability to craft Mandalorian Armor) A group consisting of 4 people with a combined difficulty rating of 1000 points would also have an adventure that while challenging would be within their abilities to complete if they are properly prepared and that would also see a payoff by allowing them to get the new pistol schematic or the jetpack. All available loot could fall within certain difficulty ratings. The jetpack could be looked at as a proper pay off for a group with a difficulty rating of 200 - 400. The pistol could be a grouped difficulty rating of 500 -650. And so on and so forth. Everyone would be able to achieve atleast something from attempting the new content.
For me, the best out come would have been to use the above formula in an instanced dungeon. No respawn. (If it is sufficiently challenging for the group going in, that should be enough to accomplish what is desired by both the Developers and Gamers.) If you have good enough to clean out the spawn in your way, you should have earned the right to craft in peace. For something like Mandalorian, you could make it that the crafters can only craft that item 1 time for each trip that is made for the bunker. This would force the group to come together again in the same difficulty mix to attempt creating the next set of items. This would slow down the amount of Mandalorian Armor coming into the population while still allowing them to obtain it. This not only has the effect of requiring people to make the contacts nessesary to form the required group difficulty level, but also helps keep rarity to a rare item. Another benefit is that you would focus people on what exactly each combat profession brings to them in abilities such as the Def vs Melee of a Fencer over a Master Swordsman.
But this is just my own feelings on the matter.
ZabrakEnforcer
Tue May 25, 2004 5:05 pm
#72
good god is this bunker only for a group of 25 jedi masters? the difficulty of the super droids and battle droids and the wraiths are high enough but then once you kill them they have already respawned. **edit**? the respawn rate is WAY too high. there has been a group of over 100 people there with jedi knights, force masters and nobody was makeing a dent in the place. once you would advance a little you would be overcome by insane resist enimies with either medium or heavy armor and they you would run back to find the room you just cleared is full again and they all aggro on you too. its pointless in doing it. my armor got so messed up there is no point in trying. lets try and make a dungeon that doesnt require 20 jedi masters in the group to survive. jeez did you guys even test to see how insane it is? the super battle droids are so tough that it takes a group of 20 people easily 10-15 minutes to kill. god dam it was so rediculous the spawn rate of totally uber npcs i felt like putting on a god mode code or something, because i honestly see no other way in succesfully making it through that place. i mean come on devs, a krayt dragon would get its ass kicked in that place with the difficulty of the enimies and their respawn rate. how do you expect us to do it?
i dont think of myself as a weak combat player but god dam i felt like it in there. im a tkm with good medic skills and mch. i was tanking pretty good with my 80% kinetic, energy, electricy, and 70% base composite. but once i killed something there it was again. gimme a figgin break. either make the npcs a hell of a lot weaker or lower the respawn rate considerably. jeez all i can do is shake my head at that place and wonder how you expect anyone to complete it.
yarble
Tue May 25, 2004 5:09 pm
#73
i think it was great. devs you did a great job. unfortunatly im only 4443 tk and i wasnt able to kick ass as much as the rest of my group, actually i only got to the 2nd or 3rd room before being laid out by a sbd, but it was so awsome. i plan on going back later, but hopfully i can get my final 50k combat xp so i can actually give a hand. one suggestion though, i do agree with the folks that said that these hardcore lairs dont lean towards meleer's. maybe through some sbd and bd that are effected by kinetic rather than only acid and electricity. but other wise i think the difficulty is perfect. it should be hard, near impossible, look at the loot. Mandolorian armor has been the most coveted armor since launch and if we want it, we need ot work for it like big boys and girls.
its good to see you guys are working for you money.
3D4D
Tue May 25, 2004 5:15 pm
#74
AlaManQ5 wrote:
4) Battle Droids...is it me or do these guys even EXIST in the Star Wars Continuity at this time the game is set it? As it stands, Battle Droids exist at the wrong time, and have exaggerated levels of difficulty. Padme shot a Battle Droid in the head and downed it instantly, and Jedi and Clone Troopers made short work of Super Battle Droids. Their strength is in NUMBERS, not individual strength.
Didn't you know that Padme and the Clone Troopers were Exploiters? but no worries, I have contacted the CSRs and they assured me that they will be perma banned.
yarble
Tue May 25, 2004 5:15 pm
#75
oh one more thing. asides from the whine factor, why is mandolorian armor reserved for only commandos and bh's. arent mandolorians mercenaries???? no one else gets profession specific armor. if someone gets through this dungeon, i think it gives them the right ot wear it. dont you??????
RonninOtnemem
Tue May 25, 2004 5:16 pm
#76
Let's see what we have here....
We have the Corellian Corvette on both steroids (SBDs + Mandos + DW) AND speed (1 minute respawn intervals)...
Dozens of "solo-ers" and campers in addition to the many groups (bunker not instanced 
)...
At least one specific NPC with a required loot to continue (that spawns with longer intervals than the others)...
Confusing directions from supposed "mission givers" (several groups didn't even know Boba Fett was in the equation)...
And timed sessions for the crafters (not to mention lag and crafting don't mix)...
All for a few pieces of super rare armor, jetpacks with 5 needed components and more weapon schematics.
...So, why, exactly?
Saratoga
Tue May 25, 2004 5:18 pm
#77
Its another Corellian Corvette. Out of the 10, 000 people they say have completed it is only about 2000 different people. Will go there maybe 2 or 3 times and then back to the Genosian Labs. Way too hard. When will the Devs realize people want to fight in small groups 3-5 people. Not worth the armor destroyed. No loot drops. Why am I even here? Many of my friends left for CoH after being disappointed by the CC. I will still hang on, but I can see the frustration by the game design going the wrong way. Dungeons should be aimed at groups of casual players. Who cares if the super uber elite can solo it. Keeps loot prices down that way. THe only thing that keeps most of us in this game are friends and the space expansion. Peace.
Whitus
Tue May 25, 2004 5:19 pm
#78
<snip>
Congrats Devs, the past month you spent designing this dungeon....here is your customer. As for the rest of us with jobs and families, etc....
I'm not sure what youre trying to say here? the PA group we took there was a mixture of different people with different play styles ... many with jobs, families, tendancy to go outdoors etc. 
We had all sorts on the hunt, casual players, more 'dedicated' players, hologrinders and a variety of different classes.A couple of bounty hunters, some melee fighters for tanking duties and not all Master either. We even had our master musician and our master dancer down there with us, and 1 of our party doesnt wear anything other than bone armour!