Development Cycle Archive

Thread: IC 1-12: Combat Roles; Rifleman

DVader539
Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:04 pm
#53

Bleh, I gave a quick response with out any real thought put into it. I'll whip up something over the weekend and post it up.

I think a huge division on the Riflemen's niche is present. Snipers? Machinegunners? Both? There has to be something concrete before we can say what our specials are.



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meeuki
Wed Jan 21, 2004 12:10 pm
#54


What defines theRiflemanrole in combat? to force combatants to take cover in order to avoid high damage, AE, state enducing attacks. forcing players to go prone, or come inside a rifleman's best range would improve combat tactics in the game and eliminate the run and gun.


What basic combat elements should they possess? fast, high damage, posture changing AE attacks, with extremely poor modifiers to players prone/in cover. medium to highdamage single pool attacks with high modifiers to opponents in cover.


What offensive abilities? all the ones we have now, with accuracy modifications based on opponent's state. high accuracy at ideal ranges, poor accuracy at close ranges. poor accuracy while moving.


What defensive abilities? little. they should be in trouble if the advancing forcegets pasttheir idea range.


What unique abilities? snipershot


Should add what advantage or asset in group combat? enable players to create defendable fixed positions.


How could/should they interact with other professions? support profession. create distractions for fixed positions, enabling players to advance/flank. viable solo, but only devestatingin cover.


What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants? rifleman should depend on other players to protectthem insidetheir ideal range. other players should depend on the rifleman to assist their advance on a target, and soften up large targets.


What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War? described above. this is all in effort to make cover worthwhile in the game. right now, in PVP,going in cover would probably mean a quick death. the run and gun ensures that. most of pvp (for me at least) consists of deciding what armor and weapon a player has, finding the counter for it, and spamming the 1 shot that will bring them down. occasionally i need to toss a dizzy in, but usually it's either headshot or ss2 with 1 or 2 guns. right now it resembles a game of paper rock scissors, repeated ad nasuem due to the group TEF. making cover functional would change this, but only if it forced other players to slow down.





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Xytroncore
Wed Jan 21, 2004 1:12 pm
#55

lol...this thread is pathetic, ya uh, we want to fire as fast as pistols, never miss no matter where we are in relation to anything, and we want to do 3-4xmore damage then anyone else while doing it too...lmao, pathetic. I don't care if you guys only get this at master, why shouldn't any other master combat class be as potent? I mean they put the time into mastering their proffession too right? lol oh but if everyone was as powerful as riflemen then riflemen would find some reason to complain about everyone else lol...




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RemoMoxey
Wed Jan 21, 2004 2:59 pm
#56

Thunderheart, I have a quick question for you. What is the DEVs vision on what a rifleman should be?


The way it looks under the current system is the Rifleman is a sniper (as is said by the sniping, counter-sniping, and concealment trees we have......lol). Snipers (for the most part) do not work in groups, they work in pair (the sniper and a spotter). Alot of the posters seem to think rifleman should be the machine gunner, where it looks like the carbineer is meant to take that role.


That being said the rifleman should be the long range BOSS. We should do massive amounts of damage at a longer range, AND WE SHOULD BE A SUPPORT ROLE!


By being a support role I mean we should be the ones "pulling" targets for the other combat classes. We should also have a wicked supression shot (to aid in hasty retreats........lol).


Riflemen need very little help in the combat rebalancing, but I would like to see the modifiers upped on the shots that do "states" damage (such as dizzy, blind, ect.), that way we could support the TKAs, Pikemen, Pistoleers, ect. in not taking as much damage.


Also, being snipers we SHOULD be able to one shot kill most mobs (up to the high medium-low high range). I know that is not viable, because it would be used to solo, and you don't want people to solo mobs. I would like to see a conceal shot 2 (earned at master level) that would decimate (with the addition of using AIM, and Conceal) most medium range mobs (NO, we should not be able to one shot Kryats, Rancors, Nightsisters, ect.). That way we could snipe Stormtroopers (aka CANNON FODDER......watch the movies sometime) and aid the GCW. One shot killing durnis doesn't mean much, and thats exactly what you have the "SNIPER" class doing.


Another idea for that would be to give rifleman another rifle equivalent to the 50 Cal. M82-A1 Barrett rifle (the seals and rangers use these as sniper rifles). This weapon will shoot through 2" plate steel at 500m (or and engine block.....lol). Just give it a horendous fire rate. If we have a rifle that does 600-1000 damage but has a fire rate of 10-20 seconds (unaided by the speed bonuses achieved at Master Rifleman) it would go a LONG way in making most of us FEEL like snipers



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ideas
Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:23 pm
#57


What defines theRiflemanrole in combat?


Riflemen are the sharpshooters, snipers, and one-shot-killers of the game. Their role is finishing off battered opponents by targeting their weaknesses.


What basic combat elements should they possess?


Long-range attacks designed to finish off weakened opponents.


What offensive abilities?


Their attacks should be slow but deadly accurate. They should have the ability to target an opponent's weakest HAM bar or even shoot them where they are unarmored.


What defensive abilities?


Few or none. Concealment at rangeis their defense, and it may not be worth much.


What unique abilities?


Targeted shots. The abilty to pick Health, Action, or Mind as their damage, or to shoot the unarmored areas on a person (or general armor piercing ability).


Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?


The Rifleman should be able to finish off an opponent that has been battered by many, by shooting their weakest pool. This finishes the opponent a little bit faster than if a group keeps pounding on random pools.


How could/should they interact with other professions?


The Rifleman is great at long range on an unmoving opponent, but should be poor at handling anyone up close or moving (and should NOT be able to run and shoot well at all). This makes them very good against people who are already engaged with another enemy, and against Carbineers or other Riflemen who shoot without moving. It makes them very poor against anyone who is coming after them directly.


What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?


Riflemen need defense and distraction from others. Anyone who decides to approach the Rifleman will probably beat him, so he needs a good tank to get in the way, or a bunch of moving bodies to keep the enemy from noticing his position. Groups need Riflemen to finish fights faster. The Rifleman should be the guy with the finishing shot.


What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?


Accurate finishing moves against weakened targets.


Added Question: What is their weakness or shortcoming in combat?


Movement ruins them. If they move, they can't shoot, and if their target is running around, their shots should be pretty tough. Once someone gets close, the Rifleman is doomed to lose.







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tgtaro
Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:27 pm
#58

What defines the Rifleman role in combat?
The best way to describe a rifleman in SWG is someone who is able to attack from afar but with an accuracy rate of someone up close.


What basic combat elements should they possess?
All characters that have guns should have the same basic combat characteristics under marksman. It is the under the advanced profession tree where the combatants will differ. So in other words, keep the marksman tree the same.


What offensive abilities?
Ability to attack from a long range but with a high accurracy. The ability to fire more shots but remain concealed. Perhaps the ability to bleed any of the HAM bar that the person chooses.


What defensive abilities?
The ability to remain concealed/cammoflauged. Perhaps add a conceal/cammo value if wearing certain types of clothes (like the clothes that Solo's party wore in ROtJ). that would be cool cause tailors could make cammo clothes. Since my character is a wookie I'm not sure if these clothes are already avaiable since I can't wear much stuff.


What unique abilities?
More bleeds would be nice. All combat classes should be able to able to choose which HAM bar to bleed. Perhaps being able to attack from a farther range would be better. This could be done by adding a new sniper like gun that only becomes avaiable at a higher level rifleman. The gun will allow the rifleman to attack from a somewhere between 64m to 75m. This would truly a master rifleman a sniper.


Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?
The rifleman should be the ultimate in ranged support. As powerful as TKA fighters are up close, rifleman should be from a far.


How could/should they interact with other professions?
You could add more guns so that the Weaponsmiths could make weapons for higher level riflemen. May be even create a silencer add on for the rifleman. The siliencer would be a mid to upper level weaponsmith craftable item and it could be used by a mid to upper level rifleman. Perhaps a sniper rifle for the elite rifleman. I also mentioned the tailor being able to make cammo clothes for rifleman.


What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?
If a rifleman is grouped up then he/she should receive a bonus is either max dmg or in concealment cause the other people like the brawlers will be the ones getting the attention of the enemy.
With that said it would also be good if conceal shot didn't work as well as it does. As of now, a rifleman could use conceal shot and remain hidden 99.9% of the time. I say give a boost to concealment if grouped.
The rifleman should be the most vulerable of every combat class up close.

What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?
Master rifleman should be snipers. Perhaps have a shot that is super strong but takes a couple of turns to either properly aim/set up the shot or about a 15 to 20 second wait after the shot has been fired.
Make rifleman someone like bounty hunters where rifleman are also able to take out hits on a player character. Like the bounty hunter, the rifleman could go out and stalk his/her pray and try to assasinate from a far.



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MatrimHavelando
Wed Jan 21, 2004 3:27 pm
#59

Waste93 gave a great post.


I am not a rifleman and nor do i intend on going thro the profession. I am posting for the sake of balance to the game.


I just want to add, that I have not see most of you say, is that The rifleman (if playing the role of sniper) should be slow at firing, have a deadly aim, most range, and high damage compared to the other ranged professions.


If the rifleman is playing the role of 'machine gunner', it should be for support. Fast firing andhorrible accuracy. The damage im not sure about. Its debatbale. ButI wouldnt give them too much for this 'machine gunner role' or why do have carbineers?





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Tezctlpoca
Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:14 pm
#60






ideas wrote:


What defines theRiflemanrole in combat?


Riflemen are the sharpshooters, snipers, and one-shot-killers of the game. Their role is finishing off battered opponents by targeting their weaknesses.


What basic combat elements should they possess?


Long-range attacks designed to finish off weakened opponents.


What offensive abilities?


Their attacks should be slow but deadly accurate. They should have the ability to target an opponent's weakest HAM bar or even shoot them where they are unarmored.


What defensive abilities?


Few or none. Concealment at rangeis their defense, and it may not be worth much.


What unique abilities?


Targeted shots. The abilty to pick Health, Action, or Mind as their damage, or to shoot the unarmored areas on a person (or general armor piercing ability).


Should add what advantage or asset in group combat?


The Rifleman should be able to finish off an opponent that has been battered by many, by shooting their weakest pool. This finishes the opponent a little bit faster than if a group keeps pounding on random pools.


How could/should they interact with other professions?


The Rifleman is great at long range on an unmoving opponent, but should be poor at handling anyone up close or moving (and should NOT be able to run and shoot well at all). This makes them very good against people who are already engaged with another enemy, and against Carbineers or other Riflemen who shoot without moving. It makes them very poor against anyone who is coming after them directly.


What interaction / dependencies should exist with other combatants?


Riflemen need defense and distraction from others. Anyone who decides to approach the Rifleman will probably beat him, so he needs a good tank to get in the way, or a bunch of moving bodies to keep the enemy from noticing his position. Groups need Riflemen to finish fights faster. The Rifleman should be the guy with the finishing shot.


What should be their unique role in the Galactic Civil War?


Accurate finishing moves against weakened targets.


Added Question: What is their weakness or shortcoming in combat?


Movement ruins them. If they move, they can't shoot, and if their target is running around, their shots should be pretty tough. Once someone gets close, the Rifleman is doomed to lose.






You already posted this mindless drivel on the first page, Asshat.

The stupidity your posting here would gut the entire profession and turn us into useless gimps. Stop reposting this **edit** and go crawl back into whatever hole you normally inhabit, as your not an actual rifleman, therefore you opinions on the matter are irrelevant. Now kindly **edit** off.




Oderint dum metuant
Jeisyn
Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:14 pm
#61

i'm sure you know all the obvious arguments against a nerf to our speed..

1. we use unhealable pool - and even with 1100 human focus (i would love to see other races brought up to this) it's tough to sustain a lot of specials without food/buffs/drugs, and that is an EXPENSIVE habbit.


1.5.pretty hard to wear armor when you can barely get by with specials on food/buffs/drugs as it is...

I don't know how other professions expect non-humans to play rifleman, seems like an exercise in frustration to me...


1.5b - migrating the stats to max focus/mind (on human and other species) reduces the rest of our pools to the point where we NEED food and doc buffs in order to shoot more than a couple specials without stimming ourselves constantly! (and adding to our inherent frailty)


2. unless we dabble, a dizzy/KD will kick our collective asses in melee range - this is to be expected, and this is the way it is.


3. we have NO status shots other than 'stunned' status. AP/Speed/Dmg/mindshots balance our mind cost/frailty to KD+melee/lack of status specials- and we have less accuracy while moving than the other ranged professions.


3.5 If we're blinded (which is very easy to do) we are FAR less accurate - taking away our greatest advantage - accuracy and ability to deal dmg and adding to our already frail state.



all that aside, i don't see why it would be unfair to re-introduce the 2.5x melee penalty AT THE MASTER RIFLEMAN BOX (leave it off the rest of the rifle tree, this should only apply to masters) - it would ensure that melee absolutely kicks our hides and really forces us to keep our distance/play snipers/gunners that we are - no more running around like pistoleers on steroids.


that really is all that needs to be done, imo.


give us 2.5x melee dmg, then go and concentrate on fixing carbineers and pikemen - they need fixing far more than anyone else needs fixing OR nerfing. my .02



Col. Jeisyn Blackwell
Rebel Alliance
-RECON-
Ellos
Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:26 pm
#62

I am a rifleman and I only have one complaint. It does me no good to take cover. I am on the radar. The opponent can tab right to me.



If I were in coronet for example, and I were between the buildings that faced the starport and I got there overt without anyone noticing, and I took cover. It would do me no good as any enemy that came out of the door of the starport can see me on their radar and tab right to me. They already know I'm there. How is that at all sniper like?



If I had a weapon that did 1k of damage, wich is reduced by 75% pvp and mitigation, that fired at a rate of 20 and I used ( Just an example ) HS3 wich has a speed modifier of I think 3.5 I would be firing at master once every 7 seconds. If I could actually hide this might scare someone. But it doesnt, they can see me on the radar. Just like take cover means nothing in PVE. I get aggroed more under cover than i do without it.



If you are going to call us snipers make us snipers, carbineers are the machine gunners they even have shots called "full auto". Let us be snipers.


The most feared enemy in war is the one you cannot see. I want to be a sniper, one shot one kill. If I miss may TKM have mercy on my soul.





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CorporateDan
Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:04 pm
#63

I have somewhat of a good idea for riflemen. Well as many have stated riflemen are both a sniper, and a gunner. Which means they shoot with high damage at range, and they can rapidly put down advancing enemies with their speed. Well riflemen can do that, but the problem is they do both very good with no disadvantage.

So my idea is to have 2 different modes of fire for a riflman. It would be like a similair system that other games use as stances. So say in mode one of rifleman, their gun goes into a say single shot mode. Which means high accuracy, and high damage, at the reduction of speed. So a master rifleman with a medium speed rifle would shoot every 3 seconds in single shot, but do extra damage. The next mode would be full auto. Damage would be less, speed would be greatly increased, and accuracy low. So in this mode we would hit the cap of 1 second for all guns, but we would do less damage. This mode would be good for attacking those large crowds, and for appling status effects to a large group of enemies instantly.

All our specials would conform to this system too. So strafe shot 2 would not just be an AoE anymore unless you are in full auto mode. Strafe shot 2 in single mode would do extra extra damage to a single enemy, while in full auto it would do decent damage to a large area. Headshot in single mode would do extra damage to one enemy, headshot in full auto mode would do an AoE to a large area of enemies at a low damage.

I believe this will increase the strategy involved in using a rifleman, and will balance us out with the other ranged professions. So it will take our two conflicting sides, and use them effectively, instead of just mending them together making us slightly overpowered.



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Telakyte
Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:26 pm
#64

TH, please explain to me a concept:


For the time being a rifleman has an entire tree devoted to sniping techniques, giving us the clever name, Sniper. If I'm supposed to be a sniper, why am I visible on radar to any and all opponents the minute I enter 128m? Obviously my key element of surprise is nil if I cannot for the life of me hide. What's the use of going prone if my enemy sees me and simply charges at me from 64m with his adorable cute pistol?


If I'm supposed to be a heavy assault rifle specialist (as some have suggested), then I should really have some of the most amazing speed displayed in the game. Maybe not accuracy since my job is spreading bolts in a frenzy. But that'll really be pointless if everyone and their hutt inlaw sees me.


One thing I think the devs need to realize is that radar takes 50 percent of the fun of pvp out of the game.

As it stands, I can't run away and hide behind a building, I can't go prone in tall grass and become invisible even with the help of my tailored camo clothing. What's the point of fighting if you have no chance of evading your opponent? As a sniper I can't even blend in. Simply see big red dot on radar, hit tab in the general direction of said red dot, begin auto fire. Where's the tactics? Where's the point of running around mountains, buildings, trees? It's rather lacking in brain power if all you do is shoot shoot shoot, incap, deathblow. Consider your options and try doing something to limit the ability to simply target fire perhaps? That'll solve alot I guarantee.





"When life throws a curve ball, don't duck...you just might miss something"
Faikk
Wed Jan 21, 2004 8:34 pm
#65

How about adding another weapon at Novice, so you have the T21 as a machine gun type weapon with a high speed and a sniper rifle with massive damage output at a low speed, both of them long ranged weapons.


Also a multiple target covering fire action would be good.



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