Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-10: Combat Roles; Pistoleer
What defines thePistoleerrole in combat?
In the real world what defines the pistol above all else is range. It is a short range weapon, used because of the amount of flexibility it offers at close quarters, as it can be aimed and fired one handed without the need to close down ones field of vision. Therefore in a game, the Pistoleer should be defined by massive defence and reactive moves, but very poor range.
What basic combat elements should they possess?
High defence, short range, fast firing.
What offensive abilities?
Close quarters moves, with maybe some melee ability.
What defensive abilities?
Should have good defences against melee, as well as good reactives against short ranged attackers, but useless against rifles.
What unique abilities?
Twin weapons, or some other use of the free hand.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
At close quarters should be able to react to all targets from 5-16m as well as a melee reacts to <5m.
How could/should they interact with other professions?
They would protect the riflemen, who have a very low awareness of their close quarters. Would fight just behind the melee troops, picking off the targets as they engage.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Urban fighting, in cities, bases etc where a rifleman cannot stay still and a carbineer lacks the 360 degree firing field needed.
Thunderheart wrote:
Given the basic considerations listed above, please answer the following questions:
What defines thePistoleerrole in combat?
I think the Pistoleer should bedefined as run-and-gun. We are the "John Woo" heroes. We are the people who can run through an opposing force at full speed and still hit each person once in the head. We can empty our entire power-pack into you before you hit the ground. We throw ourselves at an enemy, firing as fast as our fingers can pull the trigger. We are the show-men, flipping pistols, dual-wielding, cocky. Wecare forour guns likea lover. And we have a bunch of them. Weare always prepared. We are at our best in close quarters.
We are not tanks. We are not heavy damage dealers. We are not "1-shot-killers" (per se). We are not long-range combatants. We are not "The Terminator".
What basic combat elements should they possess?
We should be the fastest firing ranged-combat class. 2nd overall in speed only to a TKA. We should be able to fire 2-3 specials in the time for a Rifleman to fire 1. Our specials are not as damaging though (to keep "Damage Per Second" in balance).
We should be extremely accurate at close range (+50 <15-25m). Movement should NOT be a problem for our accuracy because our best range is so short. We should be just as accurate while burst-running around our target as standing still.
Our accuracy should drop horrifically beyond 48m.
I believe Pistoleersshould havea wide variety of damage types available to us since our weapons are generally less "complex" than other types of assault weapons.
What offensive abilities?
I would like tomodel usto bethe TKA's of the ranged-combat profession. We hit fast and we hit often.
I would like usto have more state-effects (dizzy, blind, stun). Since we are such short-range fighters, being able to hit someone in the leg (stun) or near the head (blind) or hitting them with the butt of our pistol (dizzy) should not be far-fetched.
I think continuing to focus on the health bar is acceptable. I would like to see BS3 re-done to be more effective than BS2, considering it IS a Pistoleer-only skill.
We should also continue to have multiple-target shots due to our high speed, simulating our ability to change targets rapidly and fire quickly. But these should be short-range shots. (<48m)
What defensive abilities?
We should be dodging-fanatics. We run...all the time...Therefore we should have a high Dodge. (The Dodge should NOT force us to stop moving though which I understand is being fixed ATM)
I like the all-around defenses we get (vs. Stun, Blind, Dizzy, KD), much like a TKA. I feel this is a fair ability because of our weapons non-encumberance. We don't carry 30-50lb sledge-hammers around.
Defenses should NOT stack among different classes though. I should have to have a 'profession-speciifc' weapon equipped in order to get 'profession-specific' defenses. This is a balance issue that will have to be addressed. I understand that BH's, Smugglers, and such hybrids pose a problem. I am not sure how to address this other than to give each hybrid profession its own weapons. But this solution has been wailed against before (BH's getting Scatter Pistols, Commandos getting Launcher Pistols, Pistoleers able to use neither). But I still think it's the best solution to prevent dabblers from getting an 'uber-unhittable' template.
What unique abilities?
Pistoleers, not Marksmen,deserve to have some better high-end pistols. I believe Pistoleers should have access to more AP1 weapons.
