Development Cycle Archive

---

Ashet wrote:

I'm not sure how this will all play out, but I must say I am willing to give it a try and see how it goes with an open mind.

I do want to say that my guild is a mixed guild - Rebels, Neutrals, and Imperials - who play together for fun and the GCW comes in second. We are on Dantooine, and if the occupation ever 'comes to town' for either side and causes our guild to split, a lot of people will be leaving the game.

---

My guild is also mixed, but I don't see a split as a result. I can see us having our own guild-based PvP for fun and ribbing each other about faction control.

No matter what the changes or how they affect us, it is important to remember that the chief objective of the game is to have fun.

FOR ALL THE NON-COMBATANTS

WHO FEEL THAT THEPROPOSED CHANGES ARE UNFAIR AND NEGATIVE

Intoduction

I am NOT a PvP'er (except when my city's bases are attacked and I might CHOOSE to defend them) and generally try to avoid both PvE and PvP combat in favor of running a successful in-game business.

Most of the arguments against the proposed changes here (or even against the existing TEFs)are made moot if you are willing to change your perspective and look at things in another way...like the perspective Iwill gladly provide below

I have tried to keep this as simple and as short as possible,so I may not have addressed EVERY situation, butI believe thatthe general principle holds true across the boards. Sorry itstill ended up very long.

Key Points to Keep in Mind

1) The GCW may be currently broken, but it IS supposed to be the basis for the entire game. The recent proposed changes show that SOE is finally trying to address this. That they are even trying to address this is a positive thing...and the fact that they are telling us about the changes and asking for feedback is even more positive.

2) GCW means Galactic Civil WAR. When you choose to join a Faction, you are not simply showing support, you are choosing a side in the war. I recognize that this is not always as simple as telling someone to "Go Fight or go Civilian"...as many combatantswill tell you... but it is not as complicated as some non-combatants make it seem...so please read on!

There is a very important (and often overlooked) distinction to be made regarding Non-Combatants and Factions:

Private citizens (i.e. non-combatants)canbe sympathetic to a cause without having to be a member of it. I believe that much of the confusion and aggravation surrounding both the old (current) TEF system and the proposed changes is that players did not understand the difference between being sympathetic and being a member. Unfortunately, many players saw it as an"all or nothing" affair...you couldn't support the Rebellion unless you were part of theRebellion.

Example: In real life, Flying Cross (a uniform manufacturer) chooses to supply the US military with uniforms. As a supplier, they can be considered sympathetic to the United States government, but neither they nor their employees are members of the US government. The USO entertainers like Bob Hopeare sympathetic to the US Navy, but they are not members of the US Navy. In SWG, these people would all be Civilian, yet they would play a critical role in both the economy and the GCW itself.

In short, you do NOT necessarily have to join the Faction to support it.

3) Non-combatant players ALWAYS (even now under the TEF system)can make choices toavoid combat AND to get assistance from other players. Some of these choices are detailed later in this post.

4) Many players believe it is up to SOE to provide a safe environment in which their character is virtually guaranteed to be successful. They overlook the "risk vs. reward" arguments and simply want all the rewards without any risks.I believe that without risk,the rewards we get would have little or no value...just as without reward there is no reason to take risks. A great deal of this game was designed so tha the players would face risks...the risks are what make this game interesting. Whether it is the risk of combat, the riskof aCritical Failure during crafting, or the risk that no one will buy the items on our vendors; risk is whatkeeps this game interesting to the majority of the players...we don't know for sure what will happen when we log on each day.

The Two Perspectives

As I see it, the changes proposed in this thread will only "hurt" thecrafters/entertainers who do not want to interact with other players. Indeed, these changes actually favor and promote playstylesthat have the "MMO"in mind...which is the target audience for SWG as opposed to other Star Wars games. It is a simple matter of perspective. Here are the two basicpoints of view:

Player #1: This playerwill complain because they do not want (under any circumstances) to actually fight in the GCW they just want to profit from it. These people fail to grasp that with greater rewards (ability to craft Faction Armor for example) comes greater risks...and that this idea is at the core ofthe way SWGwas designed and intended to be played.As a resultof thislimited point of view, they only see three options (I have included a sample "argument" after each) :

1) Be left out of the GCW by goingCivilian andbe cut out ofthe Faction-related businesses. "This is unfair to players who want to craft factionitems or service Faction playersbut aren't interested in fighting NPCs or the uber-leet PvP gank squads."

