Development Cycle Archive

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SWG-Runesabre wrote:

Greetings!

I have reviewed this thread thus far. From what I have evaluated, here are the top concerns with the changes to experimentation in Publish 7:

1) Quality and frequency of certain rare resources. Certain resources spawn very infrequently and when they do they are usually low quality.

2) Variety in the crafting market. There aren't enough meaningful attributes that people buying crafted goods care about thus making it so every crafter will be experimenting on the same attributes for weapons, armor, etc. producing clone products.

Thank you!

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That is a good start, but still misses one of the major concerns. Simply put with this change everything by masters will be identical (provided they use the same resources). As the system currently is there is room for a small difference. Often there is a point or 2 left to use in experimenting a second line. The line chosen allows your items to be difference from anothers because they may chose a different line. With this change it looks like it will always take all 10 points to max just one line. There was a chance proposed several months ao that did that. It was rejected. Why? Because that makes crafting less fun, less engaging, and all items will be completely the same because regardless of how many good experimentation lines the item has only 1 can be effectively experimented on.

I don't know much about crafting yet, so I'm having trouble making out what this all is.

My question is:

Will this negate the need of high quality meat for the best meds?

Meat is a great source of income from Scouts.

The market rate is overly inflated right now do to holos, and I expect it to drop back to reasonable. Even as a Scout myself, I think that will be a good thing.

But I would like to know if it will be worth my while to try to get the best harvested stuff to sell to docs and other crafters who currently crave the highest quality.

I agree, this system will only favor the old established crafters with millions of the best rare resources horded. New crafters will not stand a chance, but as opposed to now where we can make and sell decent equipment even with lousy resources, just ata bit lower price than the elite 12 point masters, our post-patch equipment would require all points to max out those measly 40-60% effectiveness and leave secondary lines untouched, making my new 45% base, ultra high HAM composite unsellable (reduced demand) and further increase the price of the elite master's composite to 1mil+ (increased demand, lower supply).

The elite masters don't need more money - most already have more than they could ever spend, while new masters would have to run missions for 3-4 months just to pay the upkeep on harvesters, and hope for some resources to spawn in decent quality, allowing them to finally make a sellable product. And this is just for masters - right now it's almost impossible for a grinding crafter to make a living, and this change will make it even harder as they don't even have the 10 exp. points.

If this change goes live, I will surrender all armorsmith skills and engineering/domestic lines of artisan and make my money selling resources. Much more profitable, for only the moderate skill point cost of the Business and Survey skill trees of artisan, and doesn't even require half the work of a full-time crafter. Or maybe start competing for the skill tapes in the Borgle cave, as those experimentation tapes are going to be worth even more after this change.

Please don't take the fun out of crafting - I'm already suffering from lousy resources (MA=53 OQ=63 SR=611 UT=446 Kiirium Steel is the best and only spawn since I mastered more than2 months ago) and making me more dependant on perfect resources will just kill whatever business I managed to get before this patch.

For some reason I can't edit in this thread. Reprinting with minor changes for clarity. . .

Basically I'm seeing 2 things.

1. If you have an item where you put all your experimentation points into one attribute the system works great (like speeders and some meds). However I have read of docs who are having trouble post patch making the same quality of meds using the same resources that they had before pre patch. It could be too early to tell though.

2. If you have 12 experimentation points you are in better shape and havea greater chance of making a quality product (like the Test Center 12 point master in this thread but even he has changed his mind).

However if you only have 10 points AND you experiment in multiple attributes during experimentation (in other words roughly 90% of all crafters) then you will see a definite decrease in overall item quality across most of your goods.

Am I reading this right?

Just to put all the issues in one place from what I've seen here:

1.) The only experimentation that benefits from the new system are those things that are crafted with only one line being experimented on; All multi-line attempts are effectively quashed by low effect rates for points placed at such a low level of pre-experiment experimentation.

2.) Crafters with more points will be able to make significantly better single-line items (wether single-line by schematic or by choice) than others. These crafters will be only slightly more capable of producing a multi-line item; Miniscule bonuses on the secondary exp-line with the same main-line effectiveness.

3.) Due to the curves being so skewed with the experimentation at the low end having such a small result on the end product, novice crafters become even more useless than they already are.

4.) Due to the effectiveness of points put in at the high end, a crafter with 2 additional points (total of 12) will be able to make a *proportonately* much better item than someone who has only 2 points to spend. Example: (all values are arbitrary and made up for the purpose of the arguement) If putting in two points at the bottom end of an experiment line raises the effect on a Scope from an ideal range bonus by 1 point, then putting in those same points at the top end of the scale will raise it by 3 points.

