CUEmu - Thread Posts

KaptainKrude

Mon Mar 15, 2004 2:48 am

JCatano wrote:

Repost from Naritus forum:

Matchstick said:

I've made so many posts on this subject my brain is starting to leak out of my head.

Essentially it's the same song that Sandoz is singing.

Bottom line... the content in this game is too easy. One of the primary factors in that is the ability to easily manufacture very high end goods in HUGE quantities. When everyone has the best stuff... what's the point of it all? Crafting has no meaning anymore really for most professions. It's not challenging or exciting. I've made about almost 3 dozen full suits of 63-65% base armor with 20% stun in my spare time. That's just goofing off with armorsmith. With the slices everyone in my guild has full effective sliced armor over with stun protection which with buffs makes you damn near invincible. And since I'm a master doc... guess how often any of my chars run around without buffs?

And it was cake. Why should I, who was just sort of piddling with armorsmith, be able to make products in the realm of what you make?

People are pissed off because it's a natural reaction when they make something that was easy harder. But in the long run... having the game be more challenging will be to everyone's benefit. We'll all enjoy it more. And having resource quality play an even larger role in crafting will really make crafting more interesting to me. People complain because some resources are gated in their stats... or that sometimes you get just TERRIBLE spawns... or that some things rarely spawn if ever.... to which I say... DUH! That's life. Not everything is going to be handed to you. It's supposed to be a challenge.

Anyway... I don't even care anymore. I'm tired of crusading around on this topic and defending what to me is an excellent step in the right direction. People are short sighted and only see things to their personal benefit... then they go make a post the next day about how boring the game is and how there's no content. Whatever. Anyone that wants to quit... quit. You'll be back... they always come back. Cuz we get to fly spaceships soon.

Exactly.

Yep. I think that is exactly correct.

NTyekanik CorrinoN
New Dawn City
Naboo

jefmes

Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:07 am

#639

Likaeus wrote:

jefmes wrote:

Alright, work is slow tonight so I'll bite.

Honestly, I think the Holocrons being pushed into the game were not so much the devs as it was marketing and LucasArts corporate who wanted to get the word out that, "Hey, look! Jedi are in game, just in time for the Holiday season!" Everything we've been told (and not told so directly) leads me to believe this is the truth. I talked to enough of the devs during beta to get a feel for what THEY wanted out of the game, and I still think it did not come from the core team. We all wanted something more mystical than this, more special. I really do think the marketing dept.won out on that one, and money talks.

I'm not sure of the exact timeframe, but I'm pretty sure Holocrons were placed in the game and operational long before the Holidays. People were farming the weapons bunker on Naboo for Holos long before Christmas. Anyway, if we assume your hypothesis is correct (which I agree that it has a certain sense of validity to it), then we have a game that has (at times) a split personality in terms of development and gameplay issues. Probably not one of the best environments to be in, either as a developer or a player.

I don't want to come off as antagonistic towards you. You raise some valid points, as do those who stand on the opposite side of the fence from you. I am curious about one thing though. How can you justify the Chef revamp, given that you think players are extremely overpowered? I mean, here are the players who can already be buffed beyond belief, and you give them even more in the way of decent duration multi-stat buffs that stack? Marketing/LucasArts didn't force that one down their throats. Even if the crafting change goes through as it is currently coded, the amount of buffage a player can achieve is still fairly phenomenal. Add pre-nerf and pre-pre-nerf weapons and armor into the mix and what really has changed? How long will it take for all this stuff to 'cycle out' so that the real effects of the changes to crafting and combat can truly be measured? Do you think the players will tolerate another 'crate lock bug' incident to happen? I mean it appears to have been a fairly transparent ploy to get legacy weapons out of the game.

Best Wishes,

Thanks for the response - I can't write back right now, but if I get the chance tomorrow I will. I don't know where I said I thought players are extremely overpowered, but in general I think they are. Anyhow, I'll write more if I have time tomorrow.

Rodo Doneeta (jefmes)
TCO - Smuggler - Chilastra
Owner of: Rodo's Automatons, Tsarin, Talus
Saving a respec to go home to Droid Engineering...

...when it's more useful!

JCatano

Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:10 am

#640

Ocu_Lus wrote:

Boy, if they back out of this change, I would hate to be in that meeting.

Dev: "Hi, we're here to discuss the implementation of Publish 7."

SOE Exec: "Did everything go as planned? I assume there were some minor bugs, but everything else?"

Dev: "Well, we pulled out the crafting changes that we thought would help the economy based on player feedback.:

SOE Exec: "Oh really? The majority of players didn't want this implemented?"

Dev: "Um, well, less than 10% of the player base voiced a negative opinion towards the change."

SOE Exec: "Hmmmm, they tested it out and didn't like it?"

Dev: "Yeah, sort of. See, of the less than 10% that use the forums, even less than that play on the Test Center server and those are the ones that actually played with the system we were going to implement."

SOE Exec: "I don't understand then. How could the players that didn't use Test Center know that they didn't like the change?"

Dev: "They were basing their opinions on the feedback of the test center players only."

SOE Exec: "So what you're saying is that less than 10% of the players knew that it was coming, and even less than that even tested out the system? So the 90% of players that didn't even use the system will never even find out if they like it or not, because a minority of players said they didn't like."

Dev: "Yes."

SOE Exec: "Now, how many man hours and at what cost did you devote to these changes?"

Dev: "Ummm, Thunderhearts check was $1,000,000.00 plus a small house in the Hamptons for having to deal with irritated players. Tack on about $5000.00 for everyone else, that's about it." C'mon, laugh, it was funny.

SOE Exec: "Alright, just wanted to make sure we were under budget. Thanks."

While yes, this an attempt at humor, you get the point I'm driving at.

Bingo.

That's why it needs to be given a chance. Most of us don't even know what is going to happen, and the ones that have tried it on the TC don't have any real experience with the system in regards to substantial time using it. Making a weapon here and an armor there on the TC for a weekwith no real customers/interaction isn't going to tell anyone much.

And, yes.....

This forum is only a sliver of the playerbase, and the vast majority are just the unhappy players that need a place to vent every day or two. Satisified players don't come here too often.

Kelliannaenwyl

Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:17 am

#641

to nerf or not to nerf? that is the question

just a thought on how to make resources even more important in the crafting process WITHOUT haveing to use 10 experimental points to complete one line (im a master WS so i will base on what i know best Weapons) such as damage/speed

number of emptyboxes in all lines divided by 12(or rather experimental points +2{if you want to get technicall experimental points+20 and thendivided by 10})= the number of boxes a great success will fillcall that GSR a moderate success 50% ofGSR and an Amazing success 150% of GSR this actually allows novice crafters to ALMOST compete with master crafters given the same resources ALMOST BUT NOT QUITE as a master will have a better chance of maxing EVERY line rather then just one and the 'grandmasters' will have an even better chance of making the 'perfect' end product. adjust the math as you see fit you are in defacto control here. if you only wanted us to be able to experiment on one line youve done a good job and after reading these posts i now see how to set myself apart from other masters on my server that is heavy on max damage but doesnt care about accuracy OR durability much less HAM, buffs killed the ham consideration and now the food buffs make ham that much less of a consideration so why have it effect the number of shots OR the ability to wear armour? gee i cant wear my full comp armour set til i get buffed the FIRST time and dont have to worry about it after that unless im a doc or CM oh wait if im a doc i can self buff and if im a CM i know a doc that will PROBABLY buff me for FREE and who doesnt have 6k for a crate of muon gold? a novice artisan and i mean novice can get that in ahhh3 set of missions 1.5 if you consider the roundtrip factor and combat types even faster then that

you talk about the economy being messed up and its the CRAFTERS FAULT WRONG the law of supply and demand dictates prices not the individual crafter or even a group of crafters if you get bought out in an hour you raise your prices till it takes a day to a week to run out what ever you are comfortable with if you stop selling at all you start to lower your prices till you have a balance we only SUPPLY we do not control the DEMAND im glad you have made it ONLY possible to pull the high paying missions while GROUPED but once you have the mission you can leave the group and maintain the same pay for the mission and LOTS of combat templates can solo missions that require large groups to recieve but they dont drop in reward IF you solo them instead they should read as your portion of the reward not the total reward 36K for a bull rancor in a group of 6 (this is typical) should read as 6k same mission in a group of 2 should read 18k same mission in a group of 12 3k this will have a MUCH more desired effect for what you are looking for rather then effecing the supply you are effecting the prices poeple can AFFORD to pay less inflow of money into the system the lower theamount people are willing to pay the more inflow of money the greater amount people are willing to pay when was the last time you saw a working class individual with 4-5 luxury vehicles 4-5 luxuray homes on different continents? YOU HAVEN'T his income wont support it but a major league athlete, highly recognized performer(i.e. acting/music), CEO of a fortune 500 company the multiple vehicles/homes is not uncommon

you are triing to control the economy by effecting the SUPPLY not the DEMAND those that are rich will stay that way (call it exploiting the system or just poor planning on the part of SOE{should have cought it in beta}) BUT it will balance over time as miners will nolonger beable to sell resources at tremendously inflated prices to to crafters that have had to drop thier prices to sell their products THERE IS NO QUICK FIX IN ECONOMY (unless you are willing to put every player in the game on the DOLE there for making it a socialist government{oh socialist governments dont work by the way incase you havent noticed) OR taking all players back to a common starting position by wiping the servers clean no banks no houses no inventory watch how fast people cancel their accounts)

ive said my piece and my peace

Nono_LO

Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:20 am

#642

THIS IS THE LAST VERY JOKE OF THIS GAME

EVERYBODY STOCK TO DEATH OUT OF CRATE (WE HAVE BEEN WARN WITH THE PRE NERF PISTOL ALREADY, SORRY WE WON T GET CAUGHT AGAIN, ALSO I STOCK OUTSIDE OF BAGS, NEVER KNOW WHAT IS COOKING NEXT?).

HOW WILL THIS BRING BALANCED?

HOW WILL NEW PLAYER BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE IN PVP IF THEY DON T HAVE ACCESS TO THE OLD WEAPONS OR AT A UNBELIEVABLE COST WHICH WILL RISE THE MORE THE TIME PASS BECAUSE STOCK WILL LOWER ?

ARE YOU READY TO OFFER NEW SERVER FOR A CLEAN START WHEN THE GAME WILL NOT BE IN BETA PHASE?

WILL YOU HAVE THE BALLS TO DO A WORLD RESET WHEN THE RELEASE CANDIDATE WILL BE BALANCE ?

WILL YOU TAKE OBSOLETE UBER NOT TO BE AT THIS TIME ITEMS FROM PLAYER, FACING A HUGH CRISIS ?

WHEN WILL THE GAME HAVE VENDOR NPC FROM WHICH WE CAN BUY THINGS VERY EXPENSIVE FOR THE MONEY TO DISAPEAR AT LAST, CONTROLLING THE INFLATION? (BUYING STORM TROOPER THINGS OR WHATEVER IS NOT CRAFTABLE, MAKE MONEY GO OUT OF THIS FREAKING GAME !)

YOU SAID THE ECONOMIE IS BROKEN, BUT IF THERE IS A MARKET OF PRE NERF THINGS, YOU WON T SOLVE ANYTHING, JUST KILL THE CURRENT PROFESSION

I think the fix you propose make a lot of sense, but if you don't REMOVE the items NOT MEANT TO BE, it is as usefull a pissing in a violin...

Vinaddar

Mon Mar 15, 2004 3:56 am

#643

I have posted most of this elsewhere, but here goes:

I believe that the "problem" with SWG's equipment is that since it is not a true Level based MMO, it has a serious lack of controls in place to restrict access to the best gear. With no certifications/levels/etc to qualify one to use the top stuff available in the game, we have the entire player base being able to use things that by rights should be EARNED over time invested in the game.

How many of us played 6 months to get our first set of 80%+ composite? And how many of us mastered multiple professions along that same timeline? The point being that there is no paying of duesto get to one's goalsin this game because it is skillpoint based (referring to newer players, I know all too well how many of the crafters went through hell since launch). Take 1 week as a newb doing fast and easy missions, save up enough to buy a set of Ubese, then take another week wearing that and doing harder missions and you can very easily save enough up to buy Composite. From there, the sky is the limit--you can amass wealth, bankroll crafting professions, whatever. The only losers in the change will be the newer crafters. Established artisans will become wealthier, and combat types will still get what they want--just from a smaller pool of crafters.

I don't think certifications for armor or buffs will make much of a difference either except maybe to make us Docs feel needed for a few days for new players, because you can grind up so many of the skill trees in very little time at all. (I holo grinded Tailor in 3.5 hours and that included going back up artisan, just as an example. BH took a total of 7 days and was the slowest profession to master at the time) I was intrigued by the skill point system, but I do not see solutions to many of the problems it creates being easily found.

At this point I would much rather the focus be on adding more end game content and more adventure planets than on bringing the level of available goods down.

Vinaddar

Leonae

Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:27 am

#644

I think to make this change work they need to make - as have others said before, and more eoloquently - to make all the other stats count. Cap buffs, so encumbrance and HAM cost of weapons mean something. Check how much accuracy and range matter. Maybe simply cap weapon damage, so people don't need to max it out anymore.

RSQViper

Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:35 am

#645

In all honesty it looks like the devs are onto something with this new system. The main concern I do have is that eperimentation was cut back too much. It takes all your experiment points for one bar to be filled. I know with BE there are 5 bars that can be adjusted as well as weaponsmith and armoursmith having critical differences in their bars as well. Maybe this is the answer, but just a little too strict.

Maybe make it so you get twice the outcome in an experimentation for those schematics with more than 2 bars. Doing this would add the ability to "play" with your crafting and make sure there is thought given to experimentation because there will still be other areas you could have put the points. People could have the very powerful weapon that is just about as fast as it can be BUT they are going to pay that HAM price because there just aren't any points left over for it. With the system as it is now it's either All power, All speed or All HAMost.

The importance is ballance. For every bar after 3 bars to experiment in, there should be a 33% higher outcome in the experimentation. With this the more bars you have in experimentation the more you can add to, but it won't add up so fast that you could set things to uber outcomes like they absolutely are now and we can have our different outcomes and choices to make while crafting.

I do think the current system on live is not good. But I do think that the system in Test Center is too harsh and hurts more than helps. Although I'm sure the system will hit "as is", I do hope there is a change to follow before the next major publish.

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Pthdora

Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:05 am

#646

/agree

all these ideas are outstanding, I love it, good work, devs you may wanna listen to some of these suggestion from the people who play the game and pay ur overpayed butts

- I support a rollback and keeping & balancing the old combat system.
...and making SWG a better place to be. Your voice counts!

TheOxygen

Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:07 am

#647

JCatano wrote:

Bingo.

That's why it needs to be given a chance. Most of us don't even know what is going to happen, and the ones that have tried it on the TC don't have any real experience with the system in regards to substantial time using it. Making a weapon here and an armor there on the TC for a weekwith no real customers/interaction isn't going to tell anyone much.

And, yes.....

This forum is only a sliver of the playerbase, and the vast majority are just the unhappy players that need a place to vent every day or two. Satisified players don't come here too often.

I think that when some of the actual crafting correspondents come out against a change, it's a good sign that the majority of crafters on live won't be happy with it.

Kiashia

Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:15 am

#648

There is only one truely logicalway to fix the economy. The major flaw in the current system isn't the crafting system. Its supply and demand vs Advertisment that actually works but is not abrasive. The simplest way to bring the economy under control is fan the fire under compeditiveness. How do you achive this?

Central marketing. One place to see all the advertised items your looking for. We have very similar things in the real world. Malls, newspapers,TV,The internet. Prices are kept in check by consumers and people hungry to make sales.

Kiashia [90 Elder Jedi, 90 Spy, 90 Medic, 90 Bounty hunter, 90 Commando] The crystal is the heart of the blade. The heart is the crystal of the Jedi. The Jedi is the crystal of the Force. The Force is the blade of the heart.

nnn((((((((((~~nnnn]~~9X9ggggggggggggggggggggg)

Obi007

Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:17 am

#649

I feel sorry for the devs that have to read all this I haven't read all of it I must confess.

But I think I know what the problem is from both sides. The devs wish to add some hard choices and therefore some variety in crafting and I kinda agree with that. The players problem is the devs are doing this by nerfing every item they are crafting.

I was a master smuggler/weaponsmith as my first character but I got burnt out crafting pretty much when you did the fwg5 nerf, I didn't have a problem with that nerf and infact I kinda agreed with it but theres something about crafting you reach for the better and better item and its mentally a strain when you find your best items being nerfed and you lose a bit of will to carry on with the crafting.

This kind of nerf is really going to make some crafters feel like quiting maybe not the game but the crafting part of it.

The devs either need to add the variety by actually boosting experimentation or they need to give with one hand as their taking away with the other by giving every crafting profession something else (I don't see how you can do this all at once)

Maybe need to change the way experimentation actually works add this new system but maybe add another experimentation stage where you get one special point that acts as double or something.

I just think you need to give back something anything to make this a little easier on the crafters.

dragoaskani

Mon Mar 15, 2004 5:22 am

#650

I would like to add one more thing, after looking at the intrepid boards and the other servers boards, even if you go through with this change dev you will have HUNDREDS to THOUSANDS of Prenerf weapons and armors being sold on the servers, and for prices that will be 2X to 5X the current pricings......lol great economy fix....there are ads up and down these boards making sure ppl know that they can get the "PrePatch weapons and armors" for months and months to come......course by then this game will probably be down from its 100,000 player base to maybe 20,000 and you guys can start on a new game as SOE drops this one like a bad habit.

Development Cycle Archive

Thread: Understanding the Crafting Experimentation Changes