2) Be forced to take onsome combat skills (and engage in occassional PvE) against their will. "This is unfair because not everyone who chooses a side in a war should be subject to the war itself. Crafters play just as important a role as combatants, and shouldn't be forced into combat if they don't have or want combat skills."

3) Leave the game. "This is unfair because, well, webought the game like everyone else did."

Player #2: This player who understands that this game is about challenges and choices. They realize that they can still profit from the GCW without exposing themselves to all the risks associated with the joining a Faction. They further realize that weighing the risks and beneifts is an integral part of the way SOE intended us to play the game. Most importantly, they understand that this game is not about being inherently balanced at all levels, it is about each player finding a balance for themselves. As a result, they seen many more choices where Player #1 only saw three:

1) Analyze the risks/benefits and decide that the benefit of being a Faction memberis not worth the risks associated with a war. He/shechooses (is not forced) to go Civilian and choses to only sell/service members of the faction they prefer. They in effect trade away aportion of their business (i.e. Faction crafting)infavor of greater personal security while still supporting their desired Faction...balance found.

2) Analyze the risks/benefits and accept the danger involved in choosing sides in the GCW. Rather than "waste" XP on combat skills, they accept the risk of being caught and decide to simply make smart choices regarding their travel(and where they set up "shop"in the case ofentertainers)in the hopes of minimizing the risk. They have traded their freedom of movementfor a decreased chance of beingseen by the enemy...balance found.

3) Analyze the risks/benefits and accept the danger involved in choosing sides in the GCW. Train in some combat skills to help protect themself. They have traded some of their character's available skills in favor of being able to defend themselves...balance found.

4) Analyze the risks/benefits and accept the danger involved in choosing sides in the GCW.Group with other players who have combat skills to protect them...which fits right in with the "Massively Multiplayer" concept that this game was designed around and SOE is trying to promote.When choosing to focus solely on their non-combatant activities, they recognized that they would need protection from the greater risks. They have traded some of their "independence" for the safety that comes in seeking out and Grouping with other players...balance found.

5) Analyze the risks/benefits and accept the danger involved in choosing sides in the GCW.Team up with or hire other players (like Smugglers) to help them collect, transport, or sell their goods. Building ingame relationships with other players who have complimentary skills/abilities is exactly what the "Massively Multiplayer" concept is all about. By choosing to utilize the assistance of other players who's skills compliment their own, they have increased their ability to be successful in game while further reducing the risk to themselves AND promoted the concept ofactually playingwith other players. They have traded theirsingular game experience for the advantages that other players bring to the table...balance found.

6) Chose a combination of the above tactics which best works for them.

Note: Leaving the game, whilealways an option, is not viable for Player #2 since he/she is interested and entertained the challenges that the game presents, instead of being scared off by them.

As you can see above, the point of view of the individual player can determine whether the proposed changes are game-breaking or not. The second player tends to take a larger view of the game, and sees opportunities that Player #1 missed. By becoming more involved in the game, Player #2 both reduces their risks and increases their chance for success. For what it's worth, I consider myself more like the second player category.

Summary

I guess what I am really trying to say is that the entire game, whether you are a non-combatant or a full-fledged PvP'er, comes down to individual choices. You can choose how you look at the game, and you can also choose to either find a way to work within the basic premise of the gameor choose to rail against SOE because the game isn't what you expected. I think if you choose to look at things using the perspective I've given above, Civilian does become a viable option for some non-combatants, whereas joining a faction remains logical for others. Either way, non-combatants can still contribute in a meaningful wat to both the economy and the GCW.

For me, it is much more interesting and funto find ways to work within the system (and work it to my advantage) than to simply complain that it is unfair and ask for the challenges to be taken out. I seek ways to make the game more interesting and want more challenges from SOE, not less. By doing so, I open myself up to a much more rich and interesting gaming experience. I wish more people could be like Player #2.

Message Edited by Guamarhea on 02-09-2005 04:53 PM

Message Edited by Guamarhea on 02-09-2005 04:56 PM

---

admiraljz wrote:

We didn't pay George $8 each time (plus $14.99 for the DVD) to watch a series of movies about chefs trading food to Bio Engineers so they could craft better components for tailors to make new leotards for dancers. I, personally, paid to see Luke Skywalker and Han Solo shooting Storm Troopers (and Obi-Wan and Anakin cutting up battle droids).

---

---

Ruh wrote:

But my main response to your complain is...if you cant fight in the war, don't join it.

