Development Cycle Archive
Thread: Community Relations Follow-up
aazatgrabya wrote:
A very nice post. Many thanks for the info. I've not had any real time to read or even post on these boards recently and there's no change here so this'll be much shorter than I'd like, but I feel I must comment on one item in your post: Polls.
Now I completely follow your philosophy on this and in essence agree,however, I think there is one fundamental issue missing. Integration of the whole community. By this I mean involving those who rarely log onto the forums as they, for whatever reason, find the huge amount of content overwhelming and often difficult to sift through. Using the polls for simple questions like the ones you mentioned, your favourite ship for instance is a subtle way for those who rarely get actively involved with the community to participate. It's far from a final solution to greater involvement, but it does add interest in an environment that can seem dull and I can see that to be nothing but advantageous to the overall feel of this forum.
No arguement here. As I said, I don't have a problem with polls like that because they are not only fun, but they can also provide useful information to the Development Team.Polls are just one tool that can be used when making a decision. My main pointwas that they shouldn't be used as the "end-all-be-all" of that decision making process. While it is true that the forumsdo not represent the entire community, they do represent a good cross-section.
)Message Edited by Gizmarke on 01-11-2005 01:54 PM
Crizis wrote:
BleuDestiny wrote:
DarthRoe wrote:
BleuDestiny wrote:
Further, Forums feedback issues aside, your initial post sounds like a bitching session from the Devs, and is 3/4ths what you're going to hold players accountable for in behavior, and not what you're going to do for the players, and more of what you're not going to do for the players.
The sound of this thread sounds like nothing has changed. It reads like a player bashing and trumpeting the old corps SOE team lashing back at the community. Thou shalt not abuse thy forums. Yeah its our fault we have issues that aren't being replied to, its our fault they dont have clear forums organization to actually go out and solicit our input and feedback, rather than hide it from us in the professions forums. I read alot about what is expected of our forums behavior, dont hear alot about forums moderators' behavior and abuse of peeps attempting to give input but not having a place to do so that meets their inadequate forums structure, such as:
- Jedi and game balance
- PvP vs PvE and respecting both classes of players
- Inadequate storage in lots
- Lack of viability or lack of equity (skill pts.) of all professions that aren't combat or weaponsmith/armorsmith toons
- FRS and forced PvP
- Faction-related game elements and design
- What else, proly dozens more not specific to a Profession per se, but the general game experience...
Where do we discuss these things
Yeah, why was that even necessary. I'm in the marketing business, and why was it necessary for there to be a message about "you shall behave and we will be strict" needed here at all?
Here's the way I see it.
The positive elements of this message should have come out, and that's positive as it relates to the player!
A separate message could have come out as an announcement that in order to clear up community particiaption, "we will begin to more rigorously enforce forum standards of conduct, please review the expectations here," kind of message. What's the positive elements of this message have to do with the negative elements that should be separate or not at all? Nothing. Why piss off a pissed off constituancy with a mixed message of "good things coming," and "your behavior is bad and will need to improve or you will be disciplined." ???
What it does tell me is two things:
- We have more green talent on board to deal with our community, and that's not generally a good thing
- There's politics behind the scenes that means that someone who lead us to this point of frustration is still behind the scenes pushing buttons, and this so-called relations person had to placate the Uber power with, "yes I'll certainly set the expectation that those kids need to behave themselves message," even though its less effective to the results intended to achieve with the thread
Neither good. And yes we do need a prominent place to broader types of game issues.
In previous games I've played there was a /survey or /poll command (in game)that would allow people to Interact if they wanted to in game, get a small treat out of it and be a part of the bigger picture.
Calandryll_SOE wrote:
No arguement here. As I said, I don't have a problem with polls like that because they are not only fun, but they can also provide useful information to the Development Team.Polls are just one tool that can be used when making a decision. My main pointwas that they shouldn't be used as the "end-all-be-all" of that decision making process. While it is true that the forumsdo not represent the entire community, they do represent a good cross-section.
