Development Cycle Archive

Thread: IT 7-4: Experimentation Resource Quality

Chewato
Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:32 am
#27






SWG-Runesabre wrote:


Greetings!


2) Variety in the crafting market. There aren't enough meaningful attributes that people buying crafted goods care about thus making it so every crafter will be experimenting on the same attributes for weapons, armor, etc. producing clone products.





This I think is one of the key items. Combined with (as someone else mentioned) the items with a single line of experimentation doing better. I would be curious to see the results of a chef testing. Most of their goods have four lines to be tested.


I think the problem may be that the best an item could be (based on material qualities) is divided by the number of experiemtation points for a single experiamentation line. If this is the case then single line items will be better, but multi line items will suffer because there are not enough experimentation points.


I would propose that the multiple lines be taken into consideration by giving a +15 percent bonus per additional line. This is not enough to allow allow you to max each line, but is enough to allow you to max one line and improve others.


Another implementation would be to allow greater increases at lower levels of experimentation. This should allow making items that are mediocre (sp?) in all catagories possible while making it less likely to craft really good items with multiple lines.


Numen
Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:35 am
#28






TouYuan wrote:

I ACTUALLY TESTED THIS AS A MASTER WEAPONSMITH

(thought that needed to be bold since so many in this thread have obviously not tested a thing and are tossing out uninformed opinions)


And I like it. So far every single weapon I have producted has come out with better stats than my pre-patch weapons. This is due in part to the fact that I have 12 experimentation points, which now makes a real difference in the quality of weapons I can produce and the fact that our city is a research center which is helping pump the results up considerably. Basically, I see the ability to make much better weapons now if you are using the proper tools for the job.


Fact: Even using capped materials like Rhodium Steel, I still get a better quality product than pre-patch experimentation.


Anyways, I am loving it and my weapons kick butt now... as a matyter of fact, most all have better stats than I have been able to find on a live server in either the damage or speed category. As a simple example because everyone can make these at high quality... my pre-patch scout blasters were 77-152 1.9, using the same materials post patch the stats are improved to 80-159 1.7.





You list the one stat that people will still max.


Prepatch - Where you able to put points into HAM or accuracy?


If so how many were you able to put in post patch?


I would guess you had to spend more points in dmg/speed to max it out.





Amandil Morier - Tempest - Master Chef
Hero_DarkJedi
Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:30 am
#29






SWG-Runesabre wrote:


Greetings!


I have reviewed this thread thus far. From what I have evaluated, here are the top concerns with the changes to experimentation in Publish 7:


1) Quality and frequency of certain rare resources. Certain resources spawn very infrequently and when they do they are usually low quality.

2) Variety in the crafting market. There aren't enough meaningful attributes that people buying crafted goods care about thus making it so every crafter will be experimenting on the same attributes for weapons, armor, etc. producing clone products.


The crafting designers will be evaluating the experimentation changes next week. I would greatly appreciate feedback based on actual testing on Test Center; that will provide the most meaningful feedback we can use for our evaluations.


Thank you!





You hit the nail on the head with 2.


From a WS perspective, I am a clone of everybody else ... all new smiths that acquire the same materials I have (which due to BER13's are plentiful) ... their weapons are just as good as my weapons.


Hate to say it, but when you put in BER13's you basically doomed all crafters to produce clones as there is no real scarcity or turnover of resources. Everybody has the *best* until a *new* best spawns.


When a new *best* spawns, you simply go harvest 500k-1m of that resource ...


BER13's are what doomed the crafters to cloneville ... don't know if you can *fix* that by changing how things are experimented.


The *only* thing I can think of, as it pertains to weaponsmithing, is if Damage and Speed are *different* experimentations so you could choose which one you wanted.


Or if experimentation on HAM actually *meant* something instead of now where it's a joke to waste any base exp points on HAM's.


Durability? Right ... as if that matters at all ... folks just wear out a weapon and buy 3 more with all the credits they bought wearing out that first one.





'=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='=-*-='
Hero--[Hero Built]Weapons
~ ~M a s t e rW e a p o n S m i t hS i n c e8 / 1 8 / 0 3~ ~
[Coronet Mall, Corellia: 910, -4690]-[EPOC Mall, Naboo: -3950, 3885]
[Freedom City, Dantooine: -6040, 6160]-[Sandy Hills, Tatooine: 363, 3218]

Resource and Loot Drop Off: [Hero's Workshop, South Coronet, Corellia: 400, -6050]
Cafa
Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:31 am
#30






scruftydog wrote:





Akkori wrote:

Runesabre, turn on Character Copy and more people will be able to test on Test Center.






Agreed. I would be there in a flash.




Right behind you Ana. I cannot imagine recreating Fivo again. I may know more now and could grind it quicker, but the business cannot be duplicated. TC remains a place for full timers, unfortunately sometimes, IMO.


