Development Cycle Archive
Thread: IC 1-9: Combat Roles; Pikeman
jol69 wrote:
Thats a good point MiloPEZ. But a sword would cut right through a wooden staff or simply buckle any metal one that was light enough to wield. Never in history was there an army with large units of staffmen, and with good reason.
And that reason is, when you put metal bits on the end of a staff, it's called a "spear" or a "pike" or a "polearm".
I take it you've never tried to cut wood with a sword?
aaaaaaargh said:
jol69 wrote:
Thats a good point MiloPEZ. But a sword would cut right through a wooden staff or simply buckle any metal one that was light enough to wield. Never in history was there an army with large units of staffmen, and with good reason.
And that reason is, when you put metal bits on the end of a staff, it's called a "spear" or a "pike" or a "polearm".
I take it you've never tried to cut wood with a sword?
I suppose this might be a good spot to paste in what I had written on the Pikeman Class Definition post a little while back, since it relates to the ongoing topic. It might be too long, I apologize for that. The end points are found at the bottom, so if you don't want to read the rest, just scroll down to the bottom.
First of all, the underlying effectiveness of our class: multiple target, supposedly longer range fighters. And I think we will end up being slow with high HAM costs (it takes a lot to swing a weighted pole), that's almost a given.
Now, my discertation:
Our class has something of a split, we have staffs, we have lances/pikes. Both are technically polearms, but used differently.
1) Staffs are used in a balanced, fast combo chaining way to defend, block, counterattack, sweep, keep range and deal concussive against multiple targets. Staff fighting does not distinguish ends of the weapon, the staff is used as a whole. Staff fighting is usually quick and fluid, not fast, but quick due to the combining of momentum from one move to the next. The actual blows come fairly slowly, but blocking is done very quickly. Fast on the defense, slower, but heavy, on the offense.
2) Pikes/lances are tipped, one end of it has some device/characteristic setting it apart as the attacking end. These are/were used to keep an enemy or multiple enemies at a distance yet again, but are/were capable of powerful armor piercing blows and could be used quite effectively in defensive stances. Pikes were the only real counter to the most powerful weapon of midieval times, the armored cavalry, and were usually found in the front of a battle holding enemies at bay or in the service of a noble as a guard. All defensive positions, but as mentioned before, designed for powerful armor-piercing blows.
So, we have the staff-fighting side and the pike-fighting side. As has been mentioned previously, if you have seen the Matrix Reloaded, there are decent examples of each of these styles. Neo fighting the horde of Smiths: what does he pick up when the numbers get to great? A metal staff. He sweeps, he blocks, he keeps them at range, he uses the force of the weight in motion to deliver concussive strikes. Then, later, in the Frenchman's mansion, a couple of his henchmen grab a pike, a staff with a weighted, piercing instrument on one end. Notice the difference in styles?
Do we ignore the staff-fighting aspect and focus on the "pikeman" aspect?
I believe this is partially one of the reasons it seems our class lacks definition. Both styles are using polearms, but different styles of polearm fighting. This difference is not reflected in our actual weapons or specials.
Where do we fit into the melee balancing act? Even with 4 classes, it's a little difficult to say what specialized types there should be. It's clear we should have 1 fast, low-damage attacker, 1 slow, heavy-damage attacker. Where does the best defender fit in? Does the fast, low damage attacker get it, or the slow, heavy damage attacker, or maybe a 3rd, best-tank type with little in the way of offense (doubtful)? Then there will be the one class that is the most well-rounded. At least, this is the way I see the possible landscape of melee, this is the way it typically is, right?
- TKA will most likely be the well-rounded utilitarian class. They already are: very fast (same as fencer), decent damage (but not very powerful overall, ignoring dps, no armor piercing really), and very effective defenders.
- Fencers will most likely be the fast attackers with lightning dodge reflexes, as they already are.
The issue I see is between swordsman and pikeman. Who is the damage dealer? Who is the defender? Are the two types exclusive? Currently, we are out-damaged by the heavy swordsmen. They have area attacks similar to us, which I personally do not think they should, as we are clearly the ones designed for area fighting. So...we are slow, area fighters. Do we want to be the big damager-dealers or the big defenders? It's unclear to me what we were originally desgined to be.
We have low defenses, but our weapons are primarily defensive weapons. I can see having low toughness, we fight with a polearm, we don't get hit much, ideally. We keep the enemy at a range, sweeping, crushing, etc. TKA are right up there taking the blows. They can have the big toughness, that makes sense to me. Polearm fighting is fast on the defense, slow but powerful on the offense. I do not know how we could translate this into the game. Heavy swordsmen with a power hammer make sense as a super slow, extremely powerful damage-dealer.
