Development Cycle Archive
Thread: In-Concept Open Discussion
Oh... *shoots TH in the groin*... Smuggler is a combat profession.
I like to role-play. I like to participate in the economy, to group up and to have various activites in the SWG universe. And I want THAT to pay off, not mindlessy doing the same actions over and over.
Here's the link to the thread where the discussion is most active:
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=Chimaera_Euro&message.id=20751
You will find the thread in many other discussion groups, and galaxies as well. Check it out, and give your thoughts.
Some people want to mindlessly grind for hours to grow their character, fine. Just give those who don't a shot at playing the game the way it should.
IDEAS FOR UNARMED DIRTY FIGHTING:
I'm not sure if this should be its own branch on the tree, or if it should be inserted directly into Dirty Fighting. I'll leave that ambiguous for now.
Regardless, I think it's important that Smuggler Unarmed Dirty Fighting moves be useable while a pistol is equipped in your hand (and also while totally unarmed, of course). It would be like Pistoleer's Unarmed Melee Defense moves, and would be genuinely dirty - people wouldn't expect an unarmed attack while you were holding a pistol.
I think there should be some seriously powerful unarmed moves, with the obvious catch being that you have to get very close to use them.
Possible Unarmed Dirty Fighting moves:
- Crotch Kick - operates as a Dizzyand has a low chance of a KD
- Eye Gouge - operates as a Blind and targets the Mind pool
- Finger Break - operates as an Intimidate and targets the Action pool
...and just for the hell of it...
- Pimp Slap - operates as a Stun (like Last Ditch)and causes a10-second delay (like Panic Shot)
I also think that some other unarmed/combat bonuses are in order, such as
- Melee Defense (perhaps give+2 in every tier of DF and +5 at Master)
- Ranged Defense (same as above)
- Dodge (same as above, but +5 in every tier and +15 at Master)
- Busrtrun Efficiency (maybe +10 at every tier and +25 at Master)
- Pistol Accuracy While Moving (maybe +5 atthe last two tiersand +10 at Master)
Building on their Brawler foundation, it's important that Smugglerscan take a beating at close range, which is why I'd be in favor of the Melee Defense. Dodge and Ranged Defensemake sensefrom the perspective of having nimble Smugglers jumping in and out of shadows avoiding trouble. Burstrun Efficiency and Accuracy While Moving makes sense to me in the sense that Smugglers are supposed to be quick. and evasive. Note that Terrain Negotiation is NOT in there, because that deals with the outdoors, whereas Burstrun Efficiency deals with getting the hell away in general.
In addition, there needs to be a Feign Death overhaul. Feign Death needs to have a big chunk of its effectiveness - maybe 20% or so - put in the Master-level box. It's low-hanging fruit. It's changed a bit now, but in general, anyone with a bleed shot can simply go into bleed/FD mode and solo just about anything, given a lot of time. It's too easy now. Start FD out slowly and give a big bonus at Master Smuggler. Make it ahealthy chance that even a Rogue will fail to successfully FD. The 70% chance we have currently is automatic, it seems. There needs to be a chance to fail an FD. Anda Master should have the best chance of FDing, much more than a Rogue. Perhaps give a Master a 95% of successfully FDing, and give a Rogue a 75% chance.
IDEAS FOR SPICE AND OTHER SHADY SUBSTANCES:
Bottom line - experimentation needs to work and be worthwhile, allowing us to tinker with the stats of our spices and ideally, as Masters, create our own custom spices using a variety of ingredients.
Anyway, here are some ideas:
1) Spice Experimentation - allowexperimentation to reduce downers, augment certain effects, reduce other effects, and basically make it worthwhile to use different ingredients rather than whatever's laying around. Put a big chunk of experimentation and assembly skill in the Master box, maybe 25% of the total.
2) Spice Side-Effects - give us a wider variety of side-effects - not just puking, but maybe various states like Dizzy, Stunned, Blind, Intimidated, etc. Make the side effects for high-end spices more severe and longer-lasting than the low-level spices, which should have very minor side-effects.