Message Edited by Darksfallen on 01-11-2005 01:59 PM
Calandryll_SOE wrote:
Novock wrote:
I ceratinly understand a desire to keep things in line but i inherently see a problem with this to which you didn't address and would hope that you would. In the past i have had some negative feedback posts deleted. They contained no offense language name calling or Nazi comparisons. they were simply a critique of what I believed was wrong and need to be fixed. They were then deleted by a moderator. The problem is I recieved no message as to why they were deleted.It seems if you are going to have a policy of deleting posts you deem "flaming" as opposed to "constructive criticism" you are implementing a very subjective policy. What maybe be consisder constructive-criticism to one Mod maybe going to far to another one. Anywho thats the nature of the beast, my problem is when we get a post deleted we recieve no notice of why the post was deleted. If you are going to delet a post I believe you should tell us why and not just say it was inviolation but say exactly what in teh post was in violation. i believe that to be only fair otherwise how do we know in such a subjective policy that we are not simply being silenced for bringin up something SOE doesn't want brought up. I had a post deleted why, all it contained was quotes from TH's posts LOL
Calandryll_SOE wrote:
Stricter moderation
Yes, this is a good thing. One of the biggest problems we face as community representatives is sifting through flames in order to find the useful posts. We are going to be more diligent with our moderation. That doesn’t mean you can’t post constructive criticism, but calling us Nazis, writing rants, and posting off-topic in an attempt to derail threads where we ask for specific information doesn’t help us or help you. In truth, we aren’t changing our board posting guidelines at this time (if we do change anything we’d let you know) we are simply going to start enforcing them a little more diligently.
Another change to moderation is we are going to be tying board accounts directly to in-game accounts. What I mean by this is infractions for board conduct can become a mark on your account. To be clear, NOBODY is going to get a mark just for writing criticisms or posting negative feedback. These marks will act just like an in-game infraction and will be used to determine if an account needs further discipline or not. Understand that we are not out to “get” anyone. We aren’t going to mark someone’s account just because they post a topic to the wrong board once or anything like that. But in order for moderation to really have an impact it must have teeth.
Note that the Community Relations team and board moderators will NOT be making decisions on whether an account is actually banned. That will be left up to the same people who have always made decisions on player discipline in order to ensure that we are consistent. Our primary job will remain to communicate with you and take your concerns to the Development Team. We WANT your constructive feedback, positive or negative, and we want to make these boards the best tool possible for you to give us that feedback.
An official announcement will be posted to the site in the very near future once this policy goes into effect. I expect this will cause some people to bristle, but I can promise you it will make the boards a better place to visit and post ideas, criticisms, and feedback for those who are genuinely interested in affecting positive change for SWG.
Keep in mind that we aren't going to mark someone's account every time we have to delete a post. Marking accounts is mostly reserved for really offensive stuff or continual poor behavior. So if someone posted off-topic in a post asking for specific feedback, we might delete the post and leave it at that. If that same person did it over and over again and was repeatedly temp-banned for doing it and just kept doing it, eventually that would lead to a mark.
OK I understand that much but my comments were directed towards giving us some notification of how or why we violated a policy rather than deleting and having no comment why the post was deleted. Will this still be the policy on boards, some Mod finds it violates the rules and deletes but will not tell us why it was deleted we just have to guess? Again this means a Mod can delete any post he/she feels like deleting and since there is no mechanism for challenge or even for knowing who deleted or why the post was deleted there is nothing we can do about it. It sounds to me, especially since you dodge my first comments, that what you are saying is that if we are unhappy with something being done or not have been done and voice those feelings those posts will simply be deleted more often and more frequent than in the past. My guess is that with recent gaming magazines pointing at the comments on the forums as proof of problems in SWG SOE is now actively campaigning to eliminate them and hide the true feelings of many of its customers.
I hope that SOE would address the concerns of its customers rather than simply delete posts and pretend like they don't exist. Anywho i guess that probably qualifies as a "flame" or a "rant" so imagine it will be deleted, by like so many flames and rants they don't start that way they end that way when you have been dodged. Would have been nice though if you answered my original concern. Will you notify why a post was deleted or will you continue on a policy of ... we'll delete what we want and don't have to give a reason?
DancingRhodian wrote:
Crizis wrote:
BleuDestiny wrote:
DarthRoe wrote:
BleuDestiny wrote:
Further, Forums feedback issues aside, your initial post sounds like a bitching session from the Devs, and is 3/4ths what you're going to hold players accountable for in behavior, and not what you're going to do for the players, and more of what you're not going to do for the players.
The sound of this thread sounds like nothing has changed. It reads like a player bashing and trumpeting the old corps SOE team lashing back at the community. Thou shalt not abuse thy forums. Yeah its our fault we have issues that aren't being replied to, its our fault they dont have clear forums organization to actually go out and solicit our input and feedback, rather than hide it from us in the professions forums. I read alot about what is expected of our forums behavior, dont hear alot about forums moderators' behavior and abuse of peeps attempting to give input but not having a place to do so that meets their inadequate forums structure, such as:
- Jedi and game balance
- PvP vs PvE and respecting both classes of players
- Inadequate storage in lots
- Lack of viability or lack of equity (skill pts.) of all professions that aren't combat or weaponsmith/armorsmith toons
- FRS and forced PvP
- Faction-related game elements and design
- What else, proly dozens more not specific to a Profession per se, but the general game experience...