Perhaps we could see ourselves in a position where we are excellent defenders, *** not natrually as in toughness, but in blocking and keeping the enemy on his back and away from us so that we do not get hit. *** But when we do attack, we should be able to deal crushing strikes because of the force we put into swinging the pike/lance/staff. Lots of crushing all the time, and definite bleeds if the weapon is tipped/has an axe on one end. But I cannot say we should do more damage than a power hammer, thinking of things in ideal terms. A hammer cannot be used effectively at all for defense, it is a purely offensive weapon, and very slow.
After trying to work all this out in my head, this was what I wrote first:
I think I would say we should be very good defenders, the absolute, unrivaled best in keeping an enemy at range and on his back, the best at blocking. We should be slow, low on natural defenses. We should have crushing damage, the heaviest behind heavy swordsmen, who I think should have the best, heaviest damage and almost no defenses.
But, after I wrote the above, I looked and saw that it is remarkably close to the current situation. I was stumped for a while. Then I saw what the difference is. Currently, we are not good defenders at all. We have nothing that makes our KD better than anyone elses, block is worse than dodge or counterattack. We do have the good offense, we always have. It would be better if we had the 4x damage modifier at master. That would fix our offensive issues right there, I think.
What is left to change then?
Defense: the ability to keep an enemy at range, area attacks and specials that are more than just damage and sometimes dizzy or stun. We should be the best at area attacks and defense! No questions asked, the best. We should be able to keep an enemy at a distance, that's one of the main purposes of polearms: range both in defense and offense.
Accuracy: I don't care if we still have negative modifiers, just make it better. We should have better accuracy.
Area attacks: We should be superior in area attacks, we are not at present.
Offense: We need some more offensive capabilities, our damage needs to be raised some.
Advantages:
Area attacks/defenses - the best of any class, unquestionably, hands down.
Best ranged melee defense - keep the enemy at range, keep them on the ground, all of them. Keep the enemy out of range for them, but in range for us and our attacks. Perhaps the weapon acting as a kind of armor boost, as some have already mentioned above. Nice idea, because our defenses are all in our weapon. We are very fast defensively (imagine twirling hand-over-hand a staff, blocking incoming sword slashes or punches). Our defenses make us great for being up front in a group, giving us a good group role.
Offense - 2nd most powerful. Crushing blows and heavy bleeds. Lots of bones being broken. We have a lot of momentum to use when attacking (see disadvantages). And the addition of a vibrating axe at one end means great armor piercing and bleeds.
Disadvantages:
Speed - We are quick and fluid when defending, but quite slow on the attack because we have a lot to swing around from whatever defensive position we are in. And if it's a pike, it's going to be heavy. Except for the power hammer, the slowest melee class overall.
Natural defenses - Lowest natural defenses, once an enemy gets past our staff/pike, we're in a bad position, not much we can do. Our only defenses, which are superb, are in the use of our weapon.
HAM costs - high HAM costs. If we're swinging around a heavy pole, defensively and offensively, we're going to be using up a lot of strength and stamina. It makes sense that we would have painful HAM costs, but not as much as we have now, seriously, it's just ridiculous what we have now.
antares
master pikeman
Redundant vs. Unique Abilities
I believe this concept would truly give the pikeman a unique purpose in game.
Since there is a huge disagreement on who should be the ultimate damage dealer in terms of Damage Per Second between the Pikemen and the TKAs. Keep the TKAs the hardest hitting of the melee tribe and have the pikeman do the lowest damage to HAM. Then to make up for the pikemens low damage output, make them do extreamely high amount of damage to their opponents armor. If I pikeman gets5 hitsat close rangeon a Commando, Bounty hunter, or any other class that has permenently sealed themselves in aDarth Vader like suit of Composite armor, have a piece of armor become destroyed and disappear right off the opponent.
Ya....the idea is pretty out there, but it make the game more "Starwarsy" if everyone wasnt wearing the same armor, in a variety of contemporary colours.
It would also stimulate the economy as it relates directly to the armor industry.
Im no pikeman, but if you pikeman want to be "feared", here is your unique ability to strike fear into the hearts of you opponents by destroying their "priced second skins"
Travixius wrote:
I don't agree with antares on a couple key points ... to say that we need a slow defense and a higher HAM cost is just crazy
I agree, I never said higher HAM costs, I said they should be high to compensate for the great damage we would do, but not as high as they are now. I called our current HAM costs "ridiculous."
But I was saying that our disadvantages, to offset our advantages, should be high HAM costs, slow speed generally (fast on defense, slow on offense is what I said, I believe), and low natural defenses. Because, honestly, we should be awesome at keeping enemies away from us, at pole's length. That's the whole reason for having a polearm of any sort. But once the enemy gets past our pole defenses, we're in a bad situation because we've lost the large advantage we have. Hence, super good block (the right kind of block), but low toughness.
antares
master pikeman