Here's a potential solution that I see:

Make points at the bottom end worth a lot to get the items stats up, make points in the middle worth enough so that you know they are there, and make the points at the top worth a little more than the middle ones. Set it up so that maxing the main line takes at most 8 points with good successes. (and fix the whole '"good" success breaks the product' bit while you're at it all) And make the actual %-experimented change INDEPENDANT of the resources (a.k.a. it would be possible to make a weapon while still a novice that you'd not have to experiment on at all for it to be maxxed if you used ~985 or better resources)

Here's how it counters the points listed above:

1.) If points at the bottom are worth more, then diversifying yields better results with fewer points taken out of somewhere else. Translation: I can still make my Weapon Scopes with a +21 ideal range modifier while dropping the HAM costs by 4 (down to 8)... I might even be able to make them better than that, with lower HAMS due to a better curve at the bottom. The end result is higher quality products overall, and diversity which gets crafters world-renowned (which is good for buisness!)

2.) Points at the top end are worth less than those at the bottom, meaning that those out there who can spend close to 100 million on those two points see a difference, but it's not a marketbreaker as the current system has it set up.

3.) Since points at the bottom end are worth more, lower crafters would be able to make products that aren't completely worthless, given how much I diversify my weaps, it's possible that someone lower in the weaponsmithing tree can almost equal my damage/delay but can't do that and beat my other stats. The new guy gets a boon and I still make superior and diverse weapons.

4.) Points at the low end are worth more than anything else in the crafting process. I think this would ultimately knock down the holocron-like prices of experimentation tapes. Under the current "new" system, people like me would never be able to make weapons that will make them the money to be a better crafter. (or you could just give 2 +10 tapes to everyone, ala Christmas =D)

Some Fringe Benefits of my idea:

1.) Prices on tapes come down to more livable sums. At 2/1/0/3 rifleman I'd have to run 40,000 missions to buy enough tapes for the 2 measley points (80 million bucks, assuming it's a good day)

2.) More diversity through higher low-end experimenation performance.

3.) Resources don't play any MORE of a part in crafting than they already do. Letting the resources determine the %age of effectiveness gained, even though indirectly, is just a horrible idea all the way around. Compounding this is the fact that there are some resources that absolutely SUCK for stats.

4.) Dissolution of a much larger pre-nerf market before it starts as opposed to a whole new pre-nerf market where all the masters who have schematics and resoures for years get all the money and everyone else quits crafting or, worse, playing because they can't afford the new prices on "pre-nerf" stuff and will not be able to do anything without it. (It *IS* possible to crash the economy, ya know, and things are pretty out-of-proportion as it is after the whole holocron mess)

Well, theres my ideas and how I see they can help. I just goe done working a 12 hour shift all night, and likely forgot something blatently obvious. Please feel free to comment/edit etc my ideas. Overall, though I think it's a far sight more productive than what is currently going on in TC. Also, my concepts have some benefit to those of us who like to diversify, without hurting the single-line items.

I applaud all of you who have read the whole thing.

The only change that should be made to the crafting system is to drastically reduce critical failures for Masters. Obviously the experimentation changes are botched, and greatly harm everyone except the handful of crafters on each server who have +experimentation tapes. And Master Artisans--but I fail to see why they NEED more benefit. I have a Master Artisan, and the items he crafts are just fine as is.

This is not something to be "tweaked." This is not something to be rethought or pondered. This is something to be scrapped completely and forgotten, never to be considered again.

How can it be that anyone would think of it another way? If anyone does, it's only out of embarrassment of otherwise having to admit that they made a bad judgment call.

Please eliminate this awful new system--leave us the old system, and reduce critical failures.

After sitting here and reading though all of the post I have to agree this is a BAD IDEA!!!!

I have done several crafting classes and found I like them better than the Combat classes... But this change to the Crafting system this late in the game will destroy the Player Ran Ecnomy that was created by this game... and was a goal of this game.. Currently I have two accounts and both are crafting classes... ONE Master Medic/Master Doctor/Chef in trainning and my Main who is a Master Artisan and an Armorsmith in trainning...

This system does not foster any newPlayer entry into any of the elite crafting classes because you want to monkey with the experimentation system...

As stated above the establised 6 to 8 month masters will dominate the field because they have a larger store of HIGH END resources and completly remove the new Crafters from being able to compeate againts any one who is established... This Create Monopoliesand prices rise higher and higher until the point that a new character has to play for 6 month just to buy thier first NON CDEF weapon... because prices will just skyrocket...