3) Prolonged Spice Usage- give us the ability to stack spices for up to 6 uses followed by a massive downer, etc. If you take 6 consecutive spices, don't just make it a case of simply tacking on 6 of the same downer for exactly 6-times as long - instead, add an additional10-15% penalty on top of the standard 6downers to stress the damage to the system that a hard-core spicehead takes. There has to be a hard hit of downtime and vulnerabilityfor getting such a serious benefit.
4) Add Master-Level Spices - either bump Neutron Pixie and Muon Gold up to master and install some substitutes for Spice 4, or allow the Master-level skill to be full experimentation. Either way, it would be nice to have a way to distinguish a Master's spice from somebody who just climbed the Spice ladder of Smuggler. Dabblers with Surveying and Merchant skills can destroy Master Smugglers in the spice business.
In addition to simply adding spice and experimentation, here are two peripheral issues that would bring depth to the branch:
The Poison Defense, I just like for the idea of having shady characters develop immunities to shady substances (I keep thinking of "The Princess Bride," where the Smuggler-ish hero built up total immunity to a deadly poison), plus I like the idea that nobody else in the game has such a defense. And while it would be great to allow Smugglers to use poisons - and then only at extremely close range and on single targets -I would beopposed to letting us craft poisons. That's Combat Medic territory (I'm not sure why,but that's how it is and I can accept that).
SMUGGLER-SPECIFIC WEAPON CERTS:
Another perk that many Smugglers wantis acertification in a special weapon.
Some people want to see an unarmed weapon, such as Brass Knuckles or a Garotte, which might go a long way towards making Unarmed justified in the tree.
Others want a special pistol, perhaps the BlasTech DL-44 that Han Solo had. See
http://www.alaska.net/~rockwell/starwars/starwars/hblasterpistol.html for more information (courtesy of Thorginson)
Another option is to grant a cert in aSmuggler-only weapon attachment- some kind of quick-draw mechanism we could attach to a pistol that gave us the guaranteed first attack as soon as combat were initiated. It would be like one of those forearm attachments that instantly moves a gun into your hand, ready to fire. Make it craftable by a Smuggler and take resources similar to a FAN, and make it a one-use powerup (that could work in addition to another powerup, but expire after one use). It will give Smugglers a slight edge in the opening moments of combat since we'll always get the first shot (though Smuggler on Smuggler contests could get interesting), but it won't tip things too far.
Another way of handling the quick-draw mechanismconcept- maybe less complicated -would be to give all Smugglers a special "Smuggler Counterattack" move, which would bounce the first attack of any given combat back at an attacker for full damage but no state changes or DOTs. It would effectively give Smugglers a quickdraw skill to keep them from being hit first in a fight and responding with catlike reflexes. That sounds like something that would almost have to be a Master-level skill, and I'm not even 100% confident in it.
EXPANDED SLICING ABILITIES
Make it more customizable for high-level Smugglers. Add new sliceable attributes, like HAM on weapons. Let Smugglers push a huge bonus into Minimum damage at the expense of not raising Max Damage at all. Many of us have talked about Master Smugglers getting the ability to pick the exact attributes that they'd like to boost. Perhaps another Master Smuggler ability should be to slice multiple attributes - such as HAM and damage. It might be a fair tradeoff to only allow a single Smuggler to slice a weapon multiple times - so no going to Smuggler A one day to get HAM and then going to Smuggler Z a week later to try to get damage down - the first Smuggler "makes his mark" on a weapon and rigs it in a unique way.
In addition to slicing weapons, armor, containers, and terminals, Smugglers want to slice more things, like travel terminals (for reduced ticket prices), droids (to make them do more damage or heal at a better rate), and how about, oh, MagSeal containers (!).
EPILOGUE AND A LOOK TOWARDS SPACE-BASEDCONTRABAND:
You'll notice that Underworld is hinted at in terms of content, but not really mentioned. It's my hope that we'll get a new branch to replace it -include the Unarmed bonuses I mentioned above in addition to the current PVP bonuses and hopefully some shady Pilot-specific skills like Cloaking Device, Secret Storage Compartment, etc. Make it all stackable with upcoming Pilot moves for the Space Expansion, like pistol moves are between Pistoleer and Smuggler. Maybe call it Dirty Piloting...