---

---

Calandryll_SOE wrote:

---

Yogol wrote:

---

SOETyrant wrote:

Jeez people, we are not eliminating a Civilian/Neutral/Crafting lifestyle. But the GCW will affect the environment.

---

Yes you are. You are forcing people to PvEagainst scanners. And don't say "then don't carry sliced stuff", because that is impossible, sliced stufff is up to 30% better. so, yes, you ARE forcing people to fight or die.

And there is no escape, not evenfor people "on leave" (which is by far the most reidiculous term I ever heard, BTW, why not just call it covert ???)

---

Gordon's comment was about those people who are not in a faction. If you aren't in a faction you won't be attacked from a scan.

---

---

Saabotage wrote:

---

Calandryll_SOE wrote:

---

Yogol wrote:

---

SOETyrant wrote:

Jeez people, we are not eliminating a Civilian/Neutral/Crafting lifestyle. But the GCW will affect the environment.

---

Yes you are. You are forcing people to PvEagainst scanners. And don't say "then don't carry sliced stuff", because that is impossible, sliced stufff is up to 30% better. so, yes, you ARE forcing people to fight or die.

And there is no escape, not evenfor people "on leave" (which is by far the most reidiculous term I ever heard, BTW, why not just call it covert ???)

---

Gordon's comment was about those people who are not in a faction. If you aren't in a faction you won't be attacked from a scan.

---

What about people carrying spice or sliced weapons! THEY SHOULD BE ATTACKED IF SCANNED!?! Shuoldn't they? I'm a Smuggler and while I do have a 95% chance at suscessfully passing the scan... Thats not alot of fun...... Honestly. <---Never mind that. What about PvE Neutrals who are carrying spices and sliced weapons? NOTHING happen to them then?

---

---

Barafu wrote:

Sounds great devs! Don't let all the confused people and whiners get you down. Keep up the good work.

---

Yes Devs keep it up, and don't listen to the Jedi whiner again, they alredy have every thing they want.

The Imperor don tolorate neither Dark or light Jedi.

If a Jedi want to avoid a scan he has to group with a Smuggler

---

JediNizar2 wrote:

---

Barafu wrote:

Sounds great devs! Don't let all the confused people and whiners get you down. Keep up the good work.

---

Yes Devs keep it up, and don't listen to the Jedi whiner again, they alredy have every thing they want.

The Imperor don tolorate neither Dark or light Jedi.

If a Jedi want to avoid a scan he has to group with a Smuggler

---

---

SmugglinZane wrote:

From Calandryll:
We seem to be on different pages here, so let me clarify. Factions that "hate" you may still attack you. Nothing about that is changing. I just wanted to make it clear that the calling of reinforcements will only be done if you are scanned and are of the opposing faction of the one that controls the city.


Indy: If I understand that quote right, If you have -5000 CorSec faction, CorSec WILL attack you, no matter if you are neutral or factionned.

---

But they attack you anyway because they hate you. The scan is as meaningless as the fines in this point.

---

There's a good reason not to attack Corellian Security (CorSec), once you establish yourself as a cop killer, don't you think they would attack on site? It's not like you're going to accidentally rack up -5000 faction on anything. The only reason any faction would attack on site (other than just being aggro to begin with) is if you've been slaughtering their comrades, at which point I think you've earned the penalty of being attacked by them whenever they see you.

I don't see the problem people have with a -5000 faction enemy attacking you on site.

Message Edited by DeQuosaek on 02-09-2005 12:59 AM

---

Nate714 wrote:

imperial NPCs attacking imperial jedis is totally messed up.

If this goes into effectdark jedis will not be able to travel, even those who keep themselves a total secret and never spark saber in public need to travel to get buffs and heal fatigue.

unless darkjedis get autobuffers in their houses(which would be unreasonable), this idea is TERRIBLE.

---

The Empire is hunting all Jedi at this point in time. It's one of the risks of being a Jedi. You didn't see Obi Wan (in the original trilogy) walking about in the open too often because he knew he would be hunted down. You'll notice as soon as people saw his lightsaber in the cantina he had StormTroopers coming after him in the next scene. And as far as Dark Jedi being hunted... well, you didn't see any Dark Jedi besides Vader and the Emperor.

Besides, Imperial NPCs will ot just attack Jedi on sight like you make it sound. If you are scanned and found to be a Jedi (of any kind) they will attack, but only then.