Where do we discuss these things
Yeah, why was that even necessary. I'm in the marketing business, and why was it necessary for there to be a message about "you shall behave and we will be strict" needed here at all?
Here's the way I see it.
The positive elements of this message should have come out, and that's positive as it relates to the player!
A separate message could have come out as an announcement that in order to clear up community particiaption, "we will begin to more rigorously enforce forum standards of conduct, please review the expectations here," kind of message. What's the positive elements of this message have to do with the negative elements that should be separate or not at all? Nothing. Why piss off a pissed off constituancy with a mixed message of "good things coming," and "your behavior is bad and will need to improve or you will be disciplined." ???
What it does tell me is two things:
- We have more green talent on board to deal with our community, and that's not generally a good thing
- There's politics behind the scenes that means that someone who lead us to this point of frustration is still behind the scenes pushing buttons, and this so-called relations person had to placate the Uber power with, "yes I'll certainly set the expectation that those kids need to behave themselves message," even though its less effective to the results intended to achieve with the thread
Neither good. And yes we do need a prominent place to broader types of game issues.
It's funny, because I thought about creating two separate posts and splitting that out. But, I decided to keep it all in one thread because it is so tightly connected to many of the other initiatives. Stricter moderation will make the boards a better place to visit and interact. It's not about bashing players at all. Fact is, the vast majority of players will never get a mark on their account for message board conduct. But it only takes a tiny minority of problem posters to ruin a thread or make it more difficult for us to find useful information.
In my original introduction post, I promised players an update about the upcoming community relations initiatives. To leave a new moderation policy (a critical component of expanding and improving communication) out of that follow-up would have broken that promise. I fully expected some players to bristle at the new policy and I am here to explain it. So sure I could have just posted about the stuff that I knew wouldn't cause any controversy and then hide the controversial stuff, but I prefer being upfront and puttng out the entire plan.Again, to do anything less would be doing you a disservice.
As far as the message boards go, as I said in my original post this is not a closed issue. In fact as I was typing this, Thunderheart came into my office and we discussed it a bit. We agree there are holes in the message board set up but we also feel that a General Discussions forum is not the solution to filling those holes at this time.
Message Edited by Calandryll_SOE on 01-11-2005 02:16 PM
Novock wrote:
Calandryll_SOE wrote:
Keep in mind that we aren't going to mark someone's account every time we have to delete a post. Marking accounts is mostly reserved for really offensive stuff or continual poor behavior. So if someone posted off-topic in a post asking for specific feedback, we might delete the post and leave it at that. If that same person did it over and over again and was repeatedly temp-banned for doing it and just kept doing it, eventually that would lead to a mark.
OK I understand that much but my comments were directed towards giving us some notification of how or why we violated a policy rather than deleting and having no comment why the post was deleted. Will this still be the policy on boards, some Mod finds it violates the rules and deletes but will not tell us why it was deleted we just have to guess? Again this means a Mod can delete any post he/she feels like deleting and since there is no mechanism for challenge or even for knowing who deleted or why the post was deleted there is nothing we can do about it. It sounds to me, especially since you dodge my first comments, that what you are saying is that if we are unhappy with something being done or not have been done and voice those feelings those posts will simply be deleted more often and more frequent than in the past. My guess is that with recent gaming magazines pointing at the comments on the forums as proof of problems in SWG SOE is now actively campaigning to eliminate them and hide the true feelings of many of its customers.
I hope that SOE would address the concerns of its customers rather than simply delete posts and pretend like they don't exist. Anywho i guess that probably qualifies as a "flame" or a "rant" so imagine it will be deleted, by like so many flames and rants they don't start that way they end that way when you have been dodged. Would have been nice though if you answered my original concern. Will you notify why a post was deleted or will you continue on a policy of ... we'll delete what we want and don't have to give a reason?
Boy is that the truth. How often do we hear of disciplinary actions againt "community members" who say they did not rant or be disrespectful, they just posted something the devs didn't want to hear, or posted it in a forum that it "didn't belong in" because there's nowhere generally for us to post, and lordy forbid that they brought the issue up again, or in the same "so-called inappropriate forum" because they weren't responded to the first time, or were locked, or were deleted. Subjects like were mentioned on the previous page, like:
PvP and PvE, Jedi and game balance issues, storage issues, general game complaints like crashes, starship waits, solo groups, I could go on forever.
On the subject of PvP and Jedi game impacts, and FRS, I was suspended for posting "in the wrong forum," when there was no "right forum," and the auto reply I got when trying to log in and finding my account suspended said something about Flaming ???, when I had in fact gone 10 miles out of my way to avoid any negative connotation to my posts whatsoever.