Fivo Asia





- Strength In Numbers - Loyal Subjects of the Empire
Asia Brothers Industries - Asia Hall SiN CiTY, Dantooine (Offers Vendor at -4703 -1404)
A player bodyguard can't protect you either, something agroes you, you are dead. The
only difference between a pet and the person, is you pay the person to stand there
and watch you die. -- Straker Atrella

Cafa
Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:35 am
#31






TouYuan wrote:





AudioOrgana wrote:


Supposedly there are five Master DE's on TC, but we haven't heard from one (save the correspondent).


Audio





Just curious, what makes you rate "hearing" from any of the DE's on TC?


They test, they report their findings through the correct channels, end of story. I am sorry, but informing you or anyone else on this troll boardis not a required part of the process and most TC players avoid this place like the plague (you personally have attributed to that). Theyuse the /bug tool in game to report what they find or they bring it up on our private boards and it finds its way to the correct people to be fixed, either way is generally WAY more effective and less hassle than posting here and getting flamed for your troubles.







Runesabre,


This attitude reflects what live people see wrong with TC. In a sense he's saying screw off to live players.


Tiny minority of players get the majority of control over the game. Period.


I think character copy is a bad idea in the sense that we cannot duplicate our businesses. Galaxy copy is a better idea, even if it required a new server for testing.


Fivo Asia





- Strength In Numbers - Loyal Subjects of the Empire
Asia Brothers Industries - Asia Hall SiN CiTY, Dantooine (Offers Vendor at -4703 -1404)
A player bodyguard can't protect you either, something agroes you, you are dead. The
only difference between a pet and the person, is you pay the person to stand there
and watch you die. -- Straker Atrella

Shann0w
Mon Mar 01, 2004 11:19 am
#32

I know how to solve the whole problem.


Eliminate all crafting from the game. Install vending machines for weapons, armor, vehicles, etc. All the weapons will be identical, all the armor will be identical. No one will have to worry about us crafters being unhappy because we won't exist. The economy will be much easier for the devs to control. There will one source for credits, missions. There will be one way to get stuff, buy it from the vending machines. Money out will equal money in. The database will be much better off because you won't have to track harvesters or factories, you won't have to keep up with my 100's of stacks of resources, or my crates of components. Heck, you could just eliminate buildings altogether, without crafting who needs houses? Just use the safety deposit box. Oh and since everything is identical, there aren't any resources or components there's no longer any need for the bazaar. Of course now you can get rid of the hunting portions of Scout and Ranger since they no longer need to harvest resources. Now the Merchant is not needed. So we have eliminated all resources, all components, all venders, all buildings, and8 professions. Of course this leaves a blank column in smuggler, medic, combat medic, doctor. But hey, all items are now identical who needs smugglers? We've eliminated 9 professions. But we can't leave the empty columns in the medical professions, what to do? I know. We'll get rid of Combat Medic. Give the poisons and diseases to the doctors and the ranged stims to the medics. Now we've eliminated 10 professions.


Now what do we have? A new Half-life mod. We could call it "Team Star Wars Fortress".


Variety is what attracted me toSWG to begin with. Everything done to limit that variety reduces it's enjoyment.


Why are such sweeping changes being made? How can the existing system possibly be fairly assessed, it's still full of minor bugs. (I still can't put Rancor Padded Armor Segments into Padded armor) Crafters have complained about ONE thing, Critical Failures. Being a "Master" should mean just that. When was the last time youwent a cobbler (who ever heard of a new cobbler shop, they've all been in business for 30 years and are Masters at their profession) and he told you, "I'm sorry I destroyed your shoes"?




Hinfist
Mon Mar 01, 2004 11:33 am
#33

Certain resourcesfrequently spawn but they have never been good conductivity. This is what many weaponsmiths are concerned about.


Just some example from resource history in Scylla (CD: conductivity, OQ: Overall Quality)


Abeiaspoium Plumbum Iron CD 24 OQ 951
Apolmate Plumbum Iron CD 65 OQ 21
Gauboceeate Plumbum Iron CD 32 OQ 661
Gigeha Plumbum Iron CD 14 OQ 812
Oukanof Plumbum Iron CD 63 OQ 251
Roahia Plumbum Iron CD 46 OQ 22
Sawu Plumbum Iron CD 10 OQ 422
Irose Plumbum Iron CD 10 OQ 972


Carbetioneris Rhodium Steel CD 18 OQ 8
Enear Rhodium Steel CD 82 OQ 251
Fekinate Rhodium Steel CD 44 OQ 676
Grotebaite Rhodium Steel CD 80 OQ 172
Twavai Rhodium Steel CD 42 OQ 683
Varilo Rhodium Steel CD 56 OQ 590


For those weaponsthat take Plumbum Iron. the experimentation on damage is gated around 50-60% and the extra experimentation points go to HAM reduction and/or range modon live. We would lose this extra points.


I hope some master weaponsmith on Test Center could verify this.