That does not foster new character development and or New Crafter characters... Honestly it if this Plan to change the crafting system goes into affect it will become a personal mission of mine to tell all new crafters go and create a combat character.. You will never make a living in this game as a crafter... and you will be very angry for most of the time...

As the crafting system stands now it is not broken.... DO NO CHANGE A system that is not broken.... your time as developers could be better spent enhancing and fixing know bugs that are constently reported to you then to sit down and create apoorly thought out idea of changing how resource quality will effect people who trying to play a crafter in this game... You are waisting time by contiuing to NERF things that are not BROKEN and a change like this will destroy the Incomming crafting community...

Also considering that there are more classes that have some form of crafting attached to them... this effects more than just the Crafters... This effects every Scout, every Smuggler, Every Mucisian and every JEDI... This will effect every combat class.. and It will just destroy the entire player econmoy... BAD IDEA, I say again...

Established masters may think this is great I can corner the market with things labled "PRE NERF" and I will make millions... I have to say to you... you all ready have millions... you have nothing to spend it on... You already have a strong player base... But then you will contently have to buy up at 100cr a unit ofthe PERFECT Materal just so you can meet your supply and demand because theres no onewhois lessa established masters below you taking up your slack... your Game just went from a game to a full time job...

This is the second time this Idea has come up with the developers and it has been shelved once... IT NEEDS to be tossed out and burn any note you may have for future developments on this IDEA of changing the crafting system...

THINGS THAT NEED FIXING!!!

1) Crtical falure rates... A mastercrafter anythingshould not fall every 8th combine... the number should get higher every level of the experimentation tree that the crafter gets so that at novice a Crafter fails every 8th combine... and at master they may fail once every 16th or 24th combine...

2) Bugs that have been reported contently in almost every one of the Crafting Classes TOP 5 lists...

3) LOOTED resources need to be returned to all crafting classes... not one or two... but all.. Considering that AS,WS,Jedi,Medical all have loot items that are lost in crit falures this Kills the crafting community in general... Lets used the Armorsmiths as an example... They get the UBER RARE componets for RIS armor... (Witch is a joke in its own right, but thats a diffrent Thread)....

They a Scale of a Greater Dune Kimogila and they have 1 from the customer who wants a RIS Helmet.... The person breaks out their great resources... and beings to craft the helmet and fails the UBER Rare GDK scale is gone... There you have two completley unhappy people who just lost the componets to try again at making that RARE Item...

I will be heading to the Fourms and Directing all of the galaxies crafters except for the Test Center to take a look at this thread... As it will completely affect them and their game... and they need to place their voice in here...

I'd like to add my voice to those who think this is a bad idea...

Based off the reports by the corespondants, I don't like what I'm seeing. I'll admit it's better than the first try, but it still stinks.

All the elite crafter are basicly getting the rug pulled out from under them. "amazing" successes on experimentation still aren't "amazing" in the least. if "great" is 7%, "amazing" should be up around 10%, a big enough difference where 1 or 2 amazing successes will allow us to use points elsewhere.. right now the best thing about an amazing success is it isn't a failure. it makes a difference in the end product, but not enough.

Send this one back to the drawing board again.... you got half of it fixed, now fix the rest of it before to bring it to us again.

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R2DADROID wrote:

Thanks.

It just looked like Greek to me til you explained it.

nice forum name, by the way.

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There is also one possibility that SOE wants to down grade current items a bit, while giving chance to those who have "the best" resources and 12exp points to made even better stuff than before.

For meds this will have some effects like lower charges/med use as people will most propably go after power in many cases. Sub component powers should increase nicely while in final assemblys charges and med use will take big hit. I hope this won't hit Live without tweaked a bit.

Hrm.

I'll go on tonight and test, but this sounds like the death of Combat Medics.

We have:

aIA (1 bar)
aDM (2 bar)
aRC (2 bar)
Final combine (3 bars, 2 of which are *vital* to final product quality, and the third is still very important)

Now, with 12 experiment points I can very nearly get maximum from both bars on my 2-bar subcomponents.

The final combine:

3 bars:

1) "effect" = Damage done per tick
2) "use" = Potency, which is whether the poison sticks
3) "charges" = Charges_and_Range.

So whereas now, I really like to spread out the points, getting maximum effect (if I can), and still putting at least 2 into the potency to get it to an optimal (100+) level, while investing any spare into charges (for the increase RANGE).

With this new system, favouring single line, I will have less effective subcomponents, and vastly less effective poisons over all.

:/