Okay, maybe not - trysomething likeContraband.
If I had to write a general wishlist for the overhauled skilltree, it would have these four branches:
- Spice and Poison-related bonuses
- Dirty Fighting and other combat skills
- Slicing and some defensive skills (Dodge and Accuracy While Moving - things that deal with agility)
- Contraband - Dirty Piloting, PVP,and Customs Agent Persuasion (ie, Unarmed Dirty Fighting)
- MASTER BOX - significant additions to all skilltrees, access to unique gear, ships, spice, etc, plus access to the best content (unique themeparks and quests, like RIS Armor for Master Armorsmiths)
Okay, those are probably all the best ideas I've had over the months. I'm hoping for some feedback, and I'll be sure to update and clarify anything that gives you any doubts.
Thanks!
http://forums.station.sony.com/swg/board/message?board.id=smuggler&message.id=44969
I didnt know where to throw this in at so Im doing it hear.
I really think all combat professions should get a new wepon cert at Master, it would make people want to master a combat class more instead of just dabbling in it, and it would make a big difference in Master over having all 4 boxes in all 4 trees without the master Box. It would be almost like a reward for completeing the professioon.
Also I think you should really allow some way of hiding the master badges if you want to, because now their is no real question to who you are fighting if they have mastered it you will know just by examining them so please allow us to hide our master badges to make combat a little more interesting.
TygerBlueEyes wrote:
Ho-hum....Smuggler never make the combat discussion or the crafting discussion...always caught in between....
Agreed. Its something I spoke with San about last night. "Smuggling" really is a spacey kind of profession and doing something on the ground really needs to be thought out.
With that being said, Im working on the Smuggler and Squad Leader profession revamp posts this week. Im just taking the time to put together some really nice posts so that the answers that players put forth can be easily handled and used by the dev team.
Currently, people don't say, "hey we're going out hunting, lets make sure we have a smuggler". That shortfall is something that needs to be included in the revamp thread.
Lady_Outlaw wrote:
TH - What is up with Smuggler not getting a combat profession thread?
The Devs have always considered us a hybrid fighter - what happened. Two line rely totally on combat to achieve. One lessens penalty for PvP - how much more combat do we need to make it into the threads?
Great questions Lady Outlaw. These are all the sorts of considerations that need to be in the smuggler In-Concept post.
It wasnt added in the "Combat Role" profession because its not purely a combat profession.
BabyRancor wrote:
I'm really not clear on this one.
We're going through a combat re-balance now that is set to be done March-April. Around that time you will collate the opinions of all on the percieved roles of each class in combat and begin development?
No, the development for the combat balance is being done all along. The develpment time for things like this is longer than most players realize. The "In Concept" cycle for combat roles per se is so that if players have any really great ideas pertaining what defines a profession's combat role, it can be added.
Once the basic design is done and the combat balance moves to the In-Dev phase, things can be tweaked a bit, but no major additions can be included. I thought it was important to get players ideas on combat roles and the dev team agreed.
At what point are each class' specific concerns with their current skills being addressed? At what point will you say "good enough" and start adding serious systemsfor generating content (dynamic player effects in the world for example)?
Thats a good question and it differs for each profession - - one that I am working on understanding everyday, but as a priority it gets bumped down the list a bit. I have to spend most of my time focusing on the player issues that are on the table. By the same token, it is something I think about when I look at lists of player issues. As a general rule of thumb, more focus is on the elite professions though. Novice professions are paths to elite professions, though there are some critical issues on the correspondent issue lists and I think they need to be addressed. Things like novice box/master box usefulness (master brawler, medic, entertainer/medic/scout).
Renairdor wrote:
Thunderheart, will we ever see any comments from the Development team on the future of the Jedi profession? It seems to be the highest profile profession, but with the least amount of development time.
We really need some LIVE testing on the Jedi to see if they meet whatever specification the development comes up with. I am not asking for 'PvP God' (though if you look at NPC Jedi you have to wonder...) but certainly a class that deserves some respect in combat. The development comment a few months back about Jedi being able to deal with 20 advanced professions is just not true at all.