Sojourner
Mon Mar 01, 2004 2:15 pm
#34






R2DADROID wrote:

I don't know much about crafting yet, so I'm having trouble making out what this all is.


My question is:


Will this negate the need of high quality meat for the best meds?


Meat is a great source of income from Scouts.


The market rate is overly inflated right now do to holos, and I expect it to drop back to reasonable. Even as a Scout myself, I think that will be a good thing.


But I would like to know if it will be worth my while to try to get the best harvested stuff to sell to docs and other crafters who currently crave the highest quality.








It appears as ifthe resource quality will only set the maximium that can be achieved by experimentation,and notaffect the success rate of experimentation.The the qualityof resources still impacts thefinal stats of thecrafted item, in a "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" sort of way. Resource qualitywill still be important, and ifanything I thinkthismight increase the value of high quality organics.



Sojourner
---Navar Rook (Master Scout, Novice Ranger, Carbineer, Medic)
Wanderhome Galaxy
"Wanderhome Galaxy Fourms, you will never find a more wretched hive of narcissism and egotism. We must be cautious."
atimes
Mon Mar 01, 2004 2:36 pm
#35






TouYuan wrote:





JaatoWaals wrote:

With regard to those professions engaged in multi-attribute crafting, it will become even more difficult for novices to compete. Anyone who is not a master with three or more months of resource collecting behind them will not be able to participate in the market because their products will be vastly inferior to those of the old masters. Then again, seeing that I'm an old master, why am I complaining? This new barrier to market entry will ensure that I make hundreds of millions of credits. And that's a good thing, right?






This is not new by any means, novices have never been able to compete with a master who has months of resources, nothing has changed.






He means new masters won't be able to compete with old masters who have tons of "pre nerf" items for sale.



R2DADROID
Mon Mar 01, 2004 3:36 pm
#36






Sojourner wrote:


It appears as ifthe resource quality will only set the maximium that can be achieved by experimentation,and notaffect the success rate of experimentation.The the qualityof resources still impacts thefinal stats of thecrafted item, in a "you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" sort of way. Resource qualitywill still be important, and ifanything I thinkthismight increase the value of high quality organics.





Thanks.


It just looked like Greek to me til you explained it.


nice forum name, by the way.






R2



"Oh JarJar, everyone hates you but me" - Comicbook Guy
TouYuan
Mon Mar 01, 2004 5:56 pm
#37






Cafa wrote:





TouYuan wrote:





AudioOrgana wrote:


Supposedly there are five Master DE's on TC, but we haven't heard from one (save the correspondent).


Audio





Just curious, what makes you rate "hearing" from any of the DE's on TC?


They test, they report their findings through the correct channels, end of story. I am sorry, but informing you or anyone else on this troll boardis not a required part of the process and most TC players avoid this place like the plague (you personally have attributed to that). Theyuse the /bug tool in game to report what they find or they bring it up on our private boards and it finds its way to the correct people to be fixed, either way is generally WAY more effective and less hassle than posting here and getting flamed for your troubles.







Runesabre,


This attitude reflects what live people see wrong with TC. In a sense he's saying screw off to live players.





And for some reason it is ok for you all to insist, expect and feel you deserve reports from the unpaid players on TC... and you do not see that as a problem? Also, the players Audio is asking for reports from, just happen to be the same ones he comes by and flames on a rather constant basis in their own forum, what wouldgive him a inkling of a clue that these people would want to even take part in the same community as him, nevermind something more?



______________________________________

TouYuan - "The Wandering Wookie"
TouYuan
Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:06 pm
#38

Anyways, back on topic. While the changes to surpass the previous high marks are nice, overall I will change my position and say that each experimentation point needs to have more effect. What flipped me around was two things.. first off is HAM usage on weapons, as just putting a couple points in basicaly has zero effect, the second was my crafting up some Personal Harvesters. While is was also nice to be able to make a 99% quality harvester, it took every single point to fill that effectivenessbar and that happened only once.. all my other attempts came out normal at 93% and left no pointsto add even a slight amount of additional stoarage, nevermind actually fill up the effectiveness bar. This was using materials that were all in the 985+ range for the required stats, a situation in which I would have thought I would have ended up with points to burn do to the extreme high quality of the resources used.



______________________________________

TouYuan - "The Wandering Wookie"
bmiles
Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:53 pm
#39

This is a case where the rich will get richer...veteran weaponsmiths/armorsmiths with tons of money, resources, and the millions required to have +12 experimentation points and the rest of us are basically cut out of the market. Not to mention the immediate barrier to entry for any new crafters. So it looks like weapons with gated resources like the t21 will be significantly worse and weapons will cost twice as much, since only the elite will be making them. Master crafters dont need an advantage over less skilled crafters, they already have it. I did not sell one weapon until I hit master and have not lost any sales to swordsmiths or expert weaponsmiths since then. I hate this because I was really enjoying making things and building a customer base. Please reconsider this.
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