I think at Level IV or Master we should get an AP2 weapon, a la a "Desert Eagle .50" heavy handgun, that has the slowest rating, but the highest damage. It should be VERY nice looking, fairly large, very intimidating. Think an FWG the size of a DX2, chromed. (I'm sure the art department can put together something)
Our BodyShot1, BodyShot2, BodyShot3 should rise in DPS ability as we go up. We should also probably get a BodyShot4 (these numbers are 'for example' Ijustmade them up)
BodyShot1: 100 avg. at 1.25 modifier = 80 DPS
BodyShot2: 200 avg.at1.75 modifier = 114 DPS
BodyShot3: 300 avg. at 2.15 modifier = 139 DPS
BodyShot4: 400 avg. at 2.45 modifier = 163 DPS
HealthShot1 & 2: I think these should stay as they are. Stackable Health Bleeds.
FanShot and Multi-Target Pistol Shot should both continue to be AOE. Fanshot should remain Cone and MTPS should be Area (20-32m diameter), respectively.
A note on Fanshot, why does it aggro everything to me BEFORE I actually do any damage to the critter? I think it evenhappensin PvP as wellwhere I shoot at an opposing force and EVERYONE who is not engaged immediately auto-returns fire at me BEFORE I do ANY damage to them. Can we please remove the "aggro" from the first shot or at least let me actually DO DAMAGE with my first shot if everything is going to come after me anyway?
DisarmingShot1: 5 second delay (non-stackable delay, once every 30-45 seconds)
DisarmingShot2: 10 second delay + Blind (non-stackable delay, once every 30-45 seconds)
PistolMeleeDefense1: Knockdown
(would like to also have +Dizzy, I mean you got hit in the head with a gun!)
PistolMeleeDefense2: Area-Knockdown (5-10m radius)
StoppingShot: Should stay highest damage pistol shot. Also should be +Stun
(ie. likegrazing someone in the head)
Obviously, many of these moves would have to be placed differently in the Pistoleer skill tree because of their power. Right now, all of our useful moves and state defenses are located in one tree (the 3rd tree 0/0/X/0). This will probably need to be changed for balance sake against BH and Smuggler dabblers taking just that one tree to get all our good moves.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
We should be the in-close, just wail on them, person. We have the ability to get in close and do knock-downs, delays, state changes, much like the TKA. We won't be killing them very rapidly, but we can make it much easier for other groups to get their heavy damage shots in.
Also, other groups should be much LESS accurate at close range (15-20m) to compensate for us being so inaccurate outside medium range (40-48m)
How could/should they interact with other professions? What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
We would continue to rely on weapon and armorsmiths to keep us equipped. We would also rely on other slower firing but heavier hitting (but stillbalanced DPS) professions to help us take down larger forces or animals. We would be in continual danger because of our requirement to get in close. Medics / Doctors / CM's would also be required to heal damage that we would inevitably take being so close to the action.
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
I think Pistoleers should be useful in the GCW to apply state effects to large amounts of targets and to be able to attack a large number of targets at once. We would need to run in close to the opposing force and attack while our slower-firing compatriots stayed back and covered us. Almost like infantry from medieval times.
Seeing as how i feel this is more of a PR Move than more of a honest effort to help pistoleeers. I will only add
This is how i beat another fully armored buffed pistoleer..
I do nothing! I sit and soak damage while shooting back with no specials.. I sit there and let them widdle there own mind down while i soak up damage (with 80% comp and damage mit im not taking any)
Then when they are exhuasted i kill them.
Thats how sad pistoleer is right now.
pistoleers use light sidearms firing single shots at a high rate. they have short delays between shots, but the bullets will not do as much damage as rifle rounds and carbineer bursts. pistols are usually used at short ranges because they have bad accuracy at medium and long ranges so that they rarely hit their targets when they are too far away.
the pistols main advantage is the ease of use, allowing ham targeted attacks (Health, maybe Action) while moving.
as pistols are less bulky than the other weapons, state effects like posture changes and knockdown should not work as good against pistoleers as they do against riflemen and carbineers (it is easier to get up with a small pistol than a bigger gun), they also should have the best chances against melee professions when compared to the other ranged professions.
trick shots (like disarm) and multi-shot attacks (like double tap and multi target shot) round up the abilities of a pistoleer.
pistoleers are not suited very well for bigger battles, their main role is fighting at short ranges in small scale skirmishes. they are the most defensive profession of the ranged professions.