Actually yeah.I can't say so much atm, but player concerns have been voiced. Ill be putting up the first post sometime today (if I can get it approved. It might take me a day or two to get things cleared).
Thank you for starting some threads in the In Concept forum... now how about some threads for the other Non-Combattant professions?
I'll say flat out that the devs are not focused on FPS. Thats just not true.
I will be putting up more threads, but im not going to just randomly put up threads so players can discuss issues that arent on the table. If you want to discuss things amongst your peers, there are over 40 forums to discuss them in. The dev cycle forums are to specifically talk to players about things that are being changed.
rufus102 wrote:
If it's April (or god forbid, May) and things are "Drifting" and simple one paragraph post is all it takes.
Two things:
1. The April date on the combat roles is for a later issues. The HAM balance and weapon balance is in progress. It will happen in many phases. The biggest challenge I have is understanding how long the development of any item will be and the answer is always a best guess.
2. Since its always a best guess, the pitfall is a lot of posts that really just say "men at work". If I make two or three of these, the community gets even more frustrated. My approach is that action speaks louder than words. When things go to In Test, we'll have bigger posts and more to say. Better yet, what we say will be happening and in "in progress".
The reality is that development time takes a lot longer than most players think and its just a fact of life.
Shazeen wrote:
So scout and ranger will be considered in the new combat balance pass but a profession that requires over a million weapon xp doesnt even get a thread!?!
Where are the smugglers to go?
To some degree, yes, but I dont know how much. I just wanted to make sure they werent left out.
Smugglers will go in a different thread. The "combat role" threads are very focused, though Ill be adding an aspect to the Smuggler Revamp thread that addresses their combat role.
Heh...funny...I saw someone organizing a hunting party in the Bria forums yesterday who said EXACTLY that...
Thunderheart wrote:
Currently, people don't say, "hey we're going out hunting, lets make sure we have a smuggler". That shortfall is something that needs to be included in the revamp thread.
Are you saying that Scouts and rangers are pure combat professions?
Thunderheart wrote:
Lady_Outlaw wrote:
TH - What is up with Smuggler not getting a combat profession thread?
The Devs have always considered us a hybrid fighter - what happened. Two line rely totally on combat to achieve. One lessens penalty for PvP - how much more combat do we need to make it into the threads?
Great questions Lady Outlaw. These are all the sorts of considerations that need to be in the smuggler In-Concept post.
It wasnt added in the "Combat Role" profession because its not purely a combat profession.
Thunderheart wrote:
Currently, people don't say, "hey we're going out hunting, lets make sure we have a smuggler".
Oh how very very wrong you are . . .
You obviously don't realize the hunting and PVP value of Panic Shot and Low Blow.
And ifpeople asking you to group for hunting trips isyour criteria for what makes a combat profession, Scout and Ranger are off the list, as are a few melee professions. With vehicles and mounts, all you need is a Novice Scout to make camps, and even that role will be changed very soon. There's absolutely nothing else in the Scout or Ranger skilltrees that are essential to hunting expeditions or combat in general. Seeing resists is nice, but most people already know what they're dealing with in combat.
DrevenStrobe wrote:
Heh...funny...I saw someone organizing a hunting party in the Bria forums yesterday who said EXACTLY that...
Thunderheart wrote:
Currently, people don't say, "hey we're going out hunting, lets make sure we have a smuggler". That shortfall is something that needs to be included in the revamp thread.
I am not a combat class?
- funny ... I had to do a WHOLE bunch of combat to become a smuggler.
- we have the most useful pistol specials in the game,
- >2million req. pistol XP, 50% of the Smuggler tree.
- both our preReqs are combat trees(Brawler and MarksMan),
- hunting parties love us for our ability to Park a mob with knockdown and panic shot
- The only missions Smuggler will get me are combat missions.
- I sure as heck don't hear anyone saying "get that scout, he has no other skills yet but grab the scout" either.
So I guess i am a class with a gun that doesn't do comabt and a crafter that cannot experiment on any of my products....weeee. 