Daermoth wrote:
Sorry if I am repeating, but shouldnt Disarming shot actually knock someones weapon out of their hands, i.e. back into their inventory? People would have to learn to keep their weapons on the action bar and pay close attention when fighting a pistoleer. And just like with Panic Shot, using Disarming shot more than once in a short ammount of time would be innefective, as the opponent would be expecting it and 'have a better grip' on their weapon.
Quite. As is, disarming shot only does extra damage to lairs. For one it makes no sense. Secondly, it's nothing like the name. I agree with the above idea.
I have one answer to give to all your questions TH: SPEED.
What defines thePistoleerrole in combat? The Zen and Art of Pistols
What basic combat elements should they possess? The Art of Manuevering, and the Art of Duel Pistols ballet.
What offensive abilities?Quick draw! Disarming shot that is more effective! The ability to never miss.
What defensive abilities? BULLET TIME! hehe jk... Take cover while standing, maybe concealed firing for indoor fighting.
What unique abilities? Definantly being able to customize your pistols, or just pistol tinkering. Duel freaking pistols, PLEASE! Won't fan shot make much more sense with duel pistols? If thats not a unique ability then I'm clueless on what is.
Should add what advantage or asset in group combat? Being able to help conceal your buddies while in combat or even more interesting, while being incapacitated. This will have a 10-20 second timer.
How could/should they interact with other professions? As highly respected officers.
What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants? A swift ass kicking...
What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War? Think Ninja's. The stealth fighters for either faction. The ones that do top secret jobs that need to be quick and clean. They have to work in numbers since their defenses are weak. When you face a group of pistoleers, then you know you pissed someone off and it is a warning before the Commandos will reek havoc.
From my imagination, How each classs can commpliment the other in a pvp battle.
When attacking overt player cities. First wave of offense should be a group of pistoleers,TKAs and Rifleman. Pistoleers must be swift to get to the middle of the fight while TKAs take out Pets or ATSTs,while the Rifleman would sit and snipe what ever is just outside this ring that the pistoleers and TKAs made. Second wave of offense should be Commandos, Carbineers, and Combat Medics. Commandos will cause the distraction to the middle of the field causing all the attention to them. CArbineers will aid the CM to the middle of the field to heal all those that need healing, then the Commandos will aid the TKAs at taking down the tanks. Third and final wave of offense, these soldiers will be the ones to convert the base; bioengineer,smugglers,BH, along with support from the Creature handlers. Rangers, doctors, musicians, dancers, and Rabbis will make camp, heal, and be circumsized in the name of their faction.
Sorry if my imagination is so half ass, i'm not much of a writer.
I agree with most of what has been said in the previous posts, except where above posts contradicts each other 
My thoughts on Pistoleer:
First off, in needs to be a stand alone class. one shouldn't have to take Dirty Fighting or BH pistols tree to be an effective Pistol user. unfortunately, you've made that almost a requirement with the 20+ broken or useless specials in the pistoleer profession. FIX MULTI TARGET!!!!!
Master Pistoleer needs dual wield pistols more than Bounty hunter does (remember, they have 4 weapon tress to chose from: their pistol tree, their carbine tree, the LLC tree, and marksman Rifle tree) while we only have 1. give us dual wield, and write it so we do overall more damage with less accuracy (think D&D rules for this. if you don't know how this works, go get KOTOR or NVN and play a dual wielding character).
Master Pistoleer needs to be the fastest ranged class. it's preposterous in game mechanics that a rifleman can fire faster than I can with my pistol.
The Pistoleer's greatest abilities are the "run and gun", moving while firing with hardly any accuracy loss, and also they should do well against Melee combatants and single Ranged users. Pistoleers should do Poorly against groups of opponents unless supported by Carbineers and Rifleman.
In a group setting, Pistoleers are the harassers. they pick off weakened foes, and are good at instant response to new threats that come up.
Pistoleers need a better elite pistol as well. the DX2 is crap.
please don't turn Pistoleer into an almost-melee profession.. brawlers (PCand NPC)can hit from 20m, and 32m makes for an awfully tiny window. Heck, 64 meters isn't that far in this